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Which V8 and why?


Guest nsadhal

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Guest nsadhal

So, I've been dreaming of a V8 240Z swap for a long time, but I don't know the pros and cons of the options available to me. I did a search a few times and turned up nothing on the subject. I've searched Google as well and found nothing. So I ask you, what are the benefits of using an SBC over a Ford engine? Ford over Chevy? 327 vs 350 vs 400? 302 vs 351? What about 383 and 302 SBCs? I'm looking for something that would be cheap to start with but have plenty of potential so i can slowly build it up

I'm posting this is the Chevy V8 tech board because that seems to get more views... but if there's a more appropriate place for this question, please point me to it.

 

Thanks!

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Guest nsadhal

Yeah, I'm aware of the kit and manual sold by JTR... there are a few other people who sell kits and stuff for the SBC... but that doesn't necessarily mean the SBC is a better swap does it?

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Every motor has its good and bad points. Chevy's are cheaper and have a good aftermarket. Fords are lighter and the distributor is in the back so the engine can be placed farther back. I am doing a LT1 swap because I had the engine already when I decided to make the swap. If I didn't have the engine already I would be tempted to use a 4.6 from a Lincoln Mark8. It is dual overhead cam and all aluminum. You can often buy the Lincoln at a very reasonable price to use as a donor. If price was less of a concern I would use a LS1 or a Northstar.

 

The choice is yours and its part of the fun. Do you want it easy, fast, different, or what it is all up to you.

 

One thing about my LT1 swap is there are several out there on this site which makes me think it is almost boring and redundant.

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theres little doubt that the sbc is the engine with the easyest install and most parts support, yet thats not the only choice,

 

If I build another (Z) Im more than likely going to try and use a 500 caddy engine, and turbo 400 trans

WHY?

well the advantages are

massive torque,

low cost,

distributor front mounted to allow more rear weight distrabition

low engine weight and size thats just slightly larger than a sbc

 

http://www.team.net/sol/tech/engine.html

 

 

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/7062/engine.html

 

http://www.remanufactured-engines.com/page11.htm

 

http://www.500cid.com/mts/info.htm

 

careful parts selection should allow a 400hp/500ft lb engine for well under $3500

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An SBC based swap is the cheapest, easiest and most straight forward.

 

Most Ford V8 engines have the distributor in the front but look underneath! The oil sump is in the front too and this interferes with the front cross member (which is why you see so many '32 Ford street rods with a small block Chevy in them)! There is a "double hump" oil pan available but it only partially solves the problem. Also, if you are going to run a manual trans, Ford has never made a hydraulic clutch setup so you will have to use one of those hydraulic throw-out bearings.

 

Chevrolet offers you the choice of Corvette (which I think is better) or Camaro hydraulic clutch systems.

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Let's remember one thing though - done right - these swaps are measured in 1,000's of dollars, not 100's. Take your time - do lot's of research and then develop a plan and stick to it. Most folks don't have the patience but it will pay off in reduced do-overs and cost.

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If this is your first motor swap and you don't have a lot of experience or the tools for fabbing brackets, mounts, headers, ect. than the sbc with one of the available kits is the path for you. The jtr kit is well engineered and cheap IMHO. Follow the book and post questions here when you run into snags and it will be enough of a challenge for you.

 

nsadhal, you live in Berkeley, you need to come to the Rio Vista show in April. It's only about an hour away from you and you can see several V8 Z's, Chevy, Ford, carborated and EFI. Get a close up look and talk to the builders.

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Guest nsadhal

Hmm.. thanks for the info guys...

 

If I do undertake this, it won't be my first motor swap... I have swapped a b18b into an '89 Honda CRX... it was pretty much a bolt in affair aside from using HASport mounts designed exactly for the swap, getting the shift linkage shortened, and hacking up the wiring harness. I'm not too afraid of fabbing stuff, I will definitely get the JTR book no matter what engine I use (even though it's aimed at the SBC).

 

I'm kind of looking for more details on why I would choose one engine over the other? So far all I gather is that Fords may be a better fit because of the distributor, but the front cross member can be a problem. Chevys are more common and bolt on kits are available... but what about the power characteristics? Is there any reason to use a 350 instead of a 400? Is any engine much cheaper than all the rest? I'm aware of some of the pros/cons of EFI vs. Carbs, so we don't need to open up that can of worms. =)

 

Let's say... for the sake of argument, that I can choose from any of the following SBCs, all carb'd: 302, 327, 350, 383, and 400. Why would you choose one over the other? I can see that the 302 might be the most fuel efficient, while the 400 might be the easiest to extract power from... but beyond that. Which one do you think is better suited to a 240Z? Why? Does the choice change if they are all using EFI instead? How much value is there in putting a nicely built engine into a 30 year old chassis? I'm just asking for opinions...

 

Thanks guys.

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Guest Nic-Rebel450CA
I'm just asking for opinions...

 

Sounds like you need to figure out how to form your own opinion. Everyone that has either done the swap, or started planning the swap, has their own opinions on what engine is best, or at least best for them.

 

Figure out what you want out of a Z, and find an engine that will get you there. If you want tons of torque and you want to make a killer drag racer, you wont use the same engine as you would for an awesome auto-cross racer.

 

Everyone can provide you with opinions, but no one can answer your question. You have to figure out what is best for you.

 

Good luck, and start thinking about what YOU want. :wink:

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nsadhal, I also had a 1989 CRX that I put in a B18a into it. You can not compare this swap with the Datsun v8 swap. All of the wiring from the d16 motor just bolts onto the new b18a/b motor shorten the shifter and bolt it in. The Honda's are very easy swaps, The V8 swap can be done just remember that it will take you alot more time and $$ than the Honda's. If I was you I would go with the LT1 with the JTR mounts, this should take you about 3-8 months for your 1st time doing this kind of swap. Goodluck

 

Mike

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Guest nsadhal
Sounds like you need to figure out how to form your own opinion.

Haha, I didn't mean for it to come across that way. I think having an uninformed opinion is worse than no opinion at all. Other people's opinions, while to be taken with a grain of salt, can be useful if you get a good number of them. If you understand why a person would believe what they do, that's even better.

 

Nic-Rebel450CA:

I think you hit the nail on the head... except the problem is where can I find this information? Where can I find information on which engine would be a killer drag racer and which engine would make an awesome auto-crosser? Where can I find some kind of comparison where somebody says "If you're looking to build a revvy engine, this would be a good starting point. If you're looking to build something with massive torque, this would be a good engine to start with." It would seem that the worst thing would be to have completed a swap and then found the engine characteristics to be nothing like what I had hoped.

 

mas28O:

That's funny, because our wiring didn't just slip right in. The ECU connectors had to be rewired and we had to get connectors off an Integra to make it all work. If one were using a carb'd V8, this is a non issue, right?

 

If I was you I would go with the LT1 with the JTR mounts,

But whyyyy? Why the LT1? I mean I'm definitely leaning in that direction already, but I don't have any really good reason to.

 

So is there some kind of reference or comparison?

Should I just read one of those books on building SBCs? There seem to be quite a few of those around? Would that answer all these questions?

I have a vague idea of what kind of characteristics I'm looking for.

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But whyyyy? Why the LT1?

 

He had an LT1 and just went to an LS1. The motor mounts for the LT1 will work with the JTR mounts while the LS1 won't. But it is fuel injected and will give better performance (not per $ but overall) while giving great driveability and gas mileage. Those who have done it say wiring isn't as hard as it may seem. You'll certainly get plenty of support from members here although carb is a little easier and it's definitely cheaper. To me, if it was gonna be a daily driver I'd go LT1, if weekend warrior probably carb to avoid the initial expense.

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This should have already been asked, what do you plan to do with the car and what is your budget?

 

The LT1 is a nice choice because is it a bolt-in swap, has all the advantages of EFI, is a relaxed street motor for daily driving, and is a strong motor right out of the box but with the potential for gobs more power.

 

A carb motor will be cheaper and easier. It can be built for big hp numbers but it wont have the same level of refineness at those numbers as an EFI motor.

 

The LS1 is a step above. Lighter, stronger, silky smooth with even more potential. But this one will be the biggest challenge and cost.

 

As far as what displacement that's simple. Cubes = power. The whole argument that a smaller displacement motor will rev up faster has had a lot of holes shot through it. Any motor can be built to rev if you throw enough money at it.

 

Between the LT1 and the LS1 the Ford swap has lost a lot of it's allure. While it's true that the Ford is lighter, a complete f-body (aluminum heads) LT1 is not that much heavier and has the distributor in the front out of the way of the hood latch, like the sbf. The Ford has fitment challenges as well, namely the pan that has been mentioned, and the drivers side header to steering shaft clearance.

 

About weight gain. Even worst case senario we are not talking about making a sports car into a truck. Because, in the jtr position, the motor sits lower and farther back in the car. The difference adds up to having an average size person sitting in the passinger seat.

 

Whata ya wanna do? Whata ya wanna spend?

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Guest nsadhal

Thanks Dan and JKDGabe! This is the kind of info I was looking for.

As far as what I want to do and how much my budget is, that's still open. I'm in the very very early planning stages. I'm in no hurry, so I figure I'll try to plan as much as I can. And then plan my planning.

 

After reading Nic-Rebel450CA's posts about building a 302 and what engine to choose, I'm also lead to believe that sacrificing cubes for an oversquare cylinder is misguided.

 

So as far as what I want to do with the car: let's say daily driver that might make it to a few track days. My budget is on the low side, say, $8000, which is I know is a bit limiting. From what I've read so far on this forum and in a few other places, it sounds like you guys are right. An LT1/JTR swap is probably the one for me. I assume you guys are talking about the gen2 LT1 right? How cheaply can an LT1 with a 5 spd overdrive transmission be had? I've seen wildly differeing prices and I'm not sure if they're all the same engine or not.

 

by the way, as an aside, when was the last time the JTR manual was updated?

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Guest Nic-Rebel450CA

After reading Nic-Rebel450CA's posts about building a 302 and what engine to choose' date=' I'm also lead to believe that sacrificing cubes for an oversquare cylinder is misguided. [/quote']

 

Just FYI, the reason I am building a 302 has nothing to do with being oversquare. Oversquare means the bore is bigger than the stroke. All small-block engines are oversquare.

 

There are a number of reasons I want a 302, and none of them are "for extreme HP" or "for tons of torque".

 

Where can I find information on which engine would be a killer drag racer and which engine would make an awesome auto-crosser?

 

That information comes from having a concept of how engines work. If you don't know where torque comes from then you have got a lot of reading to do. I'd start with http://www.howstuffworks.com and look for engine info. That will get you started with the concept. Then go to a book store and pick up some books on engine building and design, etc.

 

Before you try to pick which engine and whether is should be Chevy, Ford, etc. you need to understand a single engine, and why it has the torque and HP characteristics that it has and what that means to you as far as how it will perform. Only after you understand how a single engine works will you be able to begin the hunt to find the engine that matches the characteristics you want.

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"I'm looking for something that would be cheap to start with but have plenty of potential so i can slowly build it up"

 

To me it sounds like you are asking for a 350 chevy. The cheapest sbc and a lot of potential.

 

FYI, 1400.00 can buy you a NEW (not rebuilt) 350 long block with 250hp from your local chevy dealer. Add a small cam, headers, intake, carb and make 300 hp+. A little head bowl blending and a thinner head gasket and 350 hp is obtainable. Add some performance heads and a bigger cam and the engine can make 400 hp. Go to chevyhiperformance.com and look in their old articles and see for yourself. I remember the above information from a project they did using a 250hp gm goodwench crate engine (350 Budget Build Up). I think it was around an eight part story where they bolted on different heads, cams, intakes, and even a blower. In the end, I think they made almost 500 hp!

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I'm a little late, as you have plenty of good answers already, but I'll throw in my $0.02.

 

If you can find a 400 SB for a reasonable price, use that. That engine is an incredible torque-producing machine and will produce all the umph that you can take. You won't need to invest in expensive heads or fancy cams to make a lot of power, although if you do you won't be able to wipe the grin off your face when you tear down the track. I've already bought and destroyed one of these when I was a teenager, so I won't let myself have another one. (I didn't destroy it too quickly, fortunately. I got plenty of thrills out of it)

 

Second choice is the LT1. I think it's the best choice because of the aluminum heads on all the F-body engines. Good weight savings, good power. If I was going with an Iron-head engine, I'd probably go with a TBI 350, just cause they are dirt cheap. I like F.I. as you can tell. (my reason for preferring the TBI 350 to the iron head LT1 is AC- works with the TBI, pretty expensive to get to work with the LT1- not a concern for everyone. )

 

Personally I think putting a carb on a motor that came with FI is like putting a v6 into a vette. Sure, the power can be had, but it's just so wrong! This opinion is not shared by everyone here, but I stand by it. FI just runs great.

 

So the right motor is the one you can find, that's priced right, that you like. Give me the money and I'd build a stealth-rammed 400 SB with aluminum heads. But since it's my own money my plan is a stock LT1 with a T5.

 

Oh yeah, There is the 6-speed vs 5 speed question. I've asked this one myself at least once. The general consensus is:

 

6 speed T56- great tranny, very strong, very nice shifting, all around great. Heavy, Expensive and won't drive the factory speedo. Has a vehicle speeed sensor and will work with LT1.

 

5 speed t5- can take a strong stock or slightly modded motor, can be built to take a lot more abuse for the price of a used T56. Less great of a tranny but still works very well, far cheaper, will drive the stock speedo, but requires a vehicle speed sensor adapter to work with the LT1. lower weight.

 

Automatic: Drag racers love them. I think they are boring to drive. In their defense they are cheaper, very reliable, easier to install, plentiful, and probably shift much better than I do.

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nsadhal, just an observation, but you're approaching this project with a Honda attitude (btw, you guys are so spoiled with your lego-like swapability, haha.)

 

You're gonna have to do a bit of research on the way an SBC or Ford are put together, its not quite the same as saying "a B18C5 makes 195HP and costs $3500 and a B16A1 makes 160HP and costs $1500, which is better?" An SBC for example could make anywhere from 140HP to 1200+, it depends on how its built, and I don't mean somthing as simple as whether or not he has Skunk2 cams and bolt ons, but truely hardcore shit, like matching carbs/intakes/cams/headwork/etc. For that reason, I'd say go with an LT1, they've come in Camaros/Firebirds since 93 and I think in 'Vettes since 92, the T56 6-speed is a nice and stout tranny if you upgrade a few little parts and they're good on gas if you don't wring them out on every shift. If you shop around, you can pick one up pretty cheap too. If you don't like 265+ stock HP and gobs of torque, there is a huge aftermarket.

 

Good luck dude.

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