Some info on the Aluminum 5 lug Hubs and their Brake setup.

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

I am truly glad that the point about the tooling has come through. I will mention and hopefully this is the last time.. My rails are set to the same diameter standard as the eclipse O ring rail is. Using precision machines to accomplish this. I have tested my rail with a series of up and down pressure spike ( using my hand power gripping strength .I just don't know another way to do this than the CNC. What was presented by Pallnet was no different than what I presented in a pressure test.

I honor now a 5 day money back guarantee to let the customer decide now if my work is at their full satisfaction and not feel trapped in a purchase. I have run my barb rails all year since they came out in April. So has a friend of mine who has used my rail and 300zx vented spacers as well at New Hampshire International SpeedWay of continuous 15 minute laps 4 times. All NPT fittings are CNC machined and I haven't had a flaw in my machine tooling since part one. Personally no matter how much a part is tested there is the liability concern we all have to face as small business suppliers.. Nobody can guarantee that there will be no problems down the road.

 

How many times do you see people suggesting others to build your own rail. It seems like a good idea but why haven't we jumped in and halted that person from his suggestions?

I really hope some of my customers will come forward with testimonials as I myself cannot prove anything and feel I cannot convince.There are many voices out there that have my o ring rails and well as the barbed rails.

 

As for the Hubs I would be willing to go to any expense to build these and meet the criteria mention. The cost will go up for sure as metals can differentiate in cost extremely. The time of setting up multiple machines for the hub work is expensive. $65 an hr is not fun dealing with for making just 2 hubs for testing. I can take my chances and have the hubs machined in large quantities and have a set to be tested or simply machine 4 of them to only setup the machines and pay top dollar all over again for production.

 

Make this a possibility! I don't have all the answers for you right now as to what it would cost but give me some time.

 

It may very well be that I will be taking my brakes off the market and the fuel rails as well. I think I can do much better work on making original items and designs meant for engine and interior accessories as well as universal items

 

Thank you again.

Juan

[tyson]

Well Im glad to hear all of pallnets parts were tested in a freezer and oven attached to vibrators and gauges. So tyson you tested his fuel rail by running it down the dragstrip and you say it held up fine. Im glad you tested before then so you knew you wouldnt be blown up on the way down the strip. Personally I dont give a flip about a fuel rail or a tb spacer. I think you guys expect too much. I also believe I was misunderstood. I think the products should be tested but not to the point of spending alot of money and doubling the cost of the part. I personally would agree to a waiver of some sort to release jsk of all liability after purchasing a product. You would be surprised how many aftermarked companies actually have a setup like this. The thermal expansion on these parts is probably going to be alot less then is being insinuated. The brakes are going to heat up and on a road coarse autox or similar even are going to heat up way more than street use. However only some of that heat will transfer to the hub and only in extreme use will it cause enough change to place stress on the bearings if any. We are not running the indy 500 in our cars and if you are I think you should be buying parts elsewhere.

 

I got mine from Pallnet, because he has the credentials to show that he knows what he is doing. I am 100% positive Pallnet (and probably JSKs) rail would pass the test that I suggested. What I was implying is that would be an ideal test for the fuel rail's craftsmanship, rather than a 60 second video.

 

(Correct me if I'm wrong) I also believe that pallnet left a rail pressurized with ~60psi for 24 hours and it showed no leaks. Granted 24 hours isnt a hell of a long time in the life of a fuel rail, but it does show that some testing has been done on it.

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

I forgot to mention that if there was going to be concern with he hubs it would be first through the brake hats. This is the initial point of heat before meeting the hubs should it go that far. I have built hats extremely strong for this reason. I do not hollow my hats out like other manufactures do to save half a pound or dome shape them. The only hat I would bore/hollow a bit out on the inside is 300zx hat because of the further .75 inch needed to use with the 300zx hubs. I really see the whole credential as a way to easily say I haven't R and D.

 

I really look forward to go through some more fuel o ring rail testing seeing that his rail did not leak at 60 psi for 24 hrs why not leave it on for one week at 100 psi or higher? Why not hang the rail upside down pulling on it with 90lbs of gym weights while under pressure. I have followed the design of the rail to be extremely solid using oem design and the best possible way to make the rail affordable and provide stock injector mountings.

 

Alright notice this picture below

 

 

 

 

That is a rail from an eclipse as well and Toyota in the back ground. The rails do 3 jobs all at once. Seals, makes sure the injectors don't pop off and , provide structural strength to the unit itself ( the rail) 3 of them run all down 4 injectors. Heavy duty.

I have used stock injector mounts at each injector to eliminate stress at the top of the O ring rail. IN doing so I have made the top of the O ring rail strong to help hold the rail in place.This also properly helps to seal the bottom of the injector into the manifold using stock injector mounts. I am not reinventing but reusing structural components. Where the top mounts come in with 90mm bolts it only presses the rail so far down using copper tubes or stainless steel if you want to get fancy and expensive. Pressing the copper tubes down tightly into the intake not onto the rail provides great strength from side to side movement. I have pound on the rail at 150 psi. Movement is the key. If something is going to leak it would have leaked immediately. O rings just don't spring leaks when they feel like while testing. if there is going to be a flaw regarding the rail it would be in the mounting setup and the bores of the O ring not properly machined.

 

Did I mention I did my pressure test with 2 different size O rings? Is that not enough credentials to prove my rail doesn't leak with fire around me. Some thought it was awesome, others say I am nuts, others think I have hurt myself. No I made sure to make it strong that way for this very purpose of demonstration. Sure fuel could have leaked out from the injectors sprayers. That's not the part but my own stupidity for going to that level of demonstration. Just think about it. Did I set a new level of demonstration? Did I provide credentials? What I really should have done was provided O ring plugs on the bottom of my rails but how does that show it was the real deal? It had to be done this way in order to show the FIRE test.

 

You know it is 23 degrees outside now. I live in NY so I can just dump the rail outside under pressure and have to waste my time in doing so. why would it leak in the freezing cold? I didn't make the O rings, I made the rails to oem bore size and know it shouldn't leak. Hmm this is getting exciting and look forward to jumping and frocking around in the snow as we have been dumped with another 2 feet of it .

[stjoetalon]

AHHHH! This makes my brain hurt!

 

I have no engineering experience, so I cant help there. Most people who have made comments have about as much experience as I do. Those of you with experience, please keep the suggestions coming. It is very beneficial to him Im sure.

 

Here is the deal. You cant put a pricetag on safety, right? Thats great. If you dont feel safe with the product, dont buy it. Did each one of you with cages make sure the builder built and crash tested numerous cages before even considering him/her? Highly doubtful. And a cage is just as critical as hubs. What about seat brackets? Engine and tranny mounts?(like stated above) What about some of the things cobbled together for the steering shaft? Im sure they all have years of R&D behind them.

 

So he had a 60 sec vid. Do you want him to show a weeks worth of solid vids of a pressure test? I dont get it. Instead why dont you ask him what kind of testing was done. Maybe he performed more than you think. I would be happy to help test them, but I do not plan on spending that kind of money on my Z. Maybe some of you drag racers would like to launch on them for a while. Maybe a roadracer would bite the bullit and make a few laps on a set. Maybe not. If you arent willing to help, why criticize?

 

Yes, he should have an outside source test them. Years of testing is always good. If it was me, I would be insured out the ass. But then you all will bitch because the hubs are a grand a piece. He isnt a large vendor wanting to make millions of parts. From what I gather, he is a small vendor that is interested in making small batches of parts that nobody is even willing to attempt, that would benefit the community greatly. Like stated above. If your expecting an oem part, buy oem(if they made one). If you want a custom piece, make it yourself, or rely on the guys in the trenches making parts no one else wants to make. He is offering samples to send out. His confidence says volumes to me. I have never seen a small vendor in a small niche community offer to do so. Try them. Take them to your engineering instructors. Smash them with a sledge hammer. Check them out. He is offering. If you dont like it, let us all know so we can avoid them. But until you do so, you probably dont have much room to judge them. Hell you havent even seen them yet!

[datsunlover]

AHHHH; this whole thread is starting to make my brain hurt!

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Thats why it is never ending . I take baby steps when I post lol

[tyson]

This topic has gone so far off the original debate that its not even funny.

 

Please dont criticize me for knocking the 60 second test....Juan never spoke of any additional tests for the rail that have been done to date, and every test we have heard about is the "whoop whoop" test and the flame test.

 

I would love to see a test of the rails like I have suggested....Is it nessesary? No.....Would freezing cold have any affect on O-rings? Dunno, ask NASA about their frozen O-ring on the Challenger shuttle. This is a very easy test to conduct, as I have said before it would be the closest thing to actual driving conditions that you could get.

 

But the rail isnt the big deal here, as it is much easier to make a rail leakproof than it is to make an aluminum hub wear-proof.

 

Couple questions....

 

#1. Why havent auto manufacturers gone to aluminum hubs?

#2. Doesnt it worry you that aluminum is softer than steel, and it may wear out over time?

 

Now I'm not saying that outside testing needs to be done, you dont need to send these wheels to some testing company and have them find the weaknesses in them, for that alone would raise the price on the hubs much farther than anyone here would be willing to pay.

 

What I am saying is that you should find some ways to test them, and find an enginner experienced in this area, and see what he thinks of them.

 

This isnt a roll cage, where something else may fail and the rollcage is there as a backup...Also most cage designers KNOW how cages are designed in the first place...they KNOW how to weld metals together and make them strong....If you are going to some backyard mechanic for your roll cage, you need to have your head checked because there is a lot that goes into them, both experience with roll cages, and many years of welding are required to make a safe cage.

 

This isnt a seat rail where if you need it, something has probably already failed to cause the accident. Again if you are trusting your life to a guy with a $200 welder and a few welds of experience....you need to have your head checked.

 

If your hub fails at high speeds...You had better hope that you have a good seatbelt, and a good roll cage, and also a little bit of luck on your side. If you are trusting your life to someone with no experience in this field, and relativly no testing on a newly designed wheel hub....you need to have your head checked.

[pallnet]

This is one way i had test the LEXAN TB spacers. I gave a handfull of them out with the out to ppl i knew that raced and some that drove their cars hard on the street. I had about 4 of them floating around and there was the one on my car. They lived in different climates. This went on for right under a years time (11 months).. Nothing bad was said so after all the test I performed, the spacers surviving real world conditions and what I knew about LEXAN. I felt that it would be a safe product to run on our cars. Don't get me wrong, LEXAN can be damaged, just highly unlikely in the way it's being used as a TB spacer.

 

May be this could be one of your ways of testing. Nothing is being sold. It is a gift and the person assumes the risk of use. In return you will have their testamony as one of your proofs of reliability. 4 people to run them would be very good on your behalf. Different climates and conditions.

 

Oh yeah Juan. heat can come from bearing too..... pallnet

[Afshin]

Hey tyson, what’s your problem? Are you trying to make absolutely sure that you make an a$$ of yourself. You have the nerve to tell people you do not agree with an inexperienced person like yourself to have their heads examined? What is it with all this anger? Does your job suck? Did your partner leave you? I suggest you take a chill pill and stop polluting the forum with your aggressive posts until you learn to contribute in a more appropriate manner. This forum is for Z enthusiasts to share knowledge and ideas, find another place to pick a fight. And please, let this post end. I doubt you have anything new to say

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

no testing on a newly designed wheel hub

 

Im willing to get this tested as mentioned earlier in my posts. I can do it in steel as mentioned in earlier posts. One pair aluminum and one pair steel. IM up for it. This would truly mean alot of the Z field of knowledge and for my own benefit. What ever time and extent of the testing I will do it for.

I do my best with my ability to ask for suggestion on this board. If someone says I should drop the project I sincerely would. The suggestions I have received is to get the hubs tested out professionally and I will seek this.

Build a professional part get it tested by a professional lab. What a combo!

 

IN doing so I may possibly generate enough orders with satisfactory result where we can all afford some of these hubs and brake setups. IM trying to make some changes at the way we view demand. The key ingredient is not profit but generating funds from my previous work and dump it into upcoming products. I will take some time and work on some other projects to help get some more of this needed funds

Thank you

[tyson]

Hey tyson, what’s your problem? Are you trying to make absolutely sure that you make an a$$ of yourself. You have the nerve to tell people you do not agree with an inexperienced person like yourself to have their heads examined? What is it with all this anger? Does your job suck? Did your partner leave you? I suggest you take a chill pill and stop polluting the forum with your aggressive posts until you learn to contribute in a more appropriate manner. This forum is for Z enthusiasts to share knowledge and ideas, find another place to pick a fight. And please, let this post end. I doubt you have anything new to say

 

Wow that was one hell of a constructive post.

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Well its time to go. I didn't mean to get anyone into entanglement. Lets see what I/we can do and go from there.

In return this being at my expense I have turn this around and educated you with the test results!

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Why haven't auto manufacturers gone to aluminum hubs

 

 

I am not usually one to quote so I apologize. I know the feeling of it and feel it can be rude at times .

Well Tyson I don't think Automotive designers have a need to go aluminum. They will build their steel hubs the way it should be.

What the main point of the aluminum hub is to use aluminum which is very affordable compared to steel. Our Z hubs haven't been cutting it when it comes to finding wide wheels and the nice deep dish look. Some strong points that I bring with the hubs are additional reinforcement for the positive offset. The mounting flange would be 32 mm thick to be exact. This includes the 35mm offset. We can fix the bearing seal problem as well. BY doing this hub it means making a brake setup for the stock 300zx hubs on the 280z.Im trying to kill 3 birds with one stone. Were able to accomplish alot here doing it all at once.

 

I have been collecting some items on eBay. Looking at them evaluating and educating myself. Here is an aluminum suspension component out of a z32. Any opinions ? The mounting flange get ready for this is just a tad over 9mm for a 3200 pound car! Mine will be 32mm.

Do you think taking apart this spindle to examine it and get dimensions on it help?

 

 

 

 

 

I think another alternative is to get custom wheels made for our z's.I always thought it would be better to simply spend a little more money and avoid the hassle with 5 lug wheels and rear adapters.

thanks

Juan

[Afshin]

Ahhh! temper, temper getting the better of me

I just looked at my last post I have to apologize for my tone being as inappropriate as the person I was criticizing. I just hate seeing undue bashing. Perhaps the moderators can delete my and tyson's last post.

[Mikelly]

Here is the true problem with producing a product that is anything other than "Visual" in function and form:

 

In order to make a functional load bearing part, you must test and R&D the parts, as well as doing appropriate structural and stress analysis... To do this COSTS money, LOTS.

 

SO, I make a part and sell it ONLY AFTER I mortgage my home to do the proper analysis and testing/ R&D work to develope a "Certified" solution.

 

I put the part out on the market and I try to re-coup my investment... But because I've spent oh, say $10K in research, R&D, and analysis, My prices are higher than I'd like, And certainly not competative...

 

Welcome to the perplexing world of aftermarket parts development... If I don't do the proper research and development, I can make the parts with less overhead, and pass the saving along to the consumer. However, the engineers in the group will come out of the woodwork to criticize my parts because I didn't do the appropriate amount of R&D/ Research. If I spend the money and jack the prices up accordingly, I'm badmouthed in the industry for being to expensive.

 

Again, there is an answer here... You guys who are complaining on this thread should contact him offline. Are you interested in his parts? Would you buy them if Ross C. Made them? Ross is an engineer... Would that help? Would you buy the parts even this guy did the proper analysis and spent the money, had them certified for certain load strengths and fatigue standards?

 

Juan, you are doing yourself more harm than good by continuing to respond to this thread. Take a lesson From Ross C and Mike G. and DO NOT respond to this thread anymore. If you must, respond offline to the people who are questioning you. Get your act together, do your research, and cover your ass legally. If you can NOT do this, I'd recommend get out while the getting is good. The potential liability could ruin you for the rest of your life.

 

NOTHING good will come of this thread...

Mike Kelly

[Mikelly]

Unfortunately I now have to moderate the thread... :evil

 

Tyson and Afshin.. Both of you tone it down...

 

This site will not deal with flaming of each other... Politely disagree, but don't break it down into a flamefest...

 

Consider yourselves warned...

Mike:

[kj280z]

Mike,

 

I'm with you 100%

 

It seems like you and I have been trying to give Juan the right advice required to proceed with his project and a few others are bashing which isn't necessary.

 

I have to say I'd love to see the part made, but I say that cautiously knowing there's much more to the process... which we've both tried to explain to Juan.

 

Why don't we end the thread like this...

 

Everyone do a little research into services available to R&D aftermarket parts that Juan could approach about the project and provide him some constructive options for him to pursue from a business perspective.

 

What I think all of you will find is the EYE OPENING complexities of the process and the associated costs to do it right. I think you'll have new respect for people like Juan trying to provide services in this industry...

 

Juan... Take our advice and look into it... It's your business and it's your choice how you run it. I think for the most part everyone is trying to help and give advice... Sometimes the impersonal nature of a thread will cause this... Mike stated it right on... There's no need for you to respond to this stuff... it won't help you...

 

Business can be tough, but if approached correctly anything can be done with some creativity and doing your homework...

 

As I said before, the cost of the part will naturally be higher, but it's a required peice to the puzzle of aftermarket part development (especially load bearing parts)

[Dave240Z]

After reading through this whole thread the irony is just killing me. We, as a Z car community, are always complaining about the lack of available aftermarket parts yet when an individual/company steps up to fill one of these gaps all of the "Engineers" jump in and start condemning the people/company/product because it wasn't tested to their liking or that it was too expensive.

 

This whole aftermarket thing is really a catch22. The money required to perform all the R&D and testing people would like to see done (whether or not it is justified) must be recouped through product sales. This is business 101 as I don't think any of us are wealthy enough to offer our services as a charity to the Z car community. This invariably would dictate a higher per unit cost just to break even and here's where the catch comes in. The same people who demanded the R&D and testing refuse to pay the higher price stating that "This part isn't worth $XX, it's just a piece of aluminum." or something to that effect. Let alone the risk that copycats will start to come out of the woodwork, invariably selling the product for a cheaper price because THEY do not have to recoup any R&D/testing costs to break even.

 

There's an old saying around Engineers "There are three design criteria; leadtime, cost, functionality...choose any two." I believe the same basic premise holds true here reworded slightly "Choose any two out of the three; R&D, cost or functionality." And, contrary to what some people may believe, you don't need to perform FMEA or other type of failure analysis on every part, just those areas/parts that are critical in some way. On that note, I would agree that testing of an aluminum hub would be a wise idea due to it's critical nature (a failure can lead to catastrophic consequences) but let's not be surprised when the hub costs $500+ea OK?

 

Also, the approach of slamming the supplier is not very conducive to anything. If you have concerns, by all means please voice them but please refrain from flaming or slamming the individual. This aggressive approach is what makes fellow enthusiasts and innovators such as Juan shy away from any future endeavors since it quickly becomes a situation which is more trouble than it's worth.

 

As a case-in-point I'm a design engineer by trade and have developed several parts (300ZX brake rotor adapters, fuel distribution block, etc...) over the years for the Z car. I have been asked repeatedly by fellow enthusiasts at shows, etc...about producing copies of those parts for them. I have always refused and will continue to do so until such time that I can afford to start a company under a LLC and cover my family assets for the exact reasons I stated above. But, doing so would mean the parts would cost more $$$ which in the Z car community in particular is a recipe for failure.

 

Back on topic...I think Juan has a great idea which obviously has garnered a good bit of interest. With a little R&D/testing, most of the concerns can be addressed. I sincerely hope Juan continues to innovate new products for the Z car and I look forward to having another Z car supplier to do business with.

[stjoetalon]

DONT GIVE UP JUAN!

[Guest Looking for apt in Alb Ny]

Hey thanks. I have been thinking hard. Its time to pull out the big bucks. I will be making great changes to my website and show the mother page I have been working on. I will leave a link to the Z parts as well.

 

I have submitted the information on getting 2 hubs in aluminum and 2 hubs done in steel. I will return with this info. I really appreciate everyone here in helping to make this possible.

Juan