Drive shaft shop CV conversion doesn't fit!

[trackzpeed]

No you are incorrect.  DSS sold me the parts and advertises them as a bolt on solution used on “many Z’s all over without problem”.  The stub axle has never fit in any way shape or form.  I am on my 4th attempt to send them back and again have them machined to spec  to match  stock stub axle.  The issue at hand is that when the stub axle is installed it binds against the housing and won’t turn.  I’m not sure how much more information/communication I can give them aside from sending an axle with instructions to make a copy.  I support product from vendors on a regular basis and after 30 years of building cars I know that a little modification is typically necessary to make things work, however $2600 and 4 months with numerous emails and pictures with measurements from me since I placed my order and they still can’t get it right.  My frustration comes

from providing them everything to make the right product and them sending me something different repeatedly.   Thanks for your input, I don’t mind be reminded to stay the course or not to lose focus blaming others unfairly, but this situation is all on them. I’m still waiting for reply from DSS I’d they wish to try again to get this right.  Thanks for the picture provided, I’ll pass that along as well. 

Respectfully, Jim 

Edited January 15, 2018 by trackzpeed

[NewZed]

4 hours ago, trackzpeed said:

No you are incorrect. 

 

The stub axle has never fit in any way shape or form.

 

You didn't understand what I was saying.  The axle does not "fit" the strut casting.  It "fits" inside the inner race of the bearings.  The bearings "fit" the casting.  The distance piece determines the position of the inner races of the bearings, determining their lateral position on the axle.

 

When you say the axle binds in the casting, it doesn't make sense, unless you mean that the axle won't spin after you torque the nut.  Bind isn't really descriptive enough.  Yesterday I thought you meant that it wouldn't even fit in the casting, but now I think that you mean it won't spin after assembly.

 

If you mean that the axle won't turn when you reassemble everything, it's probably because the distance piece is too short, causing the inner races to be pulled in too far, binding the bearings in their races.  Did you remember to install the distance piece?  And make sure that it matches the casting, as described in the FSM?  

 

The inner race bearing seat on the wheel side of the axle is the only dimension that might affect binding and only if it is so far offset that it allows one of the flanges to contact the casting.  Otherwise it's the distance piece and the bearings, and only after torquing the nut.

 

 

 

 

 

[NewZed]

Of course, the guy at DSS should have realized this also and discussed it with you.

[trackzpeed]

The outside flange contacts

the housing.  It has assembled all 4 times correctly.  DSS has already repeatedly admitted that the stub axle is not machined properly that is why they have repeatedly try to fix the problem. Unfortunately the problem has yet to be fixed.  I am still working on a solution with DSS.  And yes, when I say it’s binding I mean the wheel won’t spin.  Thank you for your points of help...... this can’t be fixed until the product is machined to OEM spec.  

[NewZed]

Thanks for clarifying.  Although, that issue can be easily confirmed with a simple measurement before assembly, from the seat surface to the flange.  If the outside flange is contacting then you could add shims to the inner race seat.  If you wanted to save the bad axles.

 

Good luck.

 

Here's an image from Whitehead showing the seat surface that would need to be shimmed.

https://whiteheadperformance.com/product/whp-billet-chromoly-stub-axles-27-spline-datsun-240z-260z-280z/

 

[trackzpeed]

That has been addressed twice by DSS with machined spacers the first was wrong and the second correct.  The point of contact is the shoulder / dust cap..... it is too wide and 3mm too tall and contacts the outside edge of the upright housing.  This was supposed to machined down to spec of OEM to match the OEM axle I sent them on the 3rd attempt however it was not done properly and remains a point of contact. I spoke with DSS yesterday along with multiple emailed pictures and an offer to send them an upright and another axle for reference..... they will get back to me today on how to approach this yet again.  In the mean time, checkered Joe has reached out to me (great guy by the way) and has an alternate solution for me if DSS can’t or won’t fix the problem and returns my money. I will know more later today.  I will admit that lee at DSS was very apologetic and seems willing to fix the problem..... I’m just tired of doing this repeatedly and really want my car back.  My race this weekend is obviously a bust.  Jim 

[Richard Oben]

Do I need to strip an upright?

[NewZed]

Well, it's more clear now.  If you were telling them "hey, the dust shield is interfering with the casting and needs to be of smaller diameter and lower thickness" that's a lot different than just telling them "it's binding".  The first gives them specific direction, the second is a riddle that they have to solve.

 

My basic point is that clear communications will help them help you.  Plus it helps people out here understand what the problem really is.  You made it sound like they were completely incompetent, and made a part that wasn't even close to functional.

 

A guy with a file could relieve that dust cap problem, if he really needed to.  I could.  How important is the race?

[trackzpeed]

Richard.... They have not responded yet.  Ill let you know.

NewZed:  with all do respect you have absolutely know idea the depth of conversation I have had with them and the extent of the problem.   You cannot file the dust cap down and make this work, that's is a completely ignorant statement! This is a crappy design and machining problem, a fact that has been supported by other vendors that are highly respected in the Z community that  have reached out to me in private in order to help me find a fix.  You seem to think I'm some kind of dumbass that can't turn a wrench.  I do not have the time to relay every communication I've had with them (DSS) to the hybrid community, just a general overview. Please quit trying to read between the lines.   

Respectfully, Jim

[NewZed]

11 minutes ago, trackzpeed said:

You cannot file the dust cap down and make this work, that's is a completely ignorant statement!

 

  You seem to think I'm some kind of dumbass that can't turn a wrench. 

 

Respectfully, Jim

 

I responded to what you communicated in your writing.  The ignorance is yours.  You said the dust cap, or ridge in this case, contacted the strut casting.  Therefore, if it is removed it cannot contact it anymore.  Because it's not there anymore.  Pretty simple and basic.  If that is not the case, then we're stuck with your poor communication.

 

You seem like one of those nightmare customers.  Poor communication, maybe due to a lack of understanding, then throwing insults when people question your lack of knowledge or ability.

 

Good luck.

 

 

[trackzpeed]

Thanks you. Good luck to

you as well

[G-Tech]

Wow newzed, relax man.. .I've been following this for a whIle cause I've had similar issues before. I don't see what your big stink is all about. I'm sure if he wasn't communicating properly then calling them and complaining, DSS would tell him they have done all they can. Instead of apologizing and wanting to fix it "again"....just saying I think trackzpeed seems knowledgeable. Not like he has ever asked if it was hard to make a z all-wheel drive? 🙄

 

[NewZed]

On 11/9/2017 at 6:12 PM, trackzpeed said:

I have come to realize that DSS stands for Drive Shit Shop not Drive Shaft Shop. 

 

Here's where the stink got big.

 

I cleared up more about his problem in a few posts than he did in the whole thread.  He's blowing up a simple problem in to a huge deal.  He should have been able to tell them exactly what was wrong after the first fitting.  Take a few measurements before putting it all back together and confirming 'binding".  Take some responsibility for part of the problem.  

 

To screw up the basics of working with a machine shop, then call me "ignorant' is just too much.  This is very basic Machine Shop 101 stuff.  Child's play, if they had machine shop classes in grade school.  I was just taking the other side to see what's what, but TZS showed what's happening with the "ignorant' comment.

 

If I was DSS I'd give him his money back and say good riddance.  Even if they get it right he'll probably screw something up and blame them for it.

[trackzpeed]

With all do respect newzed you have contrbuted nothing new to the solution of the problem that I had not already addressed many weeks back with DSS.  I may not be using terms that agree with you.... I said “bind and won’t turn” and you prefer “won’t spin”. Your suggestion of filing off a dust cap is impossible  as we are talking about solid billet machined parts that are meant to be to spec.  You just can’t take a file to this stuff and call it good and I don’t own a lathe.  I purchased these parts at great cost per DSS selling them as bolt on and in regularly  use on many S30 Z’s. They have since admitted that they have NEVER had this stub axle on 240Z and admitted that there stub axle was previously copied off of an unknown Datsun stub axle they were told was an S30.  I have supplied them all of the measurements using my mics and calipers for the risers so the bearing would fit per spec.  Unfortunately, the first riser was not machined to measurements I provided so they did them a second time, this time per my measurements and they are perfect.  Great, however the billet machined shoulder then cam into contact with the housing and again would not spin.  Soooooo I sent them a stock 240Z OEM stub axle along with their axles with the understanding that DSS would

machine into the billet stub axle

the proper recess and width allowing the stub axle to fit as OEM with the stock stamped dust cap.  DSS sent the axles back to me with shoulder machined down but without the necessary recess.  I called them concerned they still would not fit however, per their instructions, bolted them back up as they were “within .005 tolerance of OEM”. I bolted them back up and they continue to press against the housing and will not spin.  I called DSS  with the bad news and they said “sorry, we didn’t think the recess was that important”. My response was “why didn’t you just machine the axle to match the OEM one I sent”? There Response- “Im not sure i need to talk to the machine shop”.  As of this afternoon, DSS has requested I send it all back one more time and they will make it right.  I’m going to give them that opportunity again as I am to far into this to just turn back.  So, after month of emails, pictures, and sourcing hardware to fit (since the supplied hardware hits the differential on the adapter side of this conversion) I am again hoping that DSS machines these stub axles to OEM spec. Keep in mind, this is advertised as a “bolt in no modification kit”.  Im really not offended that I’m not making sense to you.  I’m offended and ticked off that I was sold a product that has never actually been bolted on to a 240Z and that I have been patiently (admittedly sometimes not so) trying to help them produce a useable product from the other side of the U.S with phone calls emails and pictures. The final straw is sending them an OEM axle with the instructions “make a copy of this” and it still came back machined wrong. Every point you have made regarding bearings and risers and clearance I agree with fully and in fact I communicated to them to fix those issues as they arose.  It’s been a long process. I’m sorry I can’t satisfy your deepest need for every piece of communication and I honestly can’t tell you why they keep getting it wrong.   Funny thing is, they can’t explain it either, but they sure as heck are not blaming me. Lee thanked me for my patience with all of DSS mistakes. Getting into a war of words is not my bag.  I’m bummed out this crap is clogging up the forum.  I apologize if I offended you. I’m really just a hard working guy that loves Z’s and gearhead culture in general. I’ve been building and racing for  most of my 50 years of life (first kart and motorcycle age 5) and building cars in my garage is my therapy..... supposed to be fun. Given all my frustration with this purchase, i just needed a place to vent and I really want others to avoid the same.   So hearing that I’m a whining complainer that doesn’t know what the hell he is saying and is incompetent to turn a wrench hits where it hurts to be perfectly honest.  Agree to disagree is cool

with me, time to let this squabble go. 

With respect, Jim 

[trackzpeed]

UPDATE:  DSS is asking for the stub axles back again for one more try.  Sending them back today.  As frustrating as this has been, I will at least give DSS credit for repeatedly trying to make it right.  Side note:  the CV axles appear to be too short as well........ With all of the drama surrounding this conversion I measured every single part  yesterday and the axle bar is 1 inch too short.  DSS asked me to bolt up the stubs when they arrive and take measurements...... They will replace the axle bar once they know the stubs fit properly.  Just another step to take the half shaft cv axles back apart and send them back for correction.   As long as I'm back racing by march-april I'm good to go.  Thanks to the community and vendors that have reached out in private  and forum for all the help and support.  Jim

[Eric JB]

TrackZpeed, sorry to hear about your problems with your CV axle kit. And sorry for the people on here, who take sides with the vendor to the point of insulting your ability. Much like yourself, I am an old gearhead wrench spinner, and If they only knew what I know about these  "Porsche 930 style" kits, they wouldn't be on the vendor's side.  But please indulge me for a moment, and give me some info.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       What is the OAL of the axle shaft? 16.250, or 15.625? Is it silver zinc plated? or powder coated? And if so, what color?                                                                                                                                Did the CV joints come in a box wrapped in a greasy brown paper? Does the box reveal where they were made? Is there a 9 digit number on the box or part itself? Does it start with a 931 or a 211?     JMO, for $2600, they should practically install themselves.                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

[trackzpeed]

The overall length to mounting surface is 14.25 full compressed and 16 fully extended.  Axle bar is a black powder coat. They came preassembled 108 mm 930 “style”. FWIW I believe the oal length is going to be 1” to short..... per DSS instructions, once they return my wheel stub axles (hopefully with proper machining of all surfaces per OEM axle I sent them) I need to bolt up the stubs and take measurements so they can adjust the length of the axle bar as necessary.  

Hope that helps.  Still waiting for parts to return at this time. 

Jim.  

[Eric JB]

Well at least you didn’t get the silver , made in Taiwan shafts that many other vendors sell. 

The Cv joints are stock VW bus.  They already come with heat treated internals but the vendors like to take credit for it. They are plenty strong enough for the task. Just sad that the vendors can’t be honest about what they are selling, and hide behind the Porsche 930 “style” description.

The axles are most likely a VW bus trans to a beetle chassis conversion axle(15.625). Silver zinc is cheap EMPI crap. Powder  coated white or red is usually Sway Away. Made in USA. Black I’m not sure but they look to be a stout piece. I would like to find the source of those. The MM stuff looks really good, but way too rich for this old tight ass. I will be buying my pieces separately and making the rest myself. Good luck.

BTW the $1000 kits that many sell, can be bought on EBay for $480 without the adapters.

 

 

[CHEQUERED FLAG JOE]

Hi Guys, there is big differances with CVs.  If parts wern't heat treated they would self destruct in no time. My kit is priced the way it is as I only use good quality parts.

This is the CVs I use in my kit.

http://www.rcvperformance.com/product-details.aspx?sku=301174M-28M

As you can see they are $265.00 each that's almost a 1/3 of the cost of my kit.

http://www.modern-motorsports.com/datsun-240z-280z-complete-cv-axle-conversion.html

 

Joe

[Eric JB]

Thank you for the clarification. This topic has bothered me for a long time, and this discussion needs to be had. Being an old VW guy since the 70's, as soon as I saw the $1000 kit that is offered by some, I recognized it. As I said, your stuff looks very nice,  actually the only kit I would consider if I had the $$$. I might be able to pull the trigger on a pair of stubs, someday. The main reason people step up to the real 930 cv's, is because they will survive with more angle than the bus cv. Not something we would be concerned with. Nothing wrong with a bus cv. But I wish people would call it what it is.

 

Edited January 26, 2018 by Eric JB