Revised center console

[RPMS]

That looks incredible!

[Nelsonian]

I agree. Hoping this works out.

[OldAndyAndTheSea]

Sorry I've been slacking on updates....Here's the current progress. And some description of the process.

 

So with the release agent on the plug, first, I applied the 'surface coat'. This will be the molds finished surface, once it's pulled from the plug.

 

 

 

 

 

Once cured, then comes the fabric.

 

Most of my parts are created via infusion, a slightly more complicated process, that will make more sense after tomorrow's update. But it allows for much nicer parts.

 

So the dry fabric is lightly tacked to the surface coat. Templates were made, and a kit was cut, prior to this point.

 

A couple layers 6oz glass...

 

or as some know it: "boat cloth".

 

 

 

 

 

 

Followed by four layers of 12oz glass.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So tomorrow I throw a bunch of stuff on it, toss it under a vacuum bag,  and infuse some resin through all the laminate at once.

 

Which means, moment of truth comes Friday. Will it pull? I hope so.

 

I'll update after I infuse.

[Nelsonian]

Very cool! It looks like fun, though I know sanding fiberglass is anything but fun. Very excited to see the end result.

[madkaw]

Thanks for showing the process and progress- I am getting educated!

[OldAndyAndTheSea]

No problem. I can go into great depth describing the processes etc if necessary. I love showing people how this stuff works. 

 

It's way too awesome NOT to share.

 

 

Okay, so now that the dry fabric is in place, it's time to start building the bag.

First the 'tacky tape' is secured to the perimeter of the plug. Area shown below. This is what the vacuum bag attaches to.






Then, since we want to remove all of the "process stack" (plumbing) from the finished part, I put down some peel ply. This material is specifically designed to release from finished parts.








Then, flow media, or as some call it "turkey bag" is affixed to the peel ply surface. This is essentially nylon screen material. Its function is to promote the flow of resin, allowing the material to disperse easily. (less surface area to travel, blah blah yada yada..)







Vacuum line is run along the perimeter of the part.

In this particular infusion, the flow is known as "Eccentric". Meaning that the resin will feed from the center of the part, and infuse outward, toward the vacuum line, located outboard.

It varies in size, but it is just plastic conduit material.








Now for the resin feed...









Once all that garbage is in place....Then the bag gets built.









Under vacuum.








With infusion, the vacuum bag must be PERFECT, meaning no leaks ANYWHERE. Leaks equate to pulling air THROUGH your part.

Air = (really bad) weak parts

So, as you can imagine, there is a lot of room for error in these steps. One stray fiber accidentally under the tacky tape can ruin a bag and drive you nuts in the process.

Luckily, I'm The Man, my bag was good.

This was also a test of my plug, as I did not know until this point if it too had vacuum integrity. Clearly, it passed. Otherwise, this update would NOT be happening. Haha.





Once the bag checks out, it is now time to begin the infusion.

For those that are unfamiliar with the process, infusion uses the atmospheric pressure to "push" the resin through the laminate. The atmosphere weights a lot. So when you remove the atmosphere from the vacuum bag, you create a huge pressure differential. All of that weight conforms the bag and laminate to the plug form.

Resin is continually moved through the laminate, only keeping what is necessary, until the resin gels.  The rest of the resin either makes its way into a trap, to protect the vacuum pump, or gets stuck in the lines of the "process stack".

A sacrifice in cost (plumbing, resin waste, etc..) but the benefit is a superior laminate, when compared to most other processes. Highly consolidated, and lightweight (no excess resin).

Plus, you never get resin on your hands. I like my hands clean.

 


Here's a picture of what the flow front looks like, wetting out the laminate. It's just finishing up here, as you can see the resin has made its way into the vacuum line.






Fully wet out. (took around 20 minutes)









And finally, here's an overall view (albeit terrible) of the setup. In the far view, you can see the vacuum pump, hooked into the plumbing. In the foreground, controlled via a valve, is the resin feed. Hopefully this makes sense.




That's what you're looking for, clarity in the laminate. All you can see is the fabric's 'binder'





That's a good sign. No air, Baby!




Now, as long as the draft of the part is acceptable...It should release.


Tomorrow is the moment of truth. Time will tell!

Edited November 13, 2014 by OldAndyAndTheSea

[Nelsonian]

Class is in session and I'm loving it!  This is what I love about the HybridZ community.

[OldAndyAndTheSea]

Thanks for the encouragement everyone, it means a lot.

 

I'm glad people are enjoying this, I certainly am.

 

 

 

 

Okay, I lied... Today is NOT the day. Apologies..

I have decided to give the epoxy another day or so to fully cure before trying to remove the mold from the plug.

We have been tailoring our resin chemistry a bit, and this particular mixture requires a little longer cure time. I hoped it would be ready by the time I worked today, however, no bueno.

That said, the laminate looks good, so if it does release I'm fairly certain it should also have vacuum integrity. Again, can't stress vacuum integrity/leak free tooling (molds) enough. Super important.





Peel ply, and process stack removed. You can see some print left behind from the resin feed. Evidence of the high cure temperatures.

Doesn't look like much on this side, but this is what I wanted. (B side)





Hopefully the 'A side' proves to be successful as well.










Also, I snapped a better picture of another infusion I was doing today. Much better visual than yesterday's. You can clearly see the tinted black resin front creeping its way, eccentrically, from the resin feed in the center, towards the vacuum line at the perimeter -random jet ski part




I won't be going in until Monday, but my business partner says he will attempt to pull the mold tomorrow. So I should at least have news. Good, or bad.

Hurry up, and wait.

Edited November 14, 2014 by OldAndyAndTheSea

[OldAndyAndTheSea]

News from the shop.

 

Received proof of life this afternoon.

 

 

The two areas of brown are clay. I made a couple of fillets, to insure release, in some areas with questionable draft.

 

Looks like I'll be sealing, frekoting and planning the layup of console #001

 

Cool!

Edited November 15, 2014 by OldAndyAndTheSea

[OldAndyAndTheSea]

Trimmed the edge.

Applied the sealer (left)

and the release (right)




The mold is now ready to lay up.

 

 

 

Supposedly, we are expecting not one, not two, but three feet of snow this evening into tomorrow. So there may be a chance that I do not go in to work tomorrow.

But if I do, I'll begin laying up the part.

Edited November 17, 2014 by OldAndyAndTheSea

[bfg]

Thank you for the great posts, I love reading about stuff like this and have tried to delve into carbon and fiberglass in the past. The mold looks great!

[madkaw]

So where in this process would you make alterations to the console/mold? For me I would be wanting the shifter hole further forward as you already know--so how would you make that change or do you make a hole new mold?

[OldAndyAndTheSea]

The updates are no problem, as most of them are simply excerpts from my build thread. No biggie. I'm glad you guys like the progress. 

 

 

So where in this process would you make alterations to the console/mold? For me I would be wanting the shifter hole further forward as you already know--so how would you make that change or do you make a hole new mold?

 

 

Yep, so in order to make modifications to the design you do have to make a new mold, based off a plug with said modifications.

 

Doing that isn't terribly difficult.

 

 

Now that I have a mold, I can...

 

1.) Make a new plug. (essentially a really burly, untrimmed finished console, with a slightly smaller flange)

 

2.) Then make the changes to the new plug.

 

3.) Pull a new mold off that plug

 

4.) Make that part. 

 

 

The key is to have a master that remains unchanged for each part you'd like to make.

 

If I were to perpetually modify the same plug, I wouldn't be able to create new molds of that part. Molds get tired over time and must be remade.

 

So you make new plugs with subsequent molds for any alterations one wants to make.

 

 

Knowing the geometry works is a huge part of the battle though. The first one always takes the longest.

 

* master and plug are synonymous terms.

Edited November 18, 2014 by OldAndyAndTheSea

[aongch]

This is great stuff, thanks for the details and process steps!! I might go this route for my semi-tracked Z, for now just the stock console with non-functional 'guts', have to cover up that bare tunnel.

[RPMS]

Yeah, it's fascinating to watch this process!  Watching all the work that goes into making a mold makes me feel a little better about paying an arm and a leg for fiberglass parts that "only cost $5 in materials".   

 

I'm in awe.

[texis30O]

I would buy a console from you when you are ready. Just say the word. I just have a few remaining things to complete my interior

[OldAndyAndTheSea]

This is great stuff, thanks for the details and process steps!! I might go this route for my semi-tracked Z, for now just the stock console with non-functional 'guts', have to cover up that bare tunnel.

 

Again, it's no problem. I'm glad to share.

 

 

Yeah, it's fascinating to watch this process!  Watching all the work that goes into making a mold makes me feel a little better about paying an arm and a leg for fiberglass parts that "only cost $5 in materials".   

 

I'm in awe.

 

Thank you, I'm glad you said that.

 

Not all of my motive is strictly educational... A part of me wanted to document to the process to show the vast amounts of labor and time involved in creating even the simplest of parts. It will be a nice resource to people who want to haggle on my prices, which I have yet to crunch the numbers on. Sorry.

 

I always get a kick out of the "only xx amount of materials" comment.

 

Cool, you build one then.

 

 

 

 

 

I would buy a console from you when you are ready. Just say the word. I just have a few remaining things to complete my interior

 

 

Cool, there's some motivation to actually start laying up my mold then! haha,

 

I'd love to help. I know it's premature, since you haven't seen any finished product yet, but do you know if you'd like carbon fiber or a glass replacement? Any specifics/modifications needed?

 

I'll starting planning now, so I will be ready when the production run happens.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm planning on laying up the mold tomorrow some time.

 

The last two days, I have been super busy and have not had the time at work required to start laying up the carbon fiber prototype.

 

I'm jumping straight to carbon. Normally you'd NEVER do this, as carbon can be 10 times more expensive than glass (or more).

 

 

For example: One yard of 3k twill carbon fiber is roughly 40 dollars per yard. One yard of the 12oz glass I use is roughly 5 dollars per yard.

 

 

<Segway into fiber conversation>

 

3k twill is some of the most commonly used carbon fiber in the automotive world.

 

3k refers to the fiber count, per tow.

 

This is one tow.

 

 

So there are three thousand individual fibers in each of those. You can now begin to see why carbon is so strong.

 

 

twill refers to the weave of those tows.

 

'Twill' is what most people think of when they think "carbon fiber"

 

A twill weave pattern has tows going over two, and then under two.

 

Typically in the 0 and 90 degree axises

 

Look closely, you can see the tows weaving over two, and under two.

 

 

 

 

 

Twill offers EXCELLENT conformity. This is why most complex carbon parts have this aesthetic, since it is the easiest weave to conform to shapes.

 

If strength is designed/required, the subsequent layers under the twill are different directional carbon fiber, depending on the engineering. 

 

 

That was a long drawn out way of saying...

 

 

I don't have any twill weave fiberglass, so I can not test my mold with a similar acting material, on the cheap.

 

I know that I could make colored glass ones "no problem".

 

But, the questions have always been...

 

"Can I get the twill to behave around all of the complex geometry that the console offers?"

 

And

 

"Will it have an aesthetically pleasing class A finish?"

 

 

The other thing, specific to my console, is that I designed it to keep the chrome trim piece. Like the ashtray, I'll bond it in place post production.

 

I thought it would be a nice touch....but honestly, in retrospect, that little trim piece is going to make my life a whole hell of a lot harder.

 

 

 

 

In any future molds, this provision will be deleted. Unless you really wanted it.

 

Hindsight is always 20-20.

 

 

Lets see what tomorrow brings..

Edited November 20, 2014 by OldAndyAndTheSea

[madkaw]

So my buddy that does this stuff prefers prepreg. How much of a difference in work does using prepreg make?

[OldAndyAndTheSea]

In work, it is just as laborious. However, in different ways than you see here.. 

 

Prepregs are much more fun to work with because they have a surface 'tack' to them. Which is actually the catalyzed resin system; a secondary benefit to their design. This helps them stick to the tool surface.

 

 

 

Prepreg parts go through multiple, what are known as, "debulks".

 

In between specific amount of layers, a vacuum bag is placed over the laminate, and compressed. The bag is then removed, and more layers go on. Once you add that certain number of layers....

 

Another bag...

 

(or hopefully you can manage to reuse your previous bag).

 

Rinse and repeat... until desired laminate.

 

 

Prepregs are also far more energy intensive. You need an oven, of some sorts, to bake the parts at an elevated temperature for a set period. Prepregs also need to be refrigerated when not in use.

 

I remember you mentioning that your guy has access to an autoclave. Heat and pressure in one. That's serious business. Almost too serious for non structural parts. Almost.

 

Those have the potential to be really beautiful laminates.

 

The rules change when you work with prepregs. Nothing crazy, just different. I like prepregs a lot. You can get the utmost engineering potential with prepregs. More so than any other process.

 

It all takes time though. Most of the time is in the tooling, which can vary greatly depending on the process/person/project.

Edited November 21, 2014 by OldAndyAndTheSea

[madkaw]

Yep he has the AUTOCLAVE!!

I've seen the rolls of prepreg in the freezer. Definite higher costs dealing with the prepreg, but I thought it also saved at bit on the labor side.