Now I've little choice but to drive it, loose crank or no

[JMortensen]

I was able to get a stock oilpan out without lifting the motor. To get my AZC pan in I had to jack up the motor on one side about an inch.

[Guest bastaad525]

I dunno... Tim and I removed my oil pan not so long ago... definately didn't look like it coulda came out w/o jacking it up.

[JMortensen]

That's because yours is slightly different and f'ed up and what is normal doesn't work on your car.

[Guest bastaad525]

That's because yours is slightly different and f'ed up and what is normal doesn't work on your car.

 

 

Not sure whether that line should make me laugh or cry!

[Guest bastaad525]

Got my car back today with the new clutch setup. Basically I went back to a stock clutch disk, and a heavy duty Daikin pressure plate, from an ACT six puck metallic disk and plate. WHEW oh my lord I had forgotten what a stock clutch feels like!!! I do still wonder if he truly gave me a 'heavy duty' pressure plate... the pedal pressure is just sooooo soft now I have my doubts. His english was kind of bad... I asked him the same question about 10 different ways. It was the plate he was going to give me as a set with the 6 puck metallic Daikin clutch. He says it's the heavy duty pressure plate for a Nissan truck. I hope it's gonna hold....

 

I didn't really get to get on it too much on the way home, a couple times in first and second, and I didn't see any slippage... so I hope that means it's gonna be okay. Otherwise I have to say I like it. It feels soooo much more smooth, no more chatter of course... it's almost hard to tell when the clutch is even grabbing at first. Easier to leave the line in a hurry it seems. The downside is they weren't able to reuse my lightened stock flywheel afterall... it had been shaved down too much already and was too thin. Throttle response and the whole car definately feel a bit slower with the heavier stock flywheel. The motor revs up AND down noticeably slower.

 

Jmortensen - thank you for the suggestion. I can tell by the feel that this will definately put less wear and tear on my entire drivetrain. I hope you're right that it will also slow down the wear on my crank bearings to keep that play from getting much worse. I'm going to refrain from driving the car very much either way... kinda sux as I've been wanting to fix the leaky tranny for so long... now I can actually enjoy driving without the constant smell of burning gear oil... and a much more pleasant clutch to boot!! Hopefully using the Mobil 1 in the motor will help slow down the wear even further. But again... thanks... as long as slippage isn't a problem, I'm definately liking this clutch setup better than I would have liked another 6 puck setup.

 

Okay... I know I"m being paranoid, but humor me. IF this clutch/pp setup were going to slip, when/where would I notice it? As I said I really only got to do a couple WOT, 1st and 2nd gear pulls up to 5000-5500rpm... which is about as high as I rev anyways. So if it were going to slip... would I notice it in higher gears or lower? Lower RPMS when the turbo first kicks in, or higher RPM? Going up a hill?

 

And one other question... I know the ACT clutches last a LONNNNNG time... again I put about 60k miles on mine easy... and though it had worn quite a bit into the flywheel and pressure plate, the disk itself have very little wear. How long do typical stock clutches last? I've never had one long enough to wear out and need replacing. I know it depends on the driver, but what's a good average lifespan? How will I know it's worn out?

 

And lastly... the guy at the shop wasn't sure (????) so I'll ask you guys... do stock-type clutches need to be broken in? What exactly is the breakin procedure?

[JMortensen]

I'd take it easy on the clutch for a couple hundred miles.

 

The pp being easy to push thing... I made mention of that on another clutch post but I guess you missed it. I have the ACT pp with a stock disk. My clutch is not very stiff at all, very slightly noticeable that it is not a stock pp to me, but if you didn't know Z's you would think it was all stock. I think you had either no grease on the shaft where the throwout bg rides, or maybe someone put white grease on there and it coagulated and made everything sticky. My friend's Z was like that and I pulled it out, replaced the disk and lubed everything with some high temp grease and it was an AMAZING difference in pedal effort.

 

I was thinking back to the last car that I saw with worn thrust bgs. It was a 200SXT, and the car had a Centerforce DF disk. The puck side had worn the crap outta the flywheel, and it was not even at all. So lets say that it had a groove all the way around the flywheel, but it was 1/8" deep on one side and 1/16" deep on the other. When you let out the clutch, it chattered VIOLENTLY. While it is doing this, the crank is getting shaken fore to aft HARD. And that's what took out the thrust bgs.

 

Once you've put some miles on the clutch, you can check for slippage as follows. Going maybe 30, put the car in 4th, rev to 5000 rpm, and side step the clutch. That will tell you right away whether that clutch is going to slip.

 

If you've really got the HD pp and the stock disk, I don't think you're putting down enough power to make it slip. The price on that pp was AWFULLY cheap though. Makes me wonder...

 

Glad to hear you're back in action, now take Tim up on his offer to help and get some main bgs in the bottom end. And pull the motor if you can. Not very hard to pull it, and it will make the whole job so much easier!

 

Jon

[Guest bastaad525]

yeah the PP was $85. I asked him about that... and I asked well why would a heavy duty pressure plate be so cheap? He said usually they are $120 or so, but it's cheaper if I get it as a set... ?? I wonder as well.

 

I took the car to work last night and got on it a few more times, no sign of slippage. Okay call me a newb, but what exactly is 'sidestepping the clutch'?

 

One thing I notice is that the clutch is making a light whistling sound as I let it out... I called the shop back and he said this is normal for a new clutch and should go away after a while.

 

The real test will be whenever I finally do get my I/C installed and up the boost to 12-13psi.. shooting for 240-250hp at the wheels... I'll be shocked if it holds it then. But that's so far off now with all this other crap happening that I"m sure I'll be needing a new clutch by then anyways !

 

man the car is much more enjoyable to drive now... I wish I had lightened the flywheel again though. Just sux that every time I really feel like it's dialed in just about right, something comes up that makes me afraid to drive it.

 

Well... if Tim is gonna help me out then at least all is not lost. But dear god PLEASE let this be the last major thing to go wrong... I just really wonder... if I had never found this out, how long would I have kept driving it that way and never known there was a problem.

[JMortensen]

what exactly is 'sidestepping the clutch'?

 

Push in clutch, move foot to the side. Another way of saying drop the clutch.

[Tony D]

There are several things you can do to save the life of your thrust bearing:

 

#1) NEVER start the car in gear with the clutch depressed!!!!!!!

Think about it: you have FULL thrust load on a non-lubricated bearing surface, so grind grind grind it goes until oil pressure comes up. I start the car out of gear with no clutch. Yes, I disconnected the "idiot switch"---my 62 VW didn;t have such electronic gimmickery on it, and I have yet to run it through the front of the garage...

 

#2) When at a light, or on a hill, do NOT sit there withthe clutch depressed. My teacher was "in gear, or out, but not both" kinda guy. Basically, USE YOUR BRAKES. That is waht they are for. The less time the clutch pedal is depressed, the less wear you will have.

 

#3) if you have good synchros, alight flywheel, and a ginger foot, you can go up and down the gears with no clutch depression whatsoever. Failing thestones to master that technique, you can go into the next gear with some of the smae techniques, but with far less than a full clutch release. Conserve your thrust bearing by not fully loading it.

 

Basically, anything that keeps your foot off the clutch, it good.

 

As for your cracked pilot bearing, the solid disc clutch can do that from the chattering, but this goes back to the clutch being "in or out" and not even TRYING to slip it.

 

Good Luck. Anybody who ever owned a Corvair or VW with a snapped clutch cable will tell you living without a clutch is difficult only in first gear!

[Guest bastaad525]

There are several things you can do to save the life of your thrust bearing:

 

#1) NEVER start the car in gear with the clutch depressed!!!!!!!

Think about it: you have FULL thrust load on a non-lubricated bearing surface' date=' so grind grind grind it goes until oil pressure comes up. I start the car out of gear with no clutch. Yes, I disconnected the "idiot switch"---my 62 VW didn;t have such electronic gimmickery on it, and I have yet to run it through the front of the garage...

 

#2) When at a light, or on a hill, do NOT sit there withthe clutch depressed. My teacher was "in gear, or out, but not both" kinda guy. Basically, USE YOUR BRAKES. That is waht they are for. The less time the clutch pedal is depressed, the less wear you will have.

 

#3) if you have good synchros, alight flywheel, and a ginger foot, you can go up and down the gears with no clutch depression whatsoever. Failing thestones to master that technique, you can go into the next gear with some of the smae techniques, but with far less than a full clutch release. Conserve your thrust bearing by not fully loading it.

 

Basically, anything that keeps your foot off the clutch, it good.

 

As for your cracked pilot bearing, the solid disc clutch can do that from the chattering, but this goes back to the clutch being "in or out" and not even TRYING to slip it.

 

Good Luck. Anybody who ever owned a Corvair or VW with a snapped clutch cable will tell you living without a clutch is difficult only in first gear![/quote']

 

 

Luckily I've been following this advice before I knew it was advice!! I never hold in the clutch pedal when I start the car. I never hold in the clutch pedal at a light. And I do sometimes shift w/o clutching just for fun. I didn't realize that having my lightened flywheel was making that any easier kinda sux now that I'm back to having a stock flywheel. I'll do it if I'm cruising down an empty street... trying to train myself to get better at revmatching. I also set my clutch pedal so that I can do quick shifts w/o pushing the clutch all the way in... just enough so that it BARELY releases. As far as the ACT cracking my pilot bearing... well actually I had gotten really good and driving with the ACT disc w/o really getting any chatter. Of course there would be those times I wasn't paying attention, or that I was trying to launch hard, that I might get some, but mostly I was so used to it you would never know sitting in the passenger seat that anything was different. I just wish someone had warned me when I bought that thing just how much harm it could really do to everything... a worn flywheel is one thing but damn that thing was just tearing EVERYTHIGN up.

 

Stupid question here... if my crank is moving back and forth a millimeter, or close to it, does that mean my thrust bearing is 'gone' or is it just worn a bit?

 

Jmortensen - really appreciate all the back-and-forthing you've been doing with me on this... helping me retain some peace of mind. Well I wont be putting many miles on the clutch now, at least until I get this crank thing taken care of, but as soon as I feel it's 'broken in' (what's a good amount of mileage to shoot for?) I'll try your test to see if it slips. I think I wont care much if it does under those circumstances (dropping the clutch at 5000rpm is pretty harsh!!) as long as during my kind of normal driving (taking off from every light... dropping into 4th or 3rd on the freeway to pass trucks/SUV's) it holds. Will it get better or worse at holding as time goes by?

[JMortensen]

Clutches need to bed in like brakes. Once they're bedded in, then you can abuse them, and that's when they'll work the best.

 

I'd wait 500 miles before doing the clutch test. One time isn't going to hurt anything, but you will be lugging your engine pretty good at that speed. When you do it the engine should go from 5000 to 800 or whatever rpm it's going to be right away. If the clutch can't hold the power than it might actually increase rpms when you do this, or it might just slow down a little bit. Don't burn the crap out of it testing, just do it and see what happens then push the clutch back in and put it in a reasonable gear and continue on your way.

 

Good thing about this is that you can figure out if the clutch will hold, then if you need to change it you can do that at Tim's... right Tim???

 

As far as the back and forth goes, I've been really stuck myself a number of times, and I'm just returning the favor that was done for me...

 

Jon

[Tim240z]

 

Good thing about this is that you can figure out if the clutch will hold' date=' then if you need to change it you can do that at Tim's... right Tim???

 

 

Jon[/quote']

 

Yeah...clutches are easy to change when the engine is out....silly old inliners....

[Guest bastaad525]

What's the average lifespan for a mildly abused stock clutch disc? Just looking for a ballpark figure, I know it will vary a lot by person and style of driving. Don't they only usually last like 30,000 or something like that?And what is the first sign they are going out? Normally I'd say I wouldn't really be abusing it at all, but it's hard to lauch a turbo fast w/o slipping the hell out of the clutch....

 

Man I'm really hating not being able to drive the damn car again Its nice not being flooded with the smell of burning gear oil from the tranny leaking onto the exhaust anymore, oh and though we never figured out what was causing it to begin with, that strange rattle/buzz at 1500rpm is gone as well.

[Guest bastaad525]

Well, my wifes other car has started having serious problems, which we don't have the cash to fix at the moment. So I gotta give the Geo back to her... she can't drive stick so the Z is out... besides she's scared of it and wouldn't drive it anyways. Sucks because she works very closeby, like 6 mi. away, whereas I'm more like 22 mi, and our schedules wont allow us to share the car, and because we both work graveyard, bus options are limited as well. Kinda puts me in a bad spot... I wont even have some free time to try to replace the bearings for at least two weeks, but i dont really have much choice but to drive the Z in the meantime. Please let this thing hold up until I can get it fixed. I'm very worried that I'm gonna end up with a damaged crank....

 

 

Guys please, I asked this one already but got no answer... since I'm now pretty much forced to drive the car, can you guys give me some ideas of things I need to look out for that might hint that the problem is progressing or that it's near it's limit before it really breaks? I mean is it gonna start making noises or shaking like crazy or running like crap or what? I'm gonna take it easy on the car for sure, but I really can't avoid putting at least another few hundred miles on it... I tried moving the crank pully but really couldn't get any leverage on it so I can't check if it's getting any worse that way. Surely something will tell me if/when it's on it's last legs?

 

Not that I'd be able to do much about it anyways.... I just hope the softer clutch and synthetic oil will keep it going.

[johnc]

When my thrust bearing failed and let the crank walk to the point of destruction there was no real indication of a problem. The engine was running fine and the only reason I tore it down was a loss of comrpession in #s 2 and 5. Again, this was a race engine with 25,000 race miles on it. If you're careful with your clutch foot and the loads you place on the engine, you should be fine. If there's any damage its probably already been done and there's nothing you can do about it now. Then again, maybe everything's OK. The only way to know is to tear down the motor and it sounds like you're not in a position right now to do that.

[Guest bastaad525]

John - Sounds like my old camaro... man that thing moved back and forth easily a half inch... it did let on finally that there was a problem when it started vibrating noticeably and started killing torque converters.

 

Was the loss of compression related to the bad thrust bearing? Do you know how much back and forth movement the crank had at that point? How much crank movement would constitute "crank walk to the point of destruction"? If there's any damage I'm screwed either way

 

 

For what it's worth, when I pulled the head a few months ago to replace the blown gasket, there was no sign of scuffing or anything on the cylinder walls. And a couple months before that, when Tim helped me replace my oil pan gasket, neither of us noticed anything out of the ordinary either.

 

*sigh* fuggin car.... if it was still primered I'd kick the sh*t out of it right about now.

[twoeightythreez]

I always start the car in neutral with clutch out, sometimes I start it in 1st (man those gear red. starters are STRONG) when I was tuning the MS, it would sometimes stall out and be VERY hard to start again, and always when I was at the base gate with cars lined up behind me. Solution: use starter to move car until engine catches 20 feet later!

[dr_hunt]

Is there some odd reason your resurrecting a 3 year old thread?

[zguy36]

Pretty weird answering some old stuff, but thanks for doing it. I would have missed this thread otherwise and it had some good info. I am in the process of a rebuild due to a bad thrust bearing. I was running a SPEC pressure plate with a stock disk.

[Sumo]

Dr Hunt, he's on the USS Nimitz, didn't you know he can travel thru time? Didn't you see Kirk Douglas do it in the movie "Final Countdown?"

By the way i used to like that movie. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080736/