Fiberglass replacement dash 70-73 in the works!!

[madkaw]

I am meeting with the fabricator this week end to talk about making a replacement FG dash for the 240z model only right now. The meeting will be to discuss how we want to make this work as far as structure and materials. In discussions on the phone it seems for now that the original steel backer will be retained to ease fabrication time and to insure easy R&R for a stock fit.

Materials will have options. We talked about a standard FG option that would reduce cost and give folks that want a stock looking dash a replacement that is permanent and tough. It could be easily painted with texture painted to duplicate the factory look. Installation would involve removing your existing dash and separating the metal backer and installing it on the new dash. The metal backer(frame) would screw into new FG dash just like the old one.. More then likely the heater panel hole and glove box hole will be blanked and have to be cut out, pretty easy.

The CF option would be more expensive and also would have additional add-ons. The add-ons would be in a glove box door that matches and possibly the wiper panel too. We are also going to discuss the center console and a CF option for it. He said that he can use the same mold for either FG option will help reduce cost.

This process is just getting started so no prices yet. This dash is being set-up to be an EXACT copy, so there won't be any special options for gauges or such. In needs to appeal to the masses to make this worth while. The racers could easily have the option of leaving the glove box and heater blanked for gauge options or whatever. 

As stated earlier I am interested in a center console also. More then likely it would retain the original shape but have options as far as gear shifter hole location. It would probably eliminate any smaller holes for the choke levers. Any suggestions to discuss with the console?

 

keep you guys updated

[240zRoman]

Why would you want to leave out the choke lever holes.  Isn't that needed?

[madkaw]

Because they can be easily cut-out for those who need it, and those who don't(this is hybridz) can have a solid smooth console with just a shifter hole.

[madkaw]

Hey guys-this is an open topic. Another words, opinions or suggestions are welcome. I am following thru with this and I do want to get this right. Though it will be a stock duplicate, I want to make sure I don't miss anything.

 

My biggest concern is getting the shape right since I am using an older dash for the mold. I've noticed on my dash(71) compared to other early dashes there was a difference in the shape on the ends of the dash. The ends closest to the door has a top and bottom -if you will- and on my dash the upper half has a slight concave curvature while the bottom half is much flatter. BUT, on a dash that I recovered with a cap last year the bottom half was concave too-maybe more worn? 

 

Also. the indentations for the hazard switch. My dash has two indentations, but only one was used for the hazard switch. Can someone weigh in on this? 

[djwarner]

My series I, 12/70 build also has two indents and only the lower one was used to hold the hazard switch. I believe the other opening was intended for a fog light switch. Fog lights were prewired near this location. There is also flat pad to the right of the hazard switch for an on/off label.

 

As for the concave surfaces on the sides, I have concave sections near the A pillars to provide about 3/8" clearance. As for the lower portions, I have some warping but appears to be a function of age - not function. The area is backed by foam and is quite compliant. If you left the mold flat near the bottom, you would not incur any functional problems. 

[madkaw]

Thanks-this is what I am looking for.

[rturbo 930]

Also. the indentations for the hazard switch. My dash has two indentations, but only one was used for the hazard switch. Can someone weigh in on this? 

Early dashes like yours had the two indents, but only the one was used for the hazard switch, the other was blank. Later dashes had two indents, too, but the second (upper?) one was used for the cig lighter. There should also be an indent next to the hazard switch on the later dashes for an on/off label. I don't think the upper indents were the same size, but I'm not sure.

Edited May 29, 2014 by rturbo 930

[djwarner]

Went back and took a good look at the label next to the hazard switch. On the early dash, the on-off label area was not recessed but the surface under the label appears flat and smooth. I can't say whether the smooth appearance was from the thickness of the label or if the underlying surface was actually that smooth. As rturbo 920 said the later dashes had this area recessed.

[Six_Shooter]

The '73 dash does not have the indent next to the hazard switch, since it's is a pull type and not a lever.

 

Although I am not interested in purchasing a fibreglass or carbon fibre dash (I have a perfect '72 dash to replace my terrible '73 dash), at this time. I would however prefer it to have a '73 style to it, as I mentioned lack of indent next to the hazard switch. However, I think it was only '73 with this missing and earlier dashes all AFAIK had the lever type hazard switch so it might be more common for people to want that. Also being fibreglass would make it easy to fill in. I would also prefer to have the glove box and heater panel areas shaped like the stock dash to allow for use of a stock or matching replacement door and heater control panels. Using flat dashes/panels where the opening were cut out, requires a lot of work for the end user/fabricator to make fit and work right. I don't think anyone with a race car would be opposed to this either, though I'm sure there are a few that would like them to be just flat. IIRC there is already a flat/no opening 240Z dash available isn't there?

 

 

I think the '72 '73 layout, where the cigarette lighter was dash mounted would be most desirable than the earlier layout. Even if it's being retrofitted to an earlier car with the cigarette lighter in the console, this would add an extra power port spot and since it seems most people have more than one device plugged into a power port at a time any more, people may really like this. That spot could be used for other things as well, like shift lights, or auxillary switches, or..?

As far as console goes, that's kinda tough, because the two different styles were quite different, though, I would have to think that the later '72/'73 style would be easier to sell, because they were plastic and tend to be frequently cracked. I know I have looked at several to replace my original that was not only cracked but broken in two. I was graced with the gift of a good condition replacement from a good friend so this is not really a concern anymore, but if the price was right, it would be a good item to have and maybe even use as a base to modify, instead of modifying my original piece. Again here having the proper indents and opening for the fuse panel cover would be desirable, along with at least an indication of where the shifter and ashtray are supposed to be. I would prefer if the shifter hole was at least rounded over like the stock piece, but I'm sure others might prefer it to just be flat.

From what I have seen the earlier consoles were a fibreglass/composite already and tend to be in good shape.  I see far less of these cracked or damaged than I do the later ones.

[madkaw]

Thanks for the input. I will probably have the dash made with both indents and like you said they could be easily filled for those who don't want them. I really want to keep this as stock as possible so all can enjoy. The glove box and heater panel(holes) will be formed as stock. They will be filled with a flat panel, but recessed as to keep the holes fully functional by cutting the panel out-which could be done for the buyer. I was also going to make sure the "filler panel" in these two areas will be vertical enough to make the panel useful for additional gauges -for those non-stock applications. We have already discussed a CF glove box door for the CF dash and the CF wiper panel.

 

The console on the other hand will probably be custom and closer to the later version . If i'm not mistaken these plastic consoles are still available or replicas are available. The pursuit of the console in this case will be to make a CF version for those wanting a CF dash. I want to incorporate a fuse box access and make the shifter opening somewhat flexible for all versions of transmissions. Not sure how I'm going to pull that off, but open to suggestions. Like in my case with the BWT-5 trans the opening needs to be further foward.

[madkaw]

Thought I'd update this for now. The FG guy said he would be willing to tackle this but the price to do the mold is not cheap . I didn't expect it to be , but still more then I can shell out right now (1500$) I also have to repair this dash to perfection before he can even attempt a mold. He said as far as a carbon fiber dash probably in the 900$ range for a single unit, but a significant break for a group buy.

He would be using prepreg CF which is pretty pricey. The shell itself would be very thin stuff so stand offs would have to be used to mount on original metal frame. The shell would weigh nothing.

So where we stand now: I have a daughter getting married in November so all major projects are hold until then. Repairing the dash has to be done right and I don't want to rush. I also have a son with high athletic demands as far as time . So this will be a winter project when things settle done around my place.

[texis30O]

I am interested in this.  Let me know or discuss options via pm for build potential

[madkaw]

At the present time the FG guy is just getting back his autoclave machine from repair which I guess is essential for FG work.

We talked again and he felt confident he could pull this off, but it will be very involved.

The level of detail he wants to incorporate takes time. The glove box door - for example- would be done in 2 pieces as the original and the emblem would be in the mold.

It's also important for this to be an EXACT replica so it doesn't turn out to be a one off deal.

 

Another challenging prospect is to get or have a really nice dash for the mold.

The dash I took him was going to need a ton of work and I have to make sure it's straight.

[OldAndyAndTheSea]

Wow if he is autoclaving these parts. Jesus, they are going to be nice.

 

He's using prepreg, which is as good as it gets (it's impregnated with catalyzed resin and must be baked to cure, but allows for extreme low weight, and high strength modulus.), and with the compaction and consolidation that the autoclave provides.....These are going to be beautiful laminates.

 

I would LOVE to see the tooling.

 

May I ask who you are using? This is what I do for a living as well.

[madkaw]

http://www.synergycomposites.net/about.html

 

 

He's really young but has done this for 8 years now. The custom Porsche dash was beautiful. He seems to work with good materials. 

 

So since you work with this stuff-how about a little insight from Z guy to another. On a scale of 1-10, how hard will this dash be to make?

[OldAndyAndTheSea]

http://www.synergycomposites.net/about.html

 

 

He's really young but has done this for 8 years now. The custom Porsche dash was beautiful. He seems to work with good materials. 

 

So since you work with this stuff-how about a little insight from Z guy to another. On a scale of 1-10, how hard will this dash be to make?

 

Not difficult. Just time consuming. 5-6/10

 

In order to make the tooling (molds) he has to take his perfect master (plug) and somehow fabricate a flange around the plug to make a mold from. The flange is required for the process materials. (tacky tape, vac hose, peel ply etc...)

 

putting the flange on would be one of the main challenges in the project.

 

The outer skin would be one mold. - (which requires a plug to be made from)

 

The inner skin (mounting system, however he decides it) would be another mold -(again requires perfect plugs)

 

Glove box door would be easy, but as he said, 2 part mold. Inner and outer.

 

 

In order to make one part you usually have to do the following.

 

-Take master (dash in good condition) and fabricate a 6" flange around the perimeter of the part.

 

-Fair plug to make it perfect.

 

-Make mold from perfect plug.

 

-Make part from said mold.

 

 

So each of the multiple pieces need at least 2-3 steps in order to make a prototype part. Fairing of the plug, and making sure that there is no negative draft in the geometry takes the longest.

 

And he is using prepreg, which is even more time consuming, as you have multiple "debulking" stages, where in between each successive layer of laminate, vacuum is applied, and the atmosphere consolidates the laminate stack, under a bag. Usually, this is done between every 1-3 layers of glass/carbon/aramid etc...Then it's cooked, or in his case, thrown into an autoclave. Autoclave is the best quality you can get. 

 

 

I was going to, and still plan on doing this myself. But as you are learning as well, finding that illusive perfect dash is what's holding me up too.... If I had the master, I'd be off and running.

Edited July 11, 2014 by OldAndyAndTheSea

[madkaw]

You don't think you could fix an existing dash well enough for a master?

You understand that our plan was to only duplicate the outer shell exactly and have a thin shell that is held to the frame using stand-offs. We weren't trying to duplicate the inner padding stuff. I thought maybe a spray in foam filler would be sufficient to fill the gaps. Not sure what else could work. Some of those areas are thick and would add a lot of weight using FG.

 

As far as the flange stuff -he showed me the porsche dash plugs. The mold for that dash was several pieces bolted together.

 

Only 5 or 6? I guess the size is the biggest factor?  Seems to me it would be tougher then that but I don't know anything about FG.

[alwazsidwaz]

I need a dash.  Bad.

[NewZed]

The materials and process being used are very modern and will give a very high-strength product when done.  But for what the part is, it seems over-designed.  Unless it's meant to add rigidity to the body.

 

Not to put a damper on progress, just a statement.  Once the mold is built, you could spray chopped fiber and polyester resin, or even pour urethane or urea foam around an inserted framework.  Done right, it could even have a soft touch to it, like the original.   If he wants to make some money, shooting for volume might be the way to go.  

 

Another perspective.  Carpenters think about wood and nails, mechanics think about metal and bolts.  If you work with pre-preg and have an autoclave, everything looks like a structural piece.

[OldAndyAndTheSea]

I'm super curious as to his tooling. Specifically what he's using as materials for the tooling.

 

Typically, when using prepregs, or cooking parts in general, you'd like the tooling to be made out of the same materials as your parts, or, ideally, more resistant to thermal expansion.

 

Example: If you were to try to make carbon parts on glass tools, and you stuck it in the oven, you'd have a potato chip as a laminate, as the thermal expansion rates of the materials are so different.

 

So I'd imagine he would use carbon to make the tooling, as that's what, ideally, he'd make some of the dashes out of.

 

Assuming he is using the materials in that manner. 

 

And if he is, carbon molds are burly; He'd have no problem pulling 40-50 dashes easy.....Again, assuming the molds have the appropriate geometry.

 

 

 

 

This thread has made me pull my craptastic dash, and I am going to start playing.

 

For the past 4 weeks, with still two more to go, I have been teaching a sailing program here, instead of my composites business.

 

Summer temperatures wreak havoc on cure times for resin systems, so my partner (also a sailor) and I take a 6 week sabbatical in the summer months from getting itchy....

 

Because it's too hot...yeah...that's our excuse, and we are sticking to it