Do guns cause violence?

[Pop N Wood]

Pop-in-woods' date=' You wrongfully assume that I'm a republican, based on the comments I've made... I place my faith in our US government based on the work I do, based on the information I have access to, and based on what I know to be true. I do NOT watch political talk shows. Our media reports things with such distortion that getting the facts from them often is an exercise in futility. You keep reading the papers, and buying into their big lie... I'll continue getting up at 4:00AM and driving an hour and ten minutes to work, in a government building, with senior executives from EVERY BRANCH of the government's intelligence community. I get my warm security blanket handed to me through my knowledge of the fact that what is reported by a mostly liberal press is as good a fiction as any Steve King has inked. I get my warm and fuzzy from the horses mouth, and won't play into the media machine that controls and drives popular opinion.

Mike [/quote']

 

I have made no such assumption. Merely reading your words concerning the “current administrationâ€. You seem to have ignored my remark concerning the constitution.

 

And be careful of your assumptions. I don’t watch political talk shows either and I read and questions many things. Your job is no more important to national security than mine; the only difference between us is I live a reasonable commuting distance from work.

 

Also I have heard you regularly use your job as some kind of credentials that you have insider information. I also remember you stating before the war pretty categorically about Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction. Maybe they had them and just were very successful in getting rid of them, I don’t know. But if not, then this wouldn’t be the first time our intelligence sources have missed the mark. The events leading up to the Korean War and the Tet Offensive immediately come to mind. And speaking of big lies, do we really want to get into some of the things our government said about North Vietnamese troop strengths just before Tet?

 

As Ronald Reagan said, trust but verify.

 

Reading back through this I realize I have come on pretty strong and possibly a little too personal. If I did I apologize. I have read enough of your postings to build a strong respect for you and the way you seem to live your life. But I get nervous when people in a position of trust start talking about using our hard earned rights as a doormat.

[Mikelly]

Fair enough...

 

As for the "Doormat" remark... I said "My rights"... Not anyone elses... Do with yours as you see fit. This country is great in the fact that I can be put in harms way to fight for the stars and stripes that so many would set flame to and burn... So it is also my right to say "Hey, do what you have to do, and infrenge upon my rights if it is in the name of national safety!"

 

I'll offer this up to every person on the board... Tell me someone in YOUR FAMILY, Or someone you PERSONALLY KNOW who'se been unlawfully detained, and whose rights have been violated by the patriot act or patriot 2.

 

Pop, I use my experience with my job, and the data I have access to because I have it. It is no different then someone holding knowledge of a cam selection, or certain engine combo. Members here have been to my home, seen the plaques, medals, and other related government certificates for promotion, and such... Don't know how else to verify what I do for a living. Don't think I need to. Furthermore, I don't care. It is up to everyone to make their own assumptions. My point is that I have a view that most don't get a chance to see from. Getting the level of access to data I have takes jumping through many many hoops constantly, and for life. I chose that path and am very proud of it. And I use that knowledge and access to that data to my advantage in making my comments.

 

Again, I make no apologies. Less than 2% of the national population are offered the chance to apply for the CIA or other agencies where this level of clearance are required to work. My pride in that selection, and the ability to pass through the lengthy process, shines through... If that offends some, I offer no apology either. It is what it is, and I'm a very proud irishman.

 

As for the comments I made about WMD... They were there... I know that based on what was reported by those on the ground before we went into Iraq this last time... They are finding out that most of them were detroyed in the months and weeks leading up to this latest war. However, Why wouldn't Saddam comply with the UN resolutions? He continued to act as though there was something to hide, and human intelligence on the ground was telling us exactl what I stated here all those months ago. Bottom line is Clinton wouldn't go back into Iraq, even though there was just cause for over 8 years. So we went in to verify... Who knows where they are. There is evidence that lots of chemicals were dumped in the country side and strong suspicion that some of the evidence was trucked into Syria. We'll probably never really now the full story on what happened to his stock piles, so I'll take all the shit you want to hand over for it... I've got broad shoulders, so just pile on!

 

As you so quickly point out, this is not an exact science and the world would be perfect, but for man kind. We do make mistakes, or we would be treading water via the soles of our feet.

 

Mike

[denny411]

Just a thought, if I had...

1)An area the size of California

 

2)Access to whatever equipement and manpower I need

 

3)No Police force(inspectors) watching for 8 years

 

I have no doubt that I could hide AT LEAST 100 semi truck loads of ANYTHING where it could never be found.

[JMortensen]

I'll offer this up to every person on the board... Tell me someone in YOUR FAMILY, Or someone you PERSONALLY KNOW who'se been unlawfully detained, and whose rights have been violated by the patriot act or patriot 2.

 

I would venture a guess to say that my right to not privacy but "security in my effects" if that pleases JohnC has most likely been violated. The most irritating thing to me is that I will never know for sure, unless they come and arrest me. If you read this page: http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/Terrorism/20011031_eff_usa_patriot_analysis.html

you can see that there is a distinct possibility that since I have spent the last day or so searching for "terrorism, terrorist organizations, patriot act, nazi, concentration camp, jew, islam" etc, etc, that I have probably been surveilled.

 

Besides the question you ask is very reminiscent of this quote:

"When the Nazis came and arrested all of the Jewish Rabbis, we said nothing. When they came to arrest all of the Roman Catholic Priests, we said nothing. When they came to arrest all of us (the Protestant Clergy), there was no one left to say anything." -Dietrich Bonhoeffer

 

It is not wise IMO to wait until the govt is on YOUR doorstep to start protesting. Here in Seattle we've had wackos protesting on street corners for OVER A YEAR now about terrorism and the war in Iraq and even Afghanistan. While I don't miss an opportunity to flip them off as I drive by, I think that they are doing the right thing as citizens of a democratic country, so I always smile while I give them the finger.

 

I'm glad to hear that your govt job gives you a feeling of security or a feeling that we're doing the right thing to protect our citizens from terrorists. I don't doubt the intentions of the current administration at all. I think they have a tough job to do, and they are doing the best they can, which has been IMO a much preferable response to the "stick your head in the sand and pray the UN can take care of it all" stance of our European friends and quite a few of our own. There was a lot of criticism of people who were concerned about the war, and they were called unpatriotic and told to stand behind the president, because he's "our Commander-in-Chief". No, he's not. He's the MILITARY'S Commander-in-Chief. Not mine. So it's up to the rest of us who aren't supposed to blindly follow to analyze what he's doing, and when something happens that we don't like, we have a responsibility to speak up.

 

I saw an interview with a FBI agent that said almost exactly what denny411 said BTW. I think his quote was "If you told me that you were going to come into my house and get my wallet in 6 months, and it was totally unavoidable, I'd have that wallet so well hidden you'd NEVER find it."

 

Jon

[JMortensen]

OK, I think I'm done after this, unless something really interesting is said, but here goes something which I think is REALLY germaine to this discussion. I just got off the phone with a friend who is really anti-Patriot act and works in the IT field. His had 4 points to make:

 

1. The packet sniffing method used by Carnivore can be used to manipulate the information sent. If the FBI/CIA whoever can look at the packets you send to determine if there is "inappropriate" content, then they can obviously view photos or look for those hidden watermarks that might contain hidden messages. If they can view these files, it would not be hard to ADD watermarks or CHANGE the photos using Photoshop or the Gimp or some such software, then this could be used as "proof" that someone was a terrorist, or a child pornographer, etc. If you are an enemy of the state, this COULD be used against you. Not saying it's likely, just possible.

 

2. We don't really know what we're downloading. If you've ever gone to a webpage and seen it loading even though it looked as though the page was done, there is a distinct possibility that there were hidden pictures or text that you were downloading. A simple way of getting illegal crap onto someone's computer is to put an illegal photo or terrorist message on a webpage in the form of a jpeg that is shown by the website as a 1 pixel by 1 pixel jpeg. The viewer would never see this, and would have no idea that they had encountered this contraband, but it would be residing in their internet cache. If a person was then under suspicion by the govt, and the govt was to look at their hard drive there might be hundreds of these pictures there, even though the person had no knowledge.

 

3. If you've ever gotten a spam email and had a pic of a woman and a donkey or any other illegal crap on it, this too could be used against you. Even though you may have had no intention to view such things, and may have immediately deleted them, all you have done is delete the NAME of the file, and allowed that disk space to be written over. If it is not written over before some govt agency comes and confiscates your computer, then guess what... you've got contraband on your computer.

 

4. A cracker or group of crackers (not white guys, but the IT correct term for "bad hacker") could develop the same technology and use it to do any of the above. I would think that this would be pretty good motivation for a terrorist organization. What better way to hide than to send out a flood of false incriminating evidence to confuse the govt.

 

In his words, the govt doesn't fully understand the technology they are using with these methods of checking for wrongdoing, so they leave themselves open to the abuse of the technology.

 

Jon

[Guest BigWhyteDude]

So Mikelly what is your security clearance , or is that classified

[Moridin]

Fair enough...

I'll offer this up to every person on the board... Tell me someone in YOUR FAMILY' date=' Or someone you PERSONALLY KNOW who'se been unlawfully detained, and whose rights have been violated by the patriot act or patriot

Mike[/quote']

 

There was a member on here for a short period of time that had been unlawfully detained on three seperate occasions. He was of Palistinian descent and only 19. He was born an American citizen and stated that he did nothing other than have family members in Saudi Arabia and Palistine. Right now, I believe he is staying in the Saudi area with family and/or friends. He is also contemplating whether or not to ever come back to the states, because of all the b.s. he put up with here. I still talk to him every once and awhile online, but he only gets internet access at a relatives home, which is an hour or so away from where he lives.

 

There was also a member of the Green part who was unlawfully detained at an airport, because he was on the no-fly list for being an aid to Al-Queda. It wasn't just him though, it was basically any major member of the party. Funny how such a pro-peace group of people are somehow linked to a major terror organization. A county sheriff and FBI agent detained him several times, causing him to miss his original flight (for which he payed $500 for) and was made to pay same day air fair for a later one (A little over $2200). The article in the magazine quotes him as saying he was going to an art show in Russia. I understand that flying is privately owned, but public employees held him at the airport for roughly 32 hours and he was never allowed on a flight (for which he was never refunded to my understanding).

 

Fortunately, and unfortunately I don't know any more people at this moment in time. I bet that there are a bunch more at the junior college I go to, because many immigrants go through the j.c. to get to UC Berkeley

 

I am very happy to know that you do take your job very seriously and keep a level head. I'm sure you have access to things the public will probably never see. It only bugs me when the government can search some property or information of mine without having to go to a judge for a warrant. That's my personal right as it says in the Constitution and I won't give it up without a fight.

[Guest Nic-Rebel450CA]

I have been unlawfully detained, or I suppose I could say that if I wanted to complain. It wasnt from the patriot act, it was well before any of that ever came about. But you know what? I refuse to complain about it. The very thought that I was being detained to possibly preserve someone else's safety is enough to justify it. (I was held by the police because I vaguely matched a discription of a suspect "in the area"). I cant say that I speak for anyone who has been detained, or that none of them can complain, but it's a give and take situation. You cant complain because the authorities dont do enough to protect us, and then complain when they do. As long as the government doesnt do anything to prevent me from protecting myself, they are welcome to do everything they can to help protect me. I'll be damned if I am going to complain because the government is doing something that neither endangers me, or harms me in the process of protecting others.

[Mikelly]

Moridin, As I stated in the qoute you posted "Your family, or someone you know personally"

 

Bigwhytedude, I've got a top Secret SCI clearance with special background investigation, plus a few accesses that are "read on" types of access for short term programs. TS SCI With SBI is the minimum needed for working at CIA and a few other agencies... This information is all accessable on their homepage, as well as their 17 page "Pre-application".

 

I'm pretty much done with this thread... You can lead a horse....

 

Mike

[Guest Phil1934]

The Patriot Act has diminished our safety, not from terrorists, but from other governments. Brazil is now fingerprinting and photographing Americans since we are doing that to them. Would you like to travel to countries less than than hospitable to the U.S. if they adopted our policy of imprisonment and torture without representation or even notification of who is held? We have become enemies of Amnesty International and the Red Cross. Earlier inconveniences of being pulled over because "You crossed the line back there" or some other lame excuse as you go through a small town late at night followed by "Do you mind if I look in your trunk? You shouldn't mind if you have nothing to hide." Yes. I do mind. Drug laws allow police to confiscate property without charging the owner or giving him a day in court. Texas officials are living high on the hog confiscating money from Mexicans going home. These are nothing compared to Federal rights intrusions. Recent public smears of individuals suspected of spreading anthrax or selling nuclear secrets. No evidence, so they throw the names to the press and then deny they did. Consider the lab scientist or the Chinese gentleman working at Oak Ridge. Or the Iraq representative whose wife was outed as a CIA agent after he rebutted the African uranium story. These people make McCarthy look like a saint. Oh, and guns don't kill people, bullets do. Guns just make bullets go really, really fast.

[denny411]

One of the great things about living in the U.S. is that EVERYTHING I need is right here. I have no need or desire to travel to other countries right now.

 

That may change later after my family and I have seen all that this country has to offer, but for now I will spend my money and time right here.

 

As far a detainment goes, I would MUCH rather see someone(including myself) detained for a few hours to be checked out, than to have another person die at the hands of a terrorist.

 

I am very scepticle about reports of people being detained, but IF someone is detained by airport security or some other public official they should be able to use their original ticket without any problems. HELL I would even suppply their meals.

 

Obviously there are going to be abusive and overzealous screeners,but you can`t scrap the whole system because of a few bad apples. I`ve seen many cases of police officers abusing their powers, but I doubt any reasonable person would suggest disbanning them.

 

Any way you look at it this is still the most free country in the world, and I can`t think of anywhere I would rather live.(Despite what Alec Baldwin and Johnny Depp think)

[Guest Phil1934]

As far a detainment goes' date=' I would MUCH rather see someone(including myself) detained for a few hours to be checked out:[/quote']

But how would you feel to be held indefinitely without any outside access, including legal defense? It's happening now to American citizens. The current federal policies are no less ridiculous than the zero tolerance school policies that suspend a second grader for using his finger as an imaginary gun, But I guess that's OK if it stops one second grader from being imaginarily shot. Every major catastrophe is played upon to gather a little more power in government hands. 9/11 is being played to the hilt with color coded alert status, plastic sheeting and duct tape, etc.

[denny411]

I am by no means an alarmist, and The only steps I have personally taken to help make myself and my family more secure is to be more observant.

 

I don`t own a gas mask, I don`thave my house wrapped in plastic, and I haven`t really changed my routine since 9/11.

 

You may not think that the detainees are being held for just cause,BUT just maybe they are being held because of information found in their background checks.

 

My brother had an iraqi neighbor that was arrested before 9/11 for having a ficticious hazmat cdl. HHrrrmm... I wonder where he is now?

[Moridin]

The minute you are in fear, because of terrorism, then the terrorists have won. To give up rights so readily, thinking they are lost for the sake of security, then we've lost the war already.

 

Mike, when I mentioned the guy on this board, I actually knew him outside of this internet community. Not a close friend though, so it's probably not nearly as meaningful.