SportZ2 Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Hey guys, I'm putting this out there to see if it's worth my time and an article in Sport Z Magazine. I'm thinking of converting my Z first in the Scarab position and running it through a series of tests. I would then like to do the conversion in the Setback position using the same setup and running it through the same tests. I think that this would give the best results in deciding the pros and cons of both since the conditions in which they would be tested would be the same. I have all of the materials already fabracated to do both so the switch would be easy. The only difference in the two would be the length of the exhaust. I would have a connector in the middle where I can change them out for both positions without changing the exhaust. My request from you guys would be to suggest what tests should be run to determine the differences. This is a chance to see both conversions run under the exact same conditions. I'm not looking to do major upgrades to the suspension at this time. I'm interested in getting a baseline to compare to. I will have the car weighed and try to find a place where I can weight it front to back to see the exact weight distribution of both. If this sounds too crazy, tell me and I won't waste my time. Art Singer Associate Publisher Sport Z Magazine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David K Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Run both of them in the 1/4 mile. Run both of them in a slalom. Run them both on the skidpad. I think that should show how different the 2 positions are. Oh yeah, also document the cost of each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ON3GO Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 that sound pretty cool.. i say do it.. and i would love to read it too! you should also have a Hybrid Z section also where can i send some pic of my car and project? mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted September 13, 2003 Share Posted September 13, 2003 Definitely put the car on a set of corner weights. I would be curious to see the weight distribution between the two modes of conversion. Also a 60-0 brake distance test. have a 'pro' driver take it around the track in both configurations and get lap times, and driver's subjective feedback (John Coffey, you there?) And, lastley, give some idea of any difference in 'ease' of maintenance of the engine (being able to get to the motor and accessories). My 2c... Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 Don't forget the driveshaft I'd love to see if it is really worth the effort. I've been contemplating moving my engine back for years. This comparo will definetly push me one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Juday Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 Yes please. Granted, this will be a lot of work, but the results will be well worth it. People will be reading your report for years. This is the type of thing Sport Z Mag needs to revitalize it. I second the suggestion to include a regular Hybrid section as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportZ2 Posted September 14, 2003 Author Share Posted September 14, 2003 This will be a basic setup to start. For me to do this in a reasonable timeframe, I can't play the "while I'm at game" or I'll be a hundred when I'm done. I will put in a hi performance 350 (already built, sitting in the garage) and an auto transmission (I have a 350 ready to go, but I'm trying to trade my 350 and a 400 for a 200 overdrive. If I can't get one soon, I'll live with the 350 for the test. The only upgrade that won't be drive train related will be the Toyota calipers. Everything else will be bone stock. I plan on using the nissan auto shifter (I want the interior to look stock-not for the test, but for myself) with a modified lever to fit the tranny. If you think I should use the B&M shifter I have, tell me now, but I'm not interested in chopping up the console. I would just leave it out. If someone wants to be the driver, by all means step up to the plate. I'm not a auto crosser or a road coarse driver (Although I'd like to think I am, I'm drag race oriented). I would be willing to drive within 450 miles of my house which puts Denver and Phoenix within distance and Dallas as a long shot. But the testing sites would be up to you since it would be in your area. Also keep in mind that to make this as even as possible, the scarab test would be ran sometime in early November and the setback would be run in early spring. Don't think I want to be testing in the dead of winter. Your thoughts? I will cross my fingers that there is no hangups and since I've already done the setback conversion before, I think this will go pretty smoothly. In actuality, the scarab looks like a piece of cake on the surface. Please keep in mind that this is going to be a side by side comparison of the conversions, not what the best engine and tranny combo should be. I should be pulling the motor in 2 weeks, I will spend some time on the engine bay before starting. I will keep everyone posted. Bare in mind I have a wife, a 5 year old and a magazine to produce (plus i have to attend the National Convention) so delays could happen. Patience is a virtue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAFantaZ Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 Why not build two Z's with identical drivetrain setups, one scarab, one jtr? Then the driver can do the tests on the same day and really feel the differences. The only advantages of the scarab I can see are the use of full-length headers, and maybe easier to work on (starter, oil pan, bell housing, trans lines, speedo cable, etc.), and stock hood latch without having to cut any metal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 Art, Contact me offline... I've got a few ideas... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 I wish you lived closer. I think if you had the driveshafts, exhaust connectors, and rad hoses you could do the switch in a few hours to test on the same weekend. There are two more areas that concen me. The shifter and the headers. Since the Nissan shifter is rod actuated you will need to do have a different sized rod for each setup. And the Scarab full length headers will hit the steering shaft when the enging is in the JTR position. I'm very interested in this test, Art. If there is anything I can help you with please email me. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Z-rific Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 As mentioned earlier, your headers will be different. The scarab setup will benefit from full length headers readily available from Hooker. To get a full length type header from the JTR position, you may need custom made headers. You could just go with block huggers on both, if you're purely testing "drivable" differences. But that would be ignoring what could be an advantage of scarab. I too, would be interested in seeing practical comparisons. My guess would be the 1/4 mile times would be the same, but skid pad/slalom times would be different, especially if the driver has the chance to get a lot of road time with both, and can get real comfortable with both setups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportZ2 Posted September 14, 2003 Author Share Posted September 14, 2003 Okay, the two cars thing can't happen, I don't have that kind of money to put together 2 of everything. Granted this would be the best thing, but I think this is the next best. The reason I was thinking of doing this was because I have the driveshifts and mounts for both. I bought a Z with the Scarab setup a while back, kept the driveline and junked the car and I did the setback in 95, kept the driveline and junked the car. I was going to use the block huggers for both since that's what was on the scarab I bought. I can use the full length header if need be. I can fab connectors to a point on the exhaust so that I won't have to have two completely different exhausts. Keep in mind that after the scarab is tested and I do the setback, I will be staying in the setback. I just figured it would be nice to test these conversions since the scarab requires no torching and once it is in, the setback is much easier to do and the fact that the car being used would have no differences except for the conversions. The main reason for even thinking of doing this is that I have the basic stuff to do both and I thought it would be neat to compare. I'm not interested in turning it into a marathon project. Just two basic setups to compare against. If anyone has done this before, it won't make sense for me to do it since my final setup will be the setback and the scarab would be nothing more than time wasted for me. I guess my real question is: Is doing this worth it to everyone to see the differences in it's most basic form? Or do you feel that the accuracy of the tests will be compromised if it isn't done with major changes to each conversion. Something I'm not interested in doing since my altimate goals is to be driving the car for myself. This post is doing exactly what I wanted it to do, help me to see if it's all worth it and that it will help everyone in the end. Mike, I'll give you a call this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim240z Posted September 14, 2003 Share Posted September 14, 2003 I think that, at the end of the day, it will be academic, because having the motor lower and further back is, by default a better position. That said, I think that it is a worthwhile (and to the best of my knowledge, never been done before) test. Do it. Even if the results are somewhat subjective, it will be interesting, and as said above, [this comparison] will be referred to for years to come. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportZ2 Posted September 14, 2003 Author Share Posted September 14, 2003 I was thinking about this more, isn't a true baseline test at it's best when using the exact same setups. If I change/use different headers, doesn't that compromise the test? The whole reason for this is to have a baseline to compare to later down the road. The same reason why seperate motors should not be used, because no two motors can be built exactly the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rags Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 I think you should change as little as possible besides the position of the engine. I'm only interested in if it would be worth my trouble to move my engine. Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. G. Olphart Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 I would really like to see the results of this test... I'd like to see what penalty the Scarab pays in autocross/lap times for it's better ground clearance. Using block huggers in both tests makes sense, as full length headers can make more power (and this would skew lap times). If you hold to one test this fall and another in the spring, sacking the tires over the winter can help limit air cure for more consistent adhesion test to test. It would also be nice to have similar temp & humidity on test days (or a good computer program to somehow standardize the results). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavyZ Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Art, I think your idea about keeping the cars as similar as possible in nearly every respect is great. And, as stated previously, the headers are going to be an issue. For the short time that I owned a Scarab 240Z, the headers were full length and the steering rod went right through them--I don't remember the block huggers being able to fit(?!) but that may be just my memory. If this turns out to be true, try to use a "short" header that works for the Scarab set up to keep the power levels about the same for the comparo. I know that goes without saying, but full-length vs shorty isn't exactly equivalent. In my mind, that is the biggest obstacle. Also, you can get a number of people to drive the cars in their respective fields of expertise, and then let them comment on each set up. In other words, get a drag racer to do the drag racing; get an autocrosser to do the autocrossing, etc. The article would be like the king of all articles as far as I'm concerned, especially if you keep it as "scientific" as possible. I rather like the idea of using the SAME car for the test. That way, there is no fudging the numbers. Thanks for taking the time, money, and inspiration to so this. Davy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 To chime in here. A true comparison has as few variables as possible - or it isn't a true comparison. If the goal is to compare the scarab vs. the setback then absolutely everything else should be the same. Obviously the exhaust length and driveshaft length will change and that should be documented but everything else needs to be identical. In addition to the performance comparisons previously listed it would be good to detail differneces in ease of installation, ease of maintenance, any clearance issues either one has with other components. How about the auxillaries like AC? These conversions can't strictly be all about the final performance. It needs to be about cost, time, versatitlity, and ease of maintenance too. A guy who wants one for a daily driver will need different data vs a drag racer vs a crooked track guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 My personal opinion on this is: It doesn't matter. Those who have the Scarab setup are passionate about their setups. They won't believe anything that they don't want to. All it takes is looking back to the thread where Kim Blough and I went back and forth on the issue. I'd love for you to do this Art. Keeping it as close a comparison as posible is the only true way to make people take notice. However, even with the closest of comparison, people will find things to dispute. In the end, it comes down to choice. Kinda like arguing over the "Perfect color" for the car... There are guys who can make a scarab Z run well, because it suits their driving style. Similarly, there are guys who can drive the wheels off the JTR setup and can't drive the Scarab setup, due to their driving style... Goodluck with the comparison. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest zfan Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 I have driven both and must say I didn't feel there was much difference in either one. If given a choice I would take the JTR over the Scarab just for the front clearance. It was a mother getting the taurus fan in there so close to the pully's. That said I own a Scarab and Love her as well. Either one is better than none! Good luck either way. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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