Guest Anonymous Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Gentlemen, Is there anyone on this page staying up with the 2nd degree murder trial involving 2 guy's drag racing on the streets of San Diego, CA.? The drag racing was on Imperial Ave. in the city of San Diego. The collision occured when a Saturn made a quick left in front of the racing cars. The driver and front passenge of the Saturn were killed. The rear passenge has brain damage and isn't expected to return to "normal". The racer that hit the Saturn was also hurt, and has recovered. The racer that wasn't in the collision, left the scene and later turned himself in. Do you think 2nd degree murder is the correct charger? It does carry a life in prison sentence. Or, do you think a charge of man slaughter is a better charge? Comments? Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 This is VERY interesting... I think when you look at how the law is written, you can certainly apply the 2nd degree charge to this case. Is it harsh? If you are the victim' families probably not. a Second Degree murder conviction typically will get you a 20-to-life conviction, but won't require you to stay incarcerated that length. On a ten year felony conviction you will typically pull 50% of that time OR LESS. 20-to-life will get you out in 8-10 years if you keep your nose clean. I personally think that the DA has a real good chance of getting this conviction IF the jury is a predomenately conservative jury. It really depends on HOW MUCH the street racing problem has been pumped up in the local media, and how much the judge is effected by it. Going for the lesser charge of voluntary manslaughter would have been a much more conservative, and guaranteed conviction/ plea down situation. This DA is looking to make a name and prove a point. This could backfire on the DA's office, or send this poor schmuck to jail for a VERY long time. However, that said, this guy did have a choice NOT to race... You play, you pay. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denny411 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 I agree with Mike. Also, if you are going to street race, you should at least have the good sense to take it out of town, away from other cars and potetial innocent victims. The people that race on city streets or in residential areas are just asking for trouble. The only places that I have ever street raced was on rural roads with no cross roads or driveway access anywhere in the course or shut down area. If something tragic were to happen, the only possible victims would be myself and the other driver. Both of us know the risks and have made the decicion to break the law and take those risks. In the case you are talking about, The victims were innocent bystanders that just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If they were my family members, I would want the driver that hit them to get whatever the max penalty could be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Your Car is Slow Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 I dont agree at all. While I think the kids were dipshits..and deserve whatever punishment they get for killing those people. Its obvious there was no intention to kill anyone during the race....it was accidental. Its my understanding that in order to be charged with murder...there has to be intent to kill...where as 2nd degree murder shows intent without premeditation. I fail to see any intent to kill anyone in this circumstance. Manslaughter is the most applicable charge IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 OK, Putting all emotion aside for a momeny, HERE is how the DA is proceeding: The racers, through blatant disregard for life (Both their own, and others), can be charged with 2nd Degree murder because doing such an obviously reckless act displayed their willingness to kill others. It is the same tact and argument used when an innocent bystander gets hit in a drive-by shooting... The victim was unintended, which doesn't lessen the charge... Will it get a conviction? Now THAT is the real question. One thing's for sure, it WILL be appealed if he is convicted. Remember what I said in my original comments... This DA is gambling to make a name for himself/ Herself, and to prove a point that "San Diego will NOT tolerate street racing on the streets, placing the lives of their fine citizens at risk... " Now, interjecting emotion... What if those killed were family members of yours? Different view when you look at it from that side of the fence, trust me... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Yourcarisslow, you are partially correct in that second degree requires no malice of forthought. However, Special circumstances allow for this particular charge when the crime is considered so heinous as to garner "Special Judicial prejudice". Again, doesn't mean they will get a conviction. But certainly falls within the guidlines for the charge based on the circumstances... I think it is a long shot and will likely get overturned on appeal if he is convicted. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Your Car is Slow Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Oh if they were my family members...Id want a different punishment altogether I just get so sick of how the law is twisted in ways to benefit someone other than the victims (in this case the DA and his/her office). A driveby shooting is a silly comparison...as a person charged with a driveby shooting had the intent to kill someone. Its pretty obvious that the kids racing were being morons....but had no intent whatsoever to kill anyone. They dont even charge drunk drivers with 2nd degree murder if they get behind the wheel and kill someone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denny411 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 I`m not sure how the laws are written in California, but I personally think there should be special circumstances if the person kills someone while commiting a felony. Again, i`m not sure if street racing is a felony in Cali, but it should be If it`s inside city limits or highly populated areas. My opinions are based purely on my own personal feelings. My 25yr old brother is possibly dieing from an unpreventable form of cancer. there is nothing that could have been done to keep him from getting it, and there is almost nothing they can do to help him. It seems to me that everyone is obligated to do everything possible to prevent the possible death of innocent people around you. Just by keeping your head out of your ass and having a little consideration for the possible victims of your actions, alot of sensless deaths could be prevented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 That sucks, for all parties involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 I dont agree at all. While I think the kids were dipshits..and deserve whatever punishment they get for killing those people. Its obvious there was no intention to kill anyone during the race....it was accidental. That doesn't give anyone thier life, or thier brain back. This is the same stuff I heard from people over the young girl burned beyond recognition due to an alcoholic driver, I think that is a CROCK of an argument. YOU KNOW ITS A RISK, AND YOU TOOK THAT RISK = YOU STILL ARE UNDER THE LAW. Ahh but my ego killed him Judge, it wasn't my fault. I like having fast cars, but lets not be dipshits about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Your Car is Slow Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Woahhhhh..back up Im not defending them at all....Im merely saying that two teenagers racing on the roads (something every single one of us has done at least once in our lives) should not be grouped in with the same person who robs a bank..and shoots a person on the way out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudge Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 I can agree with that on some small avenue, while they didn't mean too they still took that risk, and they knew the risks. I gotcha, you wouldn't believe how some people defended that other ___. Actually, I have never raced on the street in my life. Now on the interstate, or freeways going to work @ 3AM, I'm guilty of SPEEDING, used to drive to work @ 130 MPH every day in my Firebird, used to see between 3 and 5 people on the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Guy's, Maybe the information out there on the net is incorrect. The drag racer's charged are in their early 30's. These guy's are far from being kids. They have families and jobs. As a side note, both of the racer's own or have owned Datsun Z cars. The people in the Saturn were not by standers. They were returning home, which was about 1.5 blocks from the scene of the collision. Something you need to consider.... In California, if your in a left hand turn pocket (designated left hand turn lane) the law reads that you must yield the right of way to on coming traffic. The people in the Saturn, made a left hand turn in front of on coming traffic. Which partially caused the collision to occur. The other factor to consider is that the drag racer's were doing an estimated 87 MPH in a 50 MPH zone. It should be interesting to see how this case is turns out. Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Good info to share for sure. I'd recommend that we ALL look at this strictly from a legal/ what is on the books stance. We have ALL been guilty of bad judgement, and we have all gotten stupid in vehicles... Obviously these guys used bad judgement... I think the out come of the accident draws that conclusion for us all. Remaining neutral and emotion-free for a moment, the DA will argue that the sped used during this race was such that the victims in the Saturn could NOT have accurately judged the distance to be what it actually was, BASED ON the speed the vehicles in question were traveling. The fact that he made an illegal turn and failed to yield right of way is completely thrown out IF it can be proven that the vehicles who were cut off were speeding. This having just happened to my father yesterday, I can say that in Maryland BOTH vehicles get ticketed... My dad for failing to yield right of way, and the other driver for speeding... It will be VERY interesting to see how this turns out... ANYONE know the participants involved??? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 I couldn't agree with you more. Getting argumentative isn't going to help this discussion. From what I can tell, the drag racer's were not into V8 conversions on their Datsun's. The one defendent stated on the stand that he had owned 5 Datsuns. I wonder how many of them were Z's. One thing that surprised me was the DA's cross, where he went over all the modifications made to the cars. The defendants are saying that the modifications to cars were made because the parts had worn out. The fuel cell replaced a rusted out gas tank. The interior is out of the car because he was going to have it replaced. The NOS system that wasn't on the car, but had been before. The changing of the hood to a factory model that included a scoop and what that did for performance. The Alum. heads and who made them and what they were designed to do. If you look at the facts, The racers were friends and shared a common interest in cars. The defendents are George Waller Jr, and Lawrence Calhoun. They raced in an area considered a residential expressway. The race took place in the early evening, also referred to as dusk. The state considers it an agreement to race if you pull up to a traffic light and indicate in any matter that your willing to race. An agreement to street race means that you are willing taking risk. Acknowledging the risk, or being aware of the risk means that your disregarding the law. Gee's... that's not going to help the defendents. This is considered consious disregards of the the public. The race begins - the light turns green. Thank God there wasn't a person performing as a starter... or there would be a third defendant. When the drag racing cars were about a third of the way down the block, they were about side by side. A person in a Ford Ranger truck uses the same left hand turn pocket and makes a left hand turn. He indicates that he was able to tell the cars were drag racing. He was able to hear the engine reving. He also noticed that one car had its head lights on and the other car didn't. He also heard the collision behind him. The drag continued... Then the girl driving the Saturn with her boyfriend in the passenger seat turned in front of the racing cars. The car in the left lane (fast lane) avoids the collision. The car in the right lane (slow lane) hits the side of the Saturn at the beginning point of the passenger compartment at 87 MPH. The police come quickly and dertermine the result of the collision. After the collision, Lawrence Calhoun leaves the scene of the accident and doesn't call 911. Lawrence also does not admit any connection to the accident and denies involvment to Police investigators. Amazing as it may sound, Lawrence's actions are allowing him to be looking at more charges and jail time then Waller. Who's car was involved with the collision. Evidence presentations is expected to conclude today, tomorrow is closing and the jury goes to make some decisions.... Stay tuned or catch it live on your TV. My concerns.... like some of the others that login to this site, I have modified vehicles. I like others, consider this a hobby. It also consumes my time and keeps be away from other activities like chasing married woman, drinking in bars, or getting involved in the drug scene. It seems to me that the laws are changing and I'm concerned. Dodging smog laws in California is an art in itself. But now... if these guy's get convicted, that could change the value of modifing my cars. I bought a Corvette 2 years ago because it allowed me sport car performance, attractive styling, and a car that could withstand my driving characteristics. I have found that I get more offers to race the vette then any of my other cars... I have 3 240Z's. Two of them with SBC V8's in them. I really try to avoid street racing, but there are times when I exced the speed limit on a regular basis. Its rather common to drive 5MPH over the posted speed limit. It seems to me, if there is a 2nd degree murder conviction. It would mean that in most cases if your involved in street racing and someone is killed. The charge will be 2nd degree murder. To me... spending even 10 years in prison is very hard for me to consider doing. My perspective... the girl in the Saturn made an illegal left turn. Technically, I think the drag racers should walk away from the 2nd degree murder charge. I also think the defendants should not be charged togther. Manslaughter should be the charge with drag racing and reckless driving. The possible sentence on this is remains stiff... but it is more reasonable in my mind. So there's my 2 cents.... Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denny411 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 I`ve read the previous post, and I find it hard to believe that you are SOooo concerned about your "HOBBY". It sounds to me like you are more concerned about what charges you will get when/if you kill someone, more than the chance of actually killing someone. I`ll say it again, "IF YOU ARE GOING TO STREET RACE, GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS AND DO IT IN A RURAL AREA, WHERE THERE ARE NO CROSS ROADS OR DRIVEWAYS TO INTERFERE. Is it absolutely neccessary to race on residential highways? NO!! The problem with street racing in traffic is that when you are racing, you tend to get tunnel vision and only think about winning and staying "in it". You are too busy watching the other car or your tach to watch out for other cars on the road. I think you need to adjust your priorities from how convienient it is for you to race whenever/wherever you want and what charges you might face if some unlucky bastard just happens to be killed, to taking a few extra minutes to be sure that if someone dies during your race it is either you or the person you are racing. My .02 Like it or NOT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfly Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 I would like to put my 2 cents in on this as well. Jirst off I have not been keeping up with this as my wife does not like to see me get that wound up. Everything I have read in this post has been valid in my opinion but here is some more information that you will not see on TV. The street they were racing on is two lanes in each direction of travel with a center turn lane, on one side of the street are a set of trolly tracks then just beyond the tracks is a frontage road, on the other side of the street is a frontage road. Imperial Ave. is also a very straight street in that area and has been used for many many years by street racers because it is so easy to see whats around you. With that said I feel that the statement "there is no such thing as an accident" is very true. The guys racing were taking a chance as there is no doubt in my mind that they could see the other vehicles before they started. I also feel that what killed the girl driving the other car her boyfriend and severely injured her brother was a blatant lack of awarenes on her part, as stated earlier the speed limit is 50 mph and left turns have yeild signs, the only driver who will make a left in fron of oncoming traffic that is only a half block away (and for all practical purposes traveling 50 mph) is someone who never looked up before turning or someone who is in enough of a hurry to be willing to risk thier life by turning in front of fast moving traffic. In San Diego at this time they are trying to make an example out of everyone who has any mods to thier vehicle, and I believe that had these guys been driving at or below the speed limit and not even known each other it would have still been all over the news as a drag race related accident. Something else to keep in mind is that in the past few years in San Diego they have started a program called "Race Legal" that has taken a lot of races off the streets and with that the number of race related accidents/deaths has decreased. One last thing and I will hop off my soap box for now, race legal has asked the city to allow them to take a piece of city property (which has never been used for anything) and allow a perminant 1/4 mile track to be built (no city expense) and the city turned them down flat with no explination that I am aware of. The message that sends to me is that the city would rather make money off the kids in the streets than provide a safe alternative. BTW no matter what you may hear on tv the city of San Diego has nothing to do with race legal, race legal is funded by a grant from SDSU and is run by voulenteers and set up on private property (Qualcomm Stadium parrking lot), which they have to pay to use. Ok I think I will stop for now before I write a book. Dragonfly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 The problem I have with street racing is the street is an uncontrolled environment. Race tracks go to great lengths to minimize the number of unforeseen things that can bite you, and even then racing at the track is dangerous at best. No matter how good of a driver you are or how well prepared your car is, there are simply too many things can go wrong. There is no safe place to race on the streets. I know how easy it is to take statements out of context with internet posts, but if any of you guys are trying to defend these two unfortunate souls then you need to wake up and smell the coffee. I think murder charges are excessive, but judging from some of the posts in this thread it seems like some of you guys still haven't gotten the message. Think about what you are saying. People are trying to down play this scenario, talking like what those two guys did wasn't that outrageous. And while in the grand scheme of things I agree, the simple fact remains that people are dead as a result of their actions. Think about it. Forget the courts, I wouldn't want to live that down. And one last point. IMO the girl making an illegal turn is only relevant in that it supports what I said above, things will happen that you can't control. Don't try and shift blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfly Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Jim you are absolutely correct in your post and mine does read as if I feel the racers are getting the short end of the stick, please allow me to clarify a little. I wrote what I did because I place some of the blame on the city of San Diego, I personaly do not agree with street racing and I only race on the track (that is one reason why I am a volunteer with race legal). I feel that everyone should be held responsible for their actions and in this case nature held the girl responsible for her actions and the courts will hold the racers responsible for theirs. Here is an incident that happened in SD a little over a year ago to give you an idea why I think the city of SD condones people who do not pay attention to reality. There was a high speed chase where police where in persuit of an armed suspect, the suspect blew through a red light at a very high rate of speed aproxamately 3 seconds behind the suspect where several police cars with lights and sirens going. Sitting in the left turn lane on the side street a lady saw her light turn green she then saw a car blow through the intersection at a very high rate of speed, rather than looking or listining to what was going on around her she pulled into the intersection and was T-boned by the lead police car, she died instantly. The city of SD found the police at fault in this accident. I once heard a crash investigator say that the best way to prevent crashes was to install a 12" sharpened steel spike in the center of the steering wheel, that way everyone will pay attention and not do anything stupid behind the wheel. Dragonfly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgia Flash Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Official Code of Georgia 40-6-393 Homicide By Vehicle (a) any person who, without malice aforethought, causes the death of another person through the violation of subsection (a) of code section 40-6-163 (overtaking and passing of school bus) or subsection ( of code section 40-6-270 (Leaving the scene of accident with injuries or death) or Code section 40-6-390 (Reckless Driving) or 40-6-391 (D.U.I.) or subsection (a) of Code section 40-6-395 (Fleeing or Attempting to Elude Police) commits the offense of homicide by vehicle in the first degree and, upon conviction threrof, shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than three years nor no more than 15 years. The sentence is longer if you have been declared a habitual violator and cause the death of another while involved in an accident under the above rules. Under GA law the two racers would probably be charged under the above code section or under Code section 16-5-3 Involuntary Manslaughter which states: A person commits the offense of involuntary manslaughter in the commission of an unlawful act when he causes the death of another human being without any intention to do so by the commission of an unlawful act other than a felony. You gotta figure that there will be two charges brought against these knuckle heads for the two people that lost their lives. Street Racing is just stupid! It's funny, whenever a cop has to chase someone and a person looses a life, everyones jumps in the cops ass for chasing. But when something like this happens there are actually idiots who try and place blame on the victims in the Saturn, Sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.