Help. what is wrong with this tune.

[seattlejester]

Well, good on ya, I was too chicken to try and build it myself.

 

^Very useful information you two!

 

Seeing as I'm the only person in this thread, reference to me being Chris? Nope  . 

 

Injector settings are kind of a one time use and forget so I usually forget what they do after I find and input them.

 

Topen: I believe stands for time to open? This I think is the time it takes for the injector to react, I thought this was called dead time?

PWM current limit: PWM stands for Pulse Width Modulation. The current limit I would guess is a max setting to limit the amount of current allowed to pass as it switches on and off. This is used for lower impedance injectors, my guess is to prevent overloading the resistance, an even lower impedance would require resistors, and high impedance would not require any limit

PWM threshold: PWM as above, threshold is usually another limit setting, my guess is to limit the injectors from staying full open or the minimum value to keep it from fluctuating one or the other.

[MerloZ]

Okay cool thanks so much for maiking me a tune. I working on fixing some of my setting right now. Then i will go wire up the lc2 along with the coolant temp sensor and hope for the best.i JB welded the crackedhousing and put the GM sensor in. Obviously i wont trust it too much but it should work good enough for now.and for boost regulator i have the stock wastegate which i believe is set at 6.8 psi

[MerloZ]

Allright im back inside from the garage. everything is wired up and working properly. The jb weld seems to be working better than i thought and i didnt see any leaking. After i burnt off the excess fuel from the spark plugs and engine i let them both sit exposed to air for 2 days. I didnt have a T fitting to use with my pressure gauge so i couldnt sucsessfuly test that. i will properly test that later tomorow. So i put my injector fuses back in and hoped for the best. With all the correct settings in the tune the car started for like 3 seconds and sounded good. then it wouldnt start after that. i pull the plugs and they are soaked yet again. at this point it has to be the fuel pump supplying too much pressure. both pressure and return line look to be 3/8 now that i looked at them. so in that case i need a new adjustable FPR right?

[MerloZ]

Also Chickenman what do you mean log everything. i havnt really explored the data logging portion of the ms2. Can it be logging all the time without the computer hooked up?

[Chickenman]

Also Chickenman what do you mean log everything. i havnt really explored the data logging portion of the ms2. Can it be logging all the time without the computer hooked up?

Once you get it up up and running with a base tune, Log with Tuner Studio to your Laptop. 

 

Data logging is one of the most important things in tuning. Laptop has to be connected. Time to do some more reading at MS forums.  Log ignition timing, AFR ( ASAP, hook your LC2 auxiliary WB output to the proper MS input ), Manifold absolute pressure, RPM, coolant temp as a minimum.  

 

You do have the factory  FPR hooked up correct?  I would recommend getting an Aeromotive #13129 EFI FPR. Summit and Jegs carry them.

 

https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/aei-13129

 

Run it in bypass mode.  Summit and Jegs carry them. You will need the ability to control adjust fuel pressure down the road. Stock FPR runs at 37.5 PSI. That's pretty low pressure. Mots injectors run at 3 BAR ( 43.5 PSI ) Higher fuel pressure allow you to run injectors at a lower durty cycle when you get into higher boosts. You want to keep IDC under 85% if you can.  

 

You should consider switching to a Pallnet Fuel rail for ease of installation. See our Vendors forum.  

 

Still waiting for answer on these questions. BTW, what are you using for a boost controller? MS Boost controller, Auxiliary Electronic Controller or Manual Boost Valve?

 

Will work on the Tune file a bit tonight... your current posted one is a mess.

Edited April 14, 2017 by Chickenman

[Chickenman]

This article has some very good information. Be sure to read it thoroughly:

 

http://atlanticz.ca/zclub/techtips/turbo/

Edited April 14, 2017 by Chickenman

[Chickenman]

OK. This is the Tune i've built as a safe startup for Merlo's 280Z Turbo. I've done the best that I can without being there. This should be a good and safe baseline.

 

Remember NO MORE THAN 5 lbs of BOOST!!! ( for initial tuning ) 

 

1: Download the following .zip file and extract the .msq file to your Desktop.

 

 

 

 

2:: Start a new Project from Tuner Studio or open an existing Project A project is basically a book to load various Tunes into.

 

3: Load the MerloZTune2.msq file from within Tuner studio. 

 

4: Disconnect all injector terminals or switch Fuel pump off. 

 

5: Go to Ignition Settings menu and select Ignition Options/ Decoder Wheel. Change the " Fixed  Advance " button to " Fixed Timing ".  Fixed Timing is locked at 10 degrees BTDC. Attach timing light to engine and a battery charger ( or fully charged battery )

 

 

 

6: Have your helper crank the engine over while you look at the timing mark. Adjust Tooth #1 Angle until you see  timing light mark line up at 10 BTDC.  You may need a second helper to adjust computer while you do this.  When Trigger angle setting lines up with 10 BTDC on your timing light, hit the burn button at the bottom. Then Cycle ignition off and back on.

 

7: With ignition back on, go to Ignition Settings menu again, Ignition Options/Decoder Wheel,  and change the " Fixed Advance " button to " Use Table ". Hit the Burn button. Then cycle Ignition off and back on. 

 

8: Connect all Injector terminals or turn fuel pump back on. 

 

9:  Cross your fingers and toes and Start her up!! If everything has been done correctly it should light off and idle reasonably well.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Chickenman

[MerloZ]

I told you my boost control is the stock wastegate at 6.8 psi. I have a boost gauge so i wont go over 5. Im sorry i know i havnt done too much research but ive done as much as i can. Im a busy kid and guite honestly i have no idea how you guys have time to read all this information. I ordered a FPR just in case. Ive read quite a bit over the last few months but clearly its not enough. Im trying to at least be able to limp this car to a car show 10 miles down my road on the 23rd lol. Also chicken man, why should i set timing to 10BTDC i understand what you said and how to do it but what about the actual dizzy dont i have to turn that to 10 BTDC also?? I thought l28et was supposed to be set at 17-22 BTDC??? Right now my timing light flashes at 19 BTDC and my fixed timing matches that.. right. Ughh. So much confusion. So many questions

[Slowpoke]

You'll get there buddy. It looks like your on the right track. Just be patient, these guys are really trying to help you out. Try and answer all their questions. Look up "trigger offset wizard" to understand more about MS and timing. You need to know a little more about how MS works. Did you ever hook your wide band up to MS? Did you do a data log?

[Chickenman]

I told you my boost control is the stock wastegate at 6.8 psi. I have a boost gauge so i wont go over 5. Im sorry i know i havnt done too much research but ive done as much as i can. Im a busy kid and guite honestly i have no idea how you guys have time to read all this information. I ordered a FPR just in case. Ive read quite a bit over the last few months but clearly its not enough. Im trying to at least be able to limp this car to a car show 10 miles down my road on the 23rd lol. Also chicken man, why should i set timing to 10BTDC i understand what you said and how to do it but what about the actual dizzy dont i have to turn that to 10 BTDC also?? I thought l28et was supposed to be set at 17-22 BTDC??? Right now my timing light flashes at 19 BTDC and my fixed timing matches that.. right. Ughh. So much confusion. So many questions

I'm sorry...but I've read this thread over several times and I've yet to see where you mentioned that you were running 6.8 psi. Maybe I missed something?? Unless you mean the sentence: " I have a pretty much stock 82 l28et ". That may mean one thing to you.. and something entirely different to another person.  Regardless, when someone asks you specific questions, over the Internet, please try to answer them plainly and clearly. We are not there, and we could be visualizing something completely different from you. And assumptions can  lead to mistakes.

 

As Slowpoke mentioned, read up some more on the " Trigger Offset  Wizard " to understand why you lock in the Timing at a set degree ( 10 Degrees is just what MS uses as a default ) and synchronise your Trigger Angle Degree to your timing light.  Once you get your timing light synched to that figure, you switch back to " Use Ignition Table ) and the timing will adjust to what's in the table. Note: I built you a safe Ignition ( and Fuel ) Table just to get your car up and running SAFELY. By no means is it a final tune . It's a baseline that should have your car up and running smoothly and safely.   You ( or I ) can  can tweak things later. 15 BTDC at idle will work just fine for now... 

 

The following " Novel " is to help you understand the difference in old school mechanical dizzy timing control s and new ECU controlled timing:

 

In a normal "Old school " dizzy, with mechanical and vacuum advance, the trigger sensor ( Points or electronic pickup ) is physically moved to set the initial timing point. You " twist " the dizzy. The points or reluctor pickup also sits on a moving breaker plate. That also physically moves by mechanical or vacuum mechanisms to physically advance the Ignition timing.

 

In a ECU controlled system, the crank sensor is normally locked in one position. It cannot ( usually )  be physically removed. Instead we rely on Electronics to move the Timing point. Here's something that will help you understand ECU controlled Timing. ECU Ignition  timing can never be " advanced" . Unless you break several laws of the space and  time continuum. What an electronic system does is actually retard or delay  the timing. The crank sensor is usually placed 60 to 70 degrees BTDC. The reason for this is that it has to be above maximum cruise total advance ( This can be 45 to 50 degrees BTDC  under light cruise modes ) .... and you have to allow for some extra overhead because the electronics do take some time to do the calculations. It's in milliseconds, but at 7,000 rpm a few milliseconds can be quite a lot in crank degrees travel . 

 

In summary. With an ECU controlled timing, lets say you want 10 degrees of idle ( static ) timing. Let's say  Crank sensor is located at 60 degrees BTDC. When ECU senses the trigger signal, it " Delays " the coil firing by 50 crank degrees. 60 -50 = 10 Easy Peasy. At high RPM's you want more spark advance so the EDCU " Delays " the signal less. 60 - 25 = 35 BTDC. Note that the crank sensor number doesn't change. That  number ( once it's calibrated or synchronised ) never changes.   

 

Nissan incorporated the crank sensor in the Optical dizzy and yes there is a small amount of adjustment allowed, but it is not meant to be used as a " Timing adjustment " . It can be used for something called " Rotor Phasing "... but that is well and truly above your level of understanding right now and is of little significance. Set the Dizzy adjustment in the middle and then leave it alone. 

 

Now... DIY uses a very " Funky " trigger wheel for use with with Nissan Optical Dizzy's. You don't have to understand the reason why ( It has to do with limitations of there firmware coding ) but they've designed a very strange wheel. That's why you see some truly bizarre setting under " Decoder Wheel settings" . IE: A trigger offset of 345 degrees instead of a more normal 60 or 70 degrees. And the wheel is actually a 24 -1 -1 wheel. But in the settings you select 12 - 1. A couple of other things to. TRUST me. you don't have to understand why they did it ( unless you're a budding software engineer ) only THAT IT WORKS!!  So follow the DIY instructions completely.

 

Another thing. Do not take someone else's file and use it on your engine " Just because it worked ".... on the other guys engine. How do you know his Optical dizzy isn't bolted down a bit different than yours? How do you know that he may have his oil pump/dizzy drive spindle off by a tooth?  Calibration of the Trigger Offset is critical. So learn how to do it properly and calibrate it to your engine.  However, It just may happen that 240 degrees or 250 degrees is pretty much close to what your engine requires as well. So keep that in the back of your head. 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Chickenman

[Chickenman]

I'm going to make up another Tune file with Warm-up enrichment disabled. I have to change the warmup map to do this. Normally you do not want warm up enrichments being enabled when you are doing a base tune. And I think the Warm-up map from the original file you downloaded is too rich.

 

Edit. Not running a Coolant Temperature Sensor was probably the main reason why it ran pig rich. A CTS is one of the main sensors that the ECU uses to determine fuel flow. 

 

Most Tuning software allows you to easily enable or disable compensation MAPs via a check box, but MS does not have this Option. So I'll just make another .msg file with the Warm up map disabled. I'll call it MerloZTune3.msq and post it up in a ZIP file..... after I have my morning coffee. 

 

Keep plugging away. But don't try and over think things. Follow the DIY instructions and you'll make progress. Still ask questions, that's how you learn... but understand that DIY has done some software programming outside of " Normal " conventions to make their " Funky " Nissan trigger wheel work. You don't have to understand " Everything " all at once. It's a huge learning curve and will take time.  Do yourself a favor and order DIY's EFI Tuning book from their Webstore if you haven't already bought it. Cheers.

 

BTW... I'm retired and have been racing for over 40 years. That's how I have the time to work on this stuff. I like helping people out, but sometimes spend way too much time at the keyboard. I often post at the early hours of the morning ( Insomnia ) so sometimes I miss things cause my brain's a bit foggy... 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Chickenman

[Chickenman]

Here's the latests Tune file with startup enrichment mellowed out a lot.

 

 

 

BTW, if the plugs are looking like lumps of black coal, throw some fresh plugs in. They're cheap and you can't tune on fouled plugs. And get that Coolant Temperature sensor hooked up. And the AFR Wide Band feed to the MS ECU. I've enabled the AFR feedback feature in my tunes, so hook it up please. It will make your life a lot easier. 

 

Note: If you have a problem with hooking up the Innovate AFR gauge auxiliary output to the MS, then disable " Incorporate AFR Target " under the " General Settings " tab:

 

Edited April 17, 2017 by Chickenman

[seattlejester]

Post 22 for the wastegate reference.

 

Just want to chime in and say that before you go off spending money on a new FPR and making ASSUMPTIONS which are a big no no. Get a fuel pressure gauge. Probably less then $20 with all the fittings, and you can continue to use it with a new FPR if that is determined to be needed.

 

You've got a real resource with more time and experience then I can offer in here, but to be respectful for him let's make sure the base lines are covered.

 

If you played around with the VE fuel values when you were telling the ECU it was a 2L engine with 0cc injectors you probably will have to reset those back to the stock configuration or I imagine chickenman's tune would also account for that.

 

Additionally, looks can be terribly deceiving. Buy or borrow a pair of calipers and measure the lines. 

 

Establish that timing is correct. As chickenman says if you lock in timing to a value like 10btdc. You can use a timing light to read off the crank to see how close you are, then you can adjust via the offset setting to make sure the ECU is in time with the engine. Then you can re-enable the timing curve, the setting of the 10 btdc is to just confirm the ECU and motor are kosher.

 

 

 

Take a full log, which would be under data log? It has been a while since I've had my car up so I don't recall the exact menu locations. Start the car and run a log, if that's not possible, start the log then start the car.

 

That will tell us what the ECU is telling each component to do. If it is flooding the motor then we can look at the AFR and see if it is running pig rich before that happens. Combined with a fuel pressure gauge we can narrow down if the fuel lines or the stock FPR is the problem.

[Chickenman]

And see, I did miss post #22... cause I'm old and frequently post way too early in the morning. 

 

Yeah.. I went through all the fuel maps and ignition maps and corrected all the errors in the general settings. It's now a 2.8 liter motor with 260CC Turbo injectors. Garbage In... garbage out.

 

A permanent  fuel pressure gauge is a must have as SJ mentions. All the tuning in the world won't fix a hardware failure like a faulty FPR. Do get a Fuel gauge tee'd in there somehow, even if just for temporary use. You have to confirm the exact Fuel Pressure or all the fancy calculations goe out the window. 

 

An aftermarket FPR will be needed somewhere down the road, as I trust you will eventually be turning up the wick. 

 

Lack of CTS and having the warm-up enrichment enabled ( which was also scaled way too high ) would also make it Pig Rich. That was one of the biggest problems in your original tune. 

 

To OP: Don't tune by VE tables or change their values.  You leave those alone ( once set correctly ) . You tune by altering the AFR tables. I've built you a good AFR table right off the bat. It will be safe and should run smoothly. Don't muck with it too much.... unless I built a pile of dog poo.... which I don't think I did. Same with the Spark Maps. I have idle set at 15 BTDC for a good reason ( Anti-Stall ), Car will run fine with that setting and Tune is built around it. 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Chickenman

[Chickenman]

In case any one wants to take a gander, here are the AFR tables that I built. Pretty conservative, with cruise and low load cruise to be around stoic. Idle is always set a bit richer than stoic. As soon as the boost starts coming in I throw the fuel at it. 11.0 AFR is going to be nice and safe under boost. Should be fine for much higher boosts than he will be initially running.

 

MerloZTune3.msq

 

2D Fuel Table:

 

 

3D Fuel Table:

 

Edited April 14, 2017 by Chickenman

[Chickenman]

Ignition Table. MerloZTune3.msq

 

Again conservative with added timing a low load cruise but safe overall values at high RPM and under Boost.  Note 500 RPM value higher than 1,000 RPM . That is done on purpose.  Anti-Stall feature which most OEM manufacturers use in addition to IAC valve.

 

2D Ignition Table:

 

 

3D Ignition Table:

 

 

[MerloZ]

Okay everyone i just got home from work and i put a temporary fuel pressure gauge in line for now. And im sorry if im like offending anyone by seeming as if im rushing to get this car running but in a way i am. I am by no means trying to be rude i apreciate all of your information very much. Understand that im a busy 17 yr old with a nearly booked schedule and trying to comprehend this learning curve is a challenge but i will in no way give up. I went ms2 more for learning than for my car... lol anyway. I cranked it over and i got 44psi without the injectors firing. Which is high but not too high right??. Stock is 37psi running i think. Chicken man i will download your latest file you gave me and see what happens. I will be back with a data log too. But first i gotta read all this stuff. Also yes i connected all the sensors. I now have coolant,o2,tps, and iat for sensors. Again. Thanks for all the help.

[seattlejester]

I do a lot of late night posting, I've posted in wrong threads quite a few times and had to make some ninja edits, haha.

 

No offense taken, at least on my part, sometimes you kind of get stuck in a "what part do I need to replace" mentality when it is something bigger or smaller. It is harder to troubleshoot when you are not there in person.

 

I recently went to someone's house to help fix a water temp gauge. Found out in less then two minutes that there were two solid breaks within two inches of the sender. That was a red herring though as eventually we traced it back to the gauge not reacting at all. It would have saved probably an hour or so if the wires were fixed before I got there as time was spent on that section. No worries in person, but if it is over the internet we can all be focused on some tiny piece of information when the actual problem lies elsewhere. 

 

You're doing fine, factoring in your age your making quite the effort. Just keep on reading. While it may seem easier to just be told what to input etc, it is better in the long run to actually understand what you are doing especially if you don't have a good support network to fall back on.

 

35psi is about stock? I skipped the actual L28et in the scheme of things, but from pictures it looks like it has a pressure reference port which would be expected of a turbo car. At 44psi you are 7-9psi over stockish idle settings. Running excess fuel pressure means that when the injector opens it will spray in more fuel in this case almost 30% more. I would turn the car on and see what it runs if you can get the car to run. Some regulators don't find their steady state until the car is running, and then some others will change as you rev. Another thing you could do is route a larger diameter hose from the regulator to a fuel jug placed far away from ignition sources and see if the fuel pressure drops, that would indicate the return line is causing a restriction to the fuel trying to return to the tank and causing excess pressure in the "rail."

[MerloZ]

Chickenman. im sorry for being so uneducated. I used someone elses tune because when i clicked create new tune, tunerstudio basically yelled at me and told me its a bad idea. it said warning creating a tune from scratch is not a good idea you may want to start with a similar setup. So please understand im just trying to listen to what everything is telling me and it seems as if im running in circles. but im glad i have a genious like you to tell me what to actually to do.

[MerloZ]

I do a lot of late night posting, I've posted in wrong threads quite a few times and had to make some ninja edits, haha.

 

No offense taken, at least on my part, sometimes you kind of get stuck in a "what part do I need to replace" mentality when it is something bigger or smaller. It is harder to troubleshoot when you are not there in person.

 

I recently went to someone's house to help fix a water temp gauge. Found out in less then two minutes that there were two solid breaks within two inches of the sender. That was a red herring though as eventually we traced it back to the gauge not reacting at all. It would have saved probably an hour or so if the wires were fixed before I got there as time was spent on that section. No worries in person, but if it is over the internet we can all be focused on some tiny piece of information when the actual problem lies elsewhere. 

 

You're doing fine, factoring in your age your making quite the effort. Just keep on reading. While it may seem easier to just be told what to input etc, it is better in the long run to actually understand what you are doing especially if you don't have a good support network to fall back on.

 

35psi is about stock? I skipped the actual L28et in the scheme of things, but from pictures it looks like it has a pressure reference port which would be expected of a turbo car. At 44psi you are 7-9psi over stockish idle settings. Running excess fuel pressure means that when the injector opens it will spray in more fuel in this case almost 30% more. I would turn the car on and see what it runs if you can get the car to run. Some regulators don't find their steady state until the car is running, and then some others will change as you rev. Another thing you could do is route a larger diameter hose from the regulator to a fuel jug placed far away from ignition sources and see if the fuel pressure drops, that would indicate the return line is causing a restriction to the fuel trying to return to the tank and causing excess pressure in the "rail."

okay good idea with bypassing the fuel rail. im going out in just a minute to try everything chickenman told me.if it runs i assume the fuel pressure will go down a little and if not ill bypass it.