Suspension upgrade for a RB26? S130

[Bandit50]

Looking at the weight difference between the two L28E to the RB26, is almost 200 pounds. On a 79-83 can you manage with just a simple spring sawp or is there going to need to be a switch between what is already in place for the suspension? Do formual 1 bread Koni's for a 78 bolt in with small suspension modifcations, and new mounting plates.

 

Looking for any feedback, even chirping would be great! I would love to scare some trolls away However, those that really know me tend not to feed me after mid night.

 

Ps the RB 6 cylinder section wasn't as helpful as I hoped. If this is to much of a bother ill just go and migrate to nico.

 

Edited September 10, 2014 by Bandit50

[mtnickel]

There are many threads on spring rates.

 

I think you are lacking any replies for a few reasons:

1) You have not stated which vehicle you even have

2) You have not indicated what your intended purpose for the car is. Do you want an aggressive street car? A track only car?

3) Generics..."formula 1 bread koni's"??? which koni's? what model? front or rear of a 78? etc etc.

 

While 200 lbs seems like a lot, remember the dry curb weight is 2825 lbs. Add in 100lbs of fuel, 200 lb driver and it could be easily 1500lbs over the front wheels. 200lbs on 1500 is only a 13% increase. difference of maybe 200lb/in springs vs 225lb/in, ie, not that significant. The biggest factor will be the purpose of the car combined with how much comfort you want. 

One thing is for certain and that is it would be recommended to get coiloveres so you can get the ride height you desire. Anyways, I've chirped in enough. I suggest you state exactly what you're trying to acheive and why your research has left you with doubt.

[Bandit50]

1) Yes I did, 79-83. I mean they only made 1 model of Z for those years but let face it the suspension is the same.

2)Typical street, just want something a little more track side with look, feel and performance. Currently the car sits on the 30 year old springs and new Kyb struts.. Over all, I love how little body roll the car has now. Its repsonsive, soft yet ferm when you coner. I would love to get that with some more horsepower. 

3) All koni shocks and springs are Formula 1 and or racing inspired. Is the 1978 strut able to mount in an S130? because what I have seen, it's not unless you swap the sturt mounting plate and weld in a new one.

 

If you want to know what i have exactly.. well, it's a 1980 280ZX from Washington State. California emission car, with a L28E power-train package and I have removed the rust, and thinkened up the frame rail already with well.. Thicker gauge material. All in all the car is solid.

I just need to know what I should hunt for. Wheel hub/spindles, suspension components, drive shaft, Lucky me I have the right differential the "R200" already for the project. I also have a R180 just sitting around as well.

 

I do also enjoy adjustible ride hight, sadly so far I can't find anything that bolts to the hub of the S130 with that option and stiffer springs available, but hey that's why I am here. To find out !

PS: glad you chirped, now you get to be scared !

One wrong left hand turn and you can find yourself being T-Boned by a toyota 86. (Before)




One year passes, and some good geometry pulls, paint and it's saved from a crusher! Smiling too! (After)

Edited September 13, 2014 by Bandit50

[Bandit50]

Also I found what I was looking for! In the hood strut sections !!!! Supension team you got owned by not only one Canuck who built the struts, but by me. !!!!!

S13 S130 Swap
 

This sould be a sticky, also if you know a better swap I am all ears for a project like this.

Edited September 11, 2014 by Bandit50

[NewZed]

Post #6? - 

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/119465-rb26-susspension-upgrade/?do=findComment&comment=1119954

 

Don't forget that new posts come from people you haven't pissed off.  

 

 

Last post September 3 - http://forums.nicoclub.com/datsun-z-forum-f1241.html

[Bandit50]

Post #6? - 

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/119465-rb26-susspension-upgrade/?do=findComment&comment=1119954

 

Don't forget that new posts come from people you haven't pissed off.  

 

 

Last post September 3 - http://forums.nicoclub.com/datsun-z-forum-f1241.html

 

Hey, I took your advice. Now whats up? You have another problem with the s13 suspension thread being in the hood strut section? I know I do. I asked a question and I went to the place that IMO should have it. Yes it is a supension question, about an engine swap.

 

I hope I didn't piss you off, but man it's a question. If everyone in the world knew everything well.. They wouldn't be human. Not even a top NHRA dragracers knows everything.. Look at John Forces accidents.

 

 

Another reason why I tend to stay away from the LS1 idea there NewZed.. Is I have some horor stories of small block chev in Ontario that is famous for twisting frames boxed or not in the 1/4 mile, thats what I want to avoid. I assume everyone put an RB26 in there 280 or 240 for the same reason. To enjoy the car a little bit more.

 

Either way, I know I can make the motor, suspension has always been my weakpoint. I have learned much about it over the years but well it's one thing to know how it pysically reacts and how to find the parts to make it react the way you want it to.

 

200lbs more, is 200 lbs more in my mind, sprung weight or not. It's still mass and if you just let that sit on stock spring you and I both know. It's going to increase the body roll and well make the cars handling worse.

 

My question still remains, which coilovers, bolts into the S130 mount? and is there better options then the S13?

Edited September 11, 2014 by Bandit50

[NewZed]

 

 or would you like to birdge that good sir?

 

No, my car is blue thanks. Not red and forsale in wisconsin. If people spent less time talking down someone with a legitamit question, maybe a forums would be "friendly". Be more like "stony"maybe people will give you more respect , but hey I guess I ticked you off newzed?

I've been helpful in all of my posts.  You're just missing it.  And there is no "hood strut section" or "suspension team" (to get owned?, who's mocking?...)

 

Also, I don't know what "birdging" is, no idea why red or blue or for sale matters, and not ticked off.  I am amused and bemused though.

[mtnickel]

If you don't want all the fab of the S13 conversion, just google Ground Control 280zx. Looks like front and rear will set you back about $400 or so. Then just get shocks of your choice.

[Bandit50]

I've been helpful in all of my posts.  You're just missing it.  And there is no "hood strut section" or "suspension team" (to get owned?, who's mocking?...)

 

Also, I don't know what "birdging" is, no idea why red or blue or for sale matters, and not ticked off.  I am amused and bemused though.

 

Make a bridge, don't burn it ! and your doing a great job at it. Making that is

Edited September 13, 2014 by Bandit50

[Bandit50]

If you don't want all the fab of the S13 conversion, just google Ground Control 280zx. Looks like front and rear will set you back about $400 or so. Then just get shocks of your choice.

 It's not the fab, that stuff is easy for me, lathe work isn't though. I am just wondering is there is something better or if that's as good as it gets? I would like to try to keep as much as I can of the original as possible to lower the $$$$ but honestly, I know I am going to need 4 news struts, brake rotors, and brake calipers plus the stuff behind it that powers it, like a break booster. That stuff was and is obvious. The questions is though what do you go for, what do you hunt for? I like the idea of an S13 suspension period. I know what it is, what it's out of. The problems with it to me is it's big, and if you don't put enough weight on it, well it will be no better then the opposite which would be stock springs under heavy load.

 

A S130 is a light car, lighter then I think most people know. Most of it's weight comes from the diff, engine, transmission wheels and shocks. The car it self is not a lot. If you have too firm of a suspension, your car will Under-steer. Which is very very bad, you want some small weight transfer especially with an RB because of the inertia so that the front tires gets some grip and make better cornering.  which means the back end need to be a little softer in order for it to keep it's grip. Other wise like the front it will well be and easy drift. the S13 offers all of the options however it's the major bridge for any major RB conversion. I can see why so many love it (now) as looking into it even more it was used in a lot of cars. More then what I expected.  I knew the Silva, and the R32 even R33. but the 240sx as well. give me plenty of options of find a perfect fit, and can be used now and later in the project as it gets going The ground controls are not that bad either though for less fab.... Ill think about my options more on that. I guess.

 

Again, it's not like I don't understand the concepts of the physics involved for this, the issue for me.. is finding the parts that work, and you guys got me thinking and looking even deeper.. Thank you, i think i have some of my hardest questions awnsered already.. I just need to dig deeper, but again you (this community) together knows more then (me) one person Period.

 

The idea is to keep the stock balance as much as possible, it's perfect in my eyes. The problem is adding 200lbs to that. Making the curb weight 3024lbs you can get away with 50-100lbs difference in the suspension as you the operator add that weight to the car and it makes it slightly nimbler.

 

Stronger brakes, mean quicker weight transfers which can be bad and also good if the suspension is stiff (good for track cars, not me). Weaker brakes means more where on your current rotors will wear and sketchy stops and early breaking not hard to compensate for a few months, however longer then that, will be just asking for bad things.  You want to find that perfect in between, if you ask me it's dual piston calipers on the front, and i mean you will need duals on the back for the initial  weight in breaking for S130 280Zx, is the rear contact first. Like most cars. So it needs to be strong if your going to stop the Rb26. hmmm

 

Again, guys thank for getting my mind working around this and looking deeper for stuff to bridge in and fit. I think the trick is to start with the R33 and think backwards, to ask myself what am I going to need to stop 3000lbs of car..

Edited September 13, 2014 by Bandit50

[G-E]

I think you're rambling

 

I'm going to let you in on a secret, s13 front suspension sucks, it sucks on an s13 too, most of them just don't know it... that's why there's so many aftermarket replacements from pbm to wisefab, and none are particularly cheap. It goes far beyond rodends vs bushings.

 

And if you go down the pro-level s13 gear route, you won't be saving much over going fully custom instead, and it sounds like you want to do it cheaply?

[Bandit50]

I think you're rambling

 

I'm going to let you in on a secret, s13 front suspension sucks, it sucks on an s13 too, most of them just don't know it... that's why there's so many aftermarket replacements from pbm to wisefab, and none are particularly cheap. It goes far beyond rodends vs bushings.

 

And if you go down the pro-level s13 gear route, you won't be saving much over going fully custom instead, and it sounds like you want to do it cheaply?

I was, because I was starting to figure it out, and got that friendly push, which again guys thanks! Though, I am not trying to make a track car. If I was attempting to do that, there would have been a lot more cutting and welding already. There would be a four link where the control arms are now and the trunk would have two tires in it with no floor because MT E-streets are not good enough for a small block that can twist the frame of a 1986 Trans Am. The car would be tubed and only the panels would be welded to the chaise, and not even a Z anymore at that point.

 

The bottom line is, there are a lot better drag cars to do this to. If I go track at all, which I don't intend with my Z unless its 20$ drag night, or track day for fun. Arizona Z has a good kit for a road track racing for a little bit more serious enthusiasts. The difference is 8k,versus making it yourself, which I would make mine myself. So, going fully custom for me, to you is a completely different language probably all together, rather then "bolting on" with minimum fabrication. Which I assume you know exactly what I am talking about because you probalay have already gone that route . The point is, I don't want to custom fabricate the entire system, One piece or two ok... making my own control arms well. I did honestly think about it at one point since all I was getting was chirping for a while. Then I though, no... I better show them what I "can" do, maybe then these other 20+ year olds will just be like ok he knows what a mig welder is how to structure weld.

 

Sure, if I wanted fully custom I could get dad's buddy in the Canadian Hot Rod Association to Safety the car, Throw it back on a flat bead, or trailer and tow it back to Montreal, to be DOT X-ray scanned.....again, but remember my car was T-Boned with the A pillar twisted  35 degree from the back of the post towards the middle of the car if you look at that picture carefully, that's not what I am after. I would rather do that to so many other cars then a Z. Heck I would rather make my own tube chaise, and buy a fiber glass body and if I do that why not buy a Manta kit car at that point. Google that one if you don't know what it is. That might be, before a few peoples time.

 

The thing is, I love my Z, for the most part the way it is. the shape the body. Sure I didn't put as much as someone like Mull did in to one or a few others on these forums, but I did fix the holes in the floor boards stiffen up the frame rails, and repair a written off car. Which is more then many want to do. Which should tell you the amount of passion someone would have for there car enough to make it right.

 

So Mr's G-E tell me, please. What is better, than an S13 racing coil overs for around 800$ for a set. PS, My Kyb's that are currently in the car where 1200$USD. When I buy suspension, like brakes I usually do not skimp out on it my good man they're kind of important to me.. I mean you never know when the late night moose will walk out in front of you on the highway and you need to dodge at 120km/h by violently maneuvering around the beast to avoid collision.

 

So, please I am all ears on what you would, umm buy, because fabricating is something i don't want to get into. Cheep is under 5K and so far I budget the build at 14K, just for the parts and pieces alone. So it's already not cheap, but if I could start on the suspension and brakes next year keep it under oh.. 2-3K  to get a start, that would be a good step. Heck I found the transmission I wanted for around 800$, I have no block, but it could sit for a few years. I plan on re-sealing and cleaning it up anyways.

 

Also for those out there that are like just build a hot rod dude, again a pasion in my family love hot rods. Friend of the family is building a 48 chevy pick up. The coil over kit alone was 6K flat, consider yourself lucky your shocks cost 1.5k for all four and bolt in.

 

PS: No, I am not made of money. 14K for the whole build looks nice, it's not cheap but it is nice.

 

No offense at all G-E. I am just curious as to what you would exactly buy, or make.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Bandit50

[G-E]

You asked a lot of questions in that one, and wandered across topics a few times, so I'm not really sure how to respond without asking a ton more questions?

 

The needs for a road racer are going to be far different than a drag car, this includes the strength of the various arms/linkages, the struts/springs/coilovers used, and even geometry. There is no 1 "best" of anything if you want to be "good" at everything... drifting is a perfect example of how a really bad alignment for street can make you more competitive in motorsport

 

X-ray scanning and all the dreamy ideas floating in your head wouldn't help you, if you're installing a cage, or tubing anything, they will be the new skeleton, the unibody can be weak around it with no adverse effect, as long as you link all the suspension areas structurally. Do a reasonable job of un-twisting the chassis, and make it solid to the new structure, don't think too hard

 

So let's separate the two topics you've merged, suspension and damping, because I'm sure a lot of us can recommend top quality coilovers under $3k, but they may be completely useless in your application or suspension design. Carrera was a big name in the racing shock business and was eaten up by QA1, they now offer a bunch of really quite decent compact coilovers with rodend mounts, you could spend as little as $400 per corner, or $1500 per corner... these are likely your best bet if you go custom suspension. This has nothing to do with whether kw v3 s13 coilovers are any good, and more to do with the style of suspension, ie hubs/spindles/uprights, multilink, double wishbone etc used. It's not about the money...

 

When I mean custom, I mean doing a double wishbone front setup, you could easily adapt a mustang kit or cannibalize one for specific parts. Something simple for the rear like an s14 subframe swap with adjustable multilink might be good enough? Both would need fairly extensive fab work to the chassis to accommodate them, even if you sourced almost complete assemblies...

 

How do you want your front setup? What are you most concerned with, and what aspects are unimportant? Geometry? Damping? Steering lock?

[tube80z]

If you're willing to do some work you can source used motorsports bilsteins cheaply and those can be revalved.  That gets you a good shock with many valving options.  I have picked up various shocks in very good condition from 35 to 50 dollars.  These are rod end shocks and to work you'll need to fab mounts.  On the strut side there is a lot of info on this site of various options that can be done.  If you can't fab or don't want to do the work then you're looking at a kit of some kind.  It all boils down to how much you value your time.   

 

On the 280ZX platform the rear suspension squats very easy and the camber will go negative quickly.  It gets worse if you lower the car.  You'll need to raise the pickups if you lower the car to help with the squat and for a street car I'd look at a Z-bar in the rear that acts like a third spring against squat.  If you do any tricks like running packers against the bumpstops you'll probably shock the tires too much on launch and lose traction.  I've played with z-bars on 510s, which are very similar and was able to run a much softer rear spring but not have so much squat.  For a street car I'd think this would be a good way to go.

 

Hope this helps,

Cary

[Bandit50]

I stated a lot of things I already know G-E, The only question I asked, is what would you buy, about three times too XD

 

If you're willing to do some work you can source used motorsports bilsteins cheaply and those can be revalved.  That gets you a good shock with many valving options.  I have picked up various shocks in very good condition from 35 to 50 dollars.  These are rod end shocks and to work you'll need to fab mounts.  On the strut side there is a lot of info on this site of various options that can be done.  If you can't fab or don't want to do the work then you're looking at a kit of some kind.  It all boils down to how much you value your time.   

 

On the 280ZX platform the rear suspension squats very easy and the camber will go negative quickly.  It gets worse if you lower the car.  You'll need to raise the pickups if you lower the car to help with the squat and for a street car I'd look at a Z-bar in the rear that acts like a third spring against squat.  If you do any tricks like running packers against the bumpstops you'll probably shock the tires too much on launch and lose traction.  I've played with z-bars on 510s, which are very similar and was able to run a much softer rear spring but not have so much squat.  For a street car I'd think this would be a good way to go.

 

Hope this helps,

Cary

 

 Sound interesting What shocks would get revalved, S13? S30s? S130....... The camber gets worst because the angle of the spring or sturt's are mounted. It will pull it closer to the car throwing off the camber of the tire. Yes, I am aware of that this is geometry 101. I am just wondering with what you can get away with when it comes to mounting say s13.

I feel like there is a lot of miss communication in the thread.

 

Seriously, what Strut and brake system would you use if you where going to mount 200Lbs extra in your S130? Does the Brake system require a new hubs?

OK Hybrid Z, I know I asked that question in the first post of this thread. Go ahead give me some answers.


 

Edited September 14, 2014 by Bandit50

[NewZed]

 

What I know

 

Everything about the S130.

 

 

 Now, what Strut and brake system would you use if you where going to mount 200Lbs extra in your S130? Does the Brake system require a new hubs?

 

Trolling...I can't help it.

 

The two things above do not fit together at all.  It's only 200 lbs.  Plus, you're asking a vague question about "what would you do" but still not addressing what the car will be used for.  Seems like you're just waiting for someone to make up your mind for you.

[G-E]

 Sound interesting What shocks would get revalved, S13? S30s? S130....... The camber gets worst because the angle of the spring or sturt's are mounted. It will pull it closer to the car throwing off the camber of the tire. Yes, I am aware of that this is geometry 101. I am just wondering with what you can get away with when it comes to mounting say s13.

 

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/119399-240z-camber-adj-rear-coilover-adapters-bolt-on/

 

I've got a solution for that in the works

[Bandit50]

Trolling...I can't help it.

 

The two things above do not fit together at all.  It's only 200 lbs.  Plus, you're asking a vague question about "what would you do" but still not addressing what the car will be used for.  Seems like you're just waiting for someone to make up your mind for you.

 

 

Uhh yes it is, it's 200lbs MORE, then what the car already has for weight. The rb26 is roughly 700 lbs with transmission, the L28E is 523lbs. Dense much? Or can you not read? That Ego, in own world. Much Doge. -.-

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/119399-240z-camber-adj-rear-coilover-adapters-bolt-on/

 

I've got a solution for that in the works

 

Uhh no, I won't help with your CAD related project.. I can do that on my own thanks Promise!

More proof you didn't even read the thread..

 

Solution for an S13->  http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/94002-how-to-install-s13-coilovers-on-280zx-and-poly-bushings/

 

 

[johnc]

Hybridz is about hands on car builds. Part of that hands on approach is doing the research yourself and determining the correct approach, specs, products, methods, and costs. From your post (and the duplicate one I tossed in the tool shed) it appears you want us to give you the answers. In your last couple posts you're somewhat demanding of answers.

 

That's not how this site works. Take a lot more time to do the research and come to your own conclusions. Since you are new to these cars, you've got a few weeks of reading to do. Good luck.