Heavy Z Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 This supermarket thing seems to angle the issue off in another direction, which is a totally different argument. These guys weren't doing this out of necessity as they don't look to be local africans just passing through. More doubtful is that they're hungry and driven by a craving for lion chops, ground lion, or lion filets. They did it for the high-five, the video, and the pelt. They did it so they can tell the story to their friends and impress women. Defending this type of behavior has nothing to do with meatpacking. What we have here is whether 'I kill you because I can' is cool or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 I don't personally see this as an issue of "where did the meat come from?†My issued with this sad display of what some humans call "sport" is that there appears to be nothing "necessary" about this hunt other than the advantage of emotional self-gratification. How nutritious can meat, from the top of the food chain, be? Examples in nature where one species preys on another simply for "sport" are extremely rare (sometimes cats will play with their prey prior to eating) it if at all. In this context, I've observed (as I grew up) that we as humans portent that we are "enlightened" and above this kind of behavior. If the truth be said, we can talk all we want about how enlightened we are as a species "with the large brain" but our animal instincts ring loud and strong more often than I'm comfortable with, while displacing reason, courtesy, and virtues in the process. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
technicalninja Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Would have been interesting to see the outcome if the hunters had been armed with swords and spears. Would have been a lot more "sporting". Probably the Lion would not allow the Humans within spear range as it appeared the Lion was trying to avoid a conflict The Hunters would have had something to brag about with edged weapons. Pretty sad IMO. I would not want the woman who is impressed by this video. I am a hunter and gun enthusiest but to me these guys looked mean and very stupid. They also couldn't shoot very well and the Lion suffered unnecessarily. I was rooting for the Lion. Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 I agree with TechnicalNinja. I'm a hunter and have been since I was a kid but this was not hunting. Those guys were out there for the kill and nothing else. Me and the guys I hunt with are not about the kill but about being in the outdoors and enjoying nature. It's thrilling to stalk an animal but the kill is a hard thing, I never enjoy it. I do enjoy eating the meat but that and being in the great outdoors is why I hunt. The kill and cleanup after are a big mess. As for the supermarket being a more "enlightened" place to get our meat I have to totally dis-agree. Getting our meat from the "supremarket" has helped de-value life for all of us. There's something about looking an animal in the eye when you kill it and then having to deal with preparing the meat that makes you respect life that much more. Those a-holes who took that lion won't have to deal with the aftermath and therefore it's meaningless to them. Wheelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240Z2NV Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 OK, I decided to get off the sidelines and jump into the fray, fully expecting to piss off some of you "macho" hunters. There are clearly two distinct discussions taking place on this thread based upon one video (which I won't even validate by watching). Killing for sustinance and survival is one thing, though doing it with highly engineered weapons diminishes the justification. Any one ever think about 'fair fights'? Then you can bear witness to 'survival of the fittest'. Sure our prehistoric predecessors developed weapons to skew the scales in their favor, and thus, we 'evolve' (or did we?). But, I would much have preferred to justify killing for survival had it been carried out with only what we were given at birth. Afterall, the animals don't carry around high powered rifles, or super high tech bows, etc. And yes, I do buy meat from the grocery store, and yes, unfortunately I am aware that those products are not acquired by playing Yanni to the animals as they are being 'gently eliminated'...I struggle with the notion frequently; but vegetarianism just isn't for me. I do, however, take very small 'comfort' knowing that those animals' entire existence was propagated solely for the purpose of food supply. Bringing up the 'argument' that we "eat meat, don't we", and "distancing ourselves from the kill makes it okay, right?" brings up an entirely different discussion than what the video demonstrates. The locale in which these hunts generate 'income' for 'survival' should find a more noble way to serve their own population...maybe forced birth control would be a good place to start. I truly believe that ANY hunting for 'sport' only proves that the perpetrator has some real problems with impotence, and finding some need to prove how 'virile' they are. Really tough guys always carry big guns (or even big knives, or bows, etc.), and shoot 'unarmed' animals, right? Maybe it is a rural thing, me being from the beach area and all; but, NO ONE will ever be able to justify hunting for 'sport' to me or the people I associate with. Now, as stated earlier, I fully expect to enrage some of you 'well-hung' hunters, and will be flamed as a result, and if my nickname is Gandhi as a result, so be it; but, "humans" that kill for 'thrills' and 'sport' ultimately have a much bigger problem than the animals that they senselessly kill. I had originally written some very sharp 'commentaries' on the kind of person that needs to blow away a duck with a shot gun; but, chose to alienate myself less in this great hybrid community by toning it down. OK, I had my chance... flame away Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
80LS1T Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Well I was going to stay out of this but as a hunter I feel obligated to defend what I do. I didnt watch the video cause I still have dial-up and I dont feel like waiting forever for it to download. Now what do you think would happen if we stopped hunting say deer? Well eventutally they would over populate and just die of starvation during the winter months(atleast here in Wisconsin). Not only that but there would be waaaaay more deer/car accidents. Yes there are guys that I know that dont hunt for the meat but for the kill but the guys who dont want the meat give it away to either friends or the local food pantry. So atleast someone is getting the meat. I cant stand guys who go out and just kill animals either. All it does is make the people who actually hunt legally and ethically look bad because thats the only thing you ever hear about, is how there have been X number of pochers caught. I hate pouchers so much that I even turned in my step dads friend for pouching deer at night with a spot light and a rifle! That still makes me mad to this day. Yeah that guy can no longer hunt for the rest of his life! I just think thats its unfair to the people who actually hunt ethically, to be labeled as a bad person because of dumb a$$'s like in that video! Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Z Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Read what I said above 240Z2NV to put these thoughts into context... Once again the original argument gets derailed. I appreciate your opinions about killing for sport, throwing in the part about duckhunters at the end however saws the legs out on that part of your argument. Duck hunters eat the non-endangered species they shoot just as I could order dead duck in a restaurant. Food is NOT the case with the lion, so using the duck example will only serve to get this argument going in circles. I don't hunt personally, but have friends that do and I know where their dues are going. Here in California hunting licence fees are the bread and butter for many conservation efforts, so whether you're a hunter or not one must appreciate dough they pour into keeping areas natural. P.S. while I was writing this 80LT1 chimed in, this is the sort of response you're going to get from hunters. They know that animal populations are very closely monitored here in the U.S., and again a deer is good eating/will overpopulate whereas executing one of the few remaining lions is pure machismo. Two different things entirely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Boy, I tell you. There are few misunderstandings as great as non-hunters perception of hunters. Two quick quotes. The first from Wordsworth “One impulse of the vernal woods Will teach you more of man, Of moral evil and of good Than all the sages can†The second is paraphrased from a Jacques Cousteau special where he warned people to not inject put too much human emotion into interpreting nature phenomenon. He said in nature things are never cruel, “they simply areâ€. We have allowed ourselves to become pretty detached from our primal roots. That is why so many people have such a difficult time with the whole concept of the hunt. But that is exactly what most experienced hunters are seeking when they go into the woods and attempt to live and think like the animals there. As Wordsworth said, put down the books, turn off Dr Phil and get out and be a part of nature. But on this particular episode itself…. I am a hunter and gun enthusiest but to me these guys looked mean and very stupid. They also couldn't shoot very well and the Lion suffered unnecessarily. I was rooting for the Lion. Rick Couldn't agree more. These guys were a bunch of bozo’s. Funny how everyone picks up on the scope as some type of unfair advantage. I was thinking they would have been much better defended with iron sites and say a 375 H&H firing solid bullets. But still, I think many people don’t realize how difficult it would be to hold a steady shot with a pissed off, wounded male lion charging directly at you. These guys obviously failed the grade since they failed to drop the animal before it hit one of them. So do you condemn all hunters because these guys were ill prepared for their hunt? As far as fair. Some years ago there was an NBA guy they got out of Africa. The announcers were all amazed that as part of a tribal tradition, he had killed a lion with a spear. All the announcers made a big deal out of this, when finally one asked him if he really stared down a lion with a spear. The player laughed at him and told him you don’t face the lion when he is awake. You wait until they are asleep, sneak up on them and stab them in the side. That would take bigger balls then I have. But I suppose there are quite a few who would dismiss it as cowardly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Getting our meat from the "supremarket" has helped de-value life for all of us. Wheelman I like that quote too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aaron Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 I saw this video months ago. While reading through this post it occured to me how generic some of these responses are, and how they could used to against our common hobby of hot rodding. i think hunting is BS I think hot rodding is BS. I do not see how someone can enjoy killing such an awsome creature I do not see how someone can enjoy killing our environment with such a machine. Totally against it ! (nothing to change here) They did it for the high-five, the video, and the pelt. They did it so they can tell the story to their friends and impress women. They did it for the high-five, the video, and the trophy. They did it so they can tell the story to their friends and impress women. My issued with this sad display of what some humans call "sport" is that there appears to be nothing "necessary" about this hunt other than the advantage of emotional self-gratification. My issued with this sad display of what some humans call "sport" is that there appears to be nothing "necessary" about this build other than the advantage of emotional self-gratification. I truly believe that ANY hunting for 'sport' only proves that the perpetrator has some real problems with impotence, and finding some need to prove how 'virile' they are. Really tough guys always carry big guns (or even big knives, or bows, etc.), and shoot 'unarmed' animals, right? I truly believe that ANY racing only proves that the perpetrator has some real problems with impotence, and finding some need to prove how 'virile' they are. Really tough guys always drive fast cars and polute our environment, right? I don't hunt (don't have the patience), but I do fish occasionally. I guess I have too much of an advantage since I use a hook and line. I should be swimming around in the water and catching them with my hands to be fair. I do support everyone's right to hunt, the right to free expression, the right to build and drive anything I choose, and the right to worship without hinderance. You know what I am talking about, the principles our country was founded on. I will bite my tongue over the "rural" comment made above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 OK, I decided to get off the sidelines and jump into the fray, fully expecting to piss off some of you "macho" hunters. Seems to me kinda hard to be a "macho" hunter these days. So much easier to take the high road and say the PC thing. Then you come off looking like a "sensitive ponytail man" and that's what is non-offensive in today's society. There are clearly two distinct discussions taking place on this thread based upon one video (which I won't even validate by watching). Killing for sustinance and survival is one thing, though doing it with highly engineered weapons diminishes the justification. Any one ever think about 'fair fights'? Then you can bear witness to 'survival of the fittest'. Sure our prehistoric predecessors developed weapons to skew the scales in their favor, and thus, we 'evolve' (or did we?). But, I would much have preferred to justify killing for survival had it been carried out with only what we were given at birth. Would you attack a lion or a bear or even a deer with your bare hands? The average lion weighs 350-550 lbs, and is equipped with 19 (I think) razor sharp claws and huge teeth and powerful jaws and can run (I'm guessing) 30-35 mph. So where is the fair fight in sending a human, or a group of humans out to do battle with their practically non existant claws and weak jaws and thin skin? That doesn't seem like a "fair" fight at all. How many men have been killed by lions? 100s, 1000s? How many lions have been killed by totally unarmed men? 0? 1? We evolved this way so that we can use tools. What were the first tools? Weapons. Not too much anthropological evidence supporting the stone age hairbrush, but they're out there finding knives and spear tips all the time. Bringing up the 'argument' that we "eat meat, don't we", and "distancing ourselves from the kill makes it okay, right?" brings up an entirely different discussion than what the video demonstrates. The locale in which these hunts generate 'income' for 'survival' should find a more noble way to serve their own population...maybe forced birth control would be a good place to start. I agree with you that the meat eaters thing is a whole other argument, but it didn't seem to stop people from saying it, so I and some others defended that part of the argument. FORCED BIRTH CONTROL??? REALLY? Who would force it on them? The UN? The US? I'd rather just not provide aid then force birth control on some of these African countries... As far as fair. Some years ago there was an NBA guy they got out of Africa. The announcers were all amazed that as part of a tribal tradition, he had killed a lion with a spear. All the announcers made a big deal out of this, when finally one asked him if he really stared down a lion with a spear. The player laughed at him and told him you don’t face the lion when he is awake. You wait until they are asleep, sneak up on them and stab them in the side. This points out my other pet peeve when it comes to hunting or being out in nature in general. People tend to romanticize Indians or tribesmen or aboriginees as "at one with nature". What a load of CRAP. They're people, and they'll use any advantage they can get. Just like people do. I haven't killed an animal in 10 years or more. I don't hunt, and probably won't until I have kids and I want to show them where food comes from, just like my dad did for me. When I looked at this video though, I was immediately thinking "I know where this is going to go and I don't like it". I knew that people would say roughly the things that have come out here. I wouldn't go on that hunt if someone else paid the $100K or whatever for me, but I also am not going to try and stop the guy from doing so, or pass judgement on him. There is, at least to me, a very big correlation between the hunter and EVERY ONE OF US. Every time one of us opens the throttle of our Z car and turns a lap on the track, or makes a pass at the drag strip, or even drives to the "warehouse of death" (grocery store) in our Zs, there is some idiot crying about how our cars are "overkill" and "don't need to be on the road" and "macho machines" that we put together to "prove our manliness". Even though I wouldn't be part of that hunt I'm going to defend that guy to the end because I think he should be able to do it. I don't agree with it, I wouldn't do it myself, but there's no rational reason that I can see to argue against it, although you have made it clear that there are lots of emotional ones. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Thanks Aaron!!! You rock! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Z Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 You guys go ahead and chase your tails on this one, wander off in another direction, equate your Z to blowing away an endangered animal, whatever. Most hunters have said these guys are jackasses already, then go into some defense of their position as a hunter. Not necessary in this case since traditionally hunters "hunt" for food, which has nothing to do with the fate of this lion. Some of you may be looking for for an argument without end. In any case I'll re-post my first point and then get outta the way: Defending this type of behavior has nothing to do with meatpacking. What we have here is whether 'I kill you because I can' is cool or not. PURE AND SIMPLE, YOU EITHER THINK YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL JUST FOR FUN - YOUR RIGHT AS A "SUPERIOR" CREATURE, OR YOU DON'T! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 HeavyZ, I think you're absolutely right in all of your previous arguments. The problem I have with this argument is that it really boils down to animal rights. You say "kill for fun", but it can be more closely defined as "when is it appropriate to kill an animal and when is it not". This is a slippery slope argument, and there is no other rationale for "this killing is appropriate, but that one is not" other than a purely emotional one that I've seen. BTW--The African Lion is currently not listed as endangered or threatened: http://www.kidsplanet.org/factsheets/african_lion.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David K Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 BTW--The African Lion is currently not listed as endangered or threatened: Either are you! Im sure you wouldnt enjoy a group of Lions outnumbering and scoping you for fun. I like the responses by people for hunting, they make no sense whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 If I were out in the bush in Africa alone, they WOULD outnumber me and track me down and kill me. And there would be no guilty lions saying "maybe you shouldn't kill that guy, he's not really a good source of food, and he's so majestic it would be a crime". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David K Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 If I were out in the bush in Africa alone, they WOULD outnumber me and track me down and kill me. And there would be no guilty lions saying "maybe you shouldn't kill that guy, he's not really a good source of food, and he's so majestic it would be a crime". Exxxxxactly, now we are getting somewhere! They would track you down and kill you, FACE TO FACE, by claw and teeth. Its the natural thing to do. Would you care to explain how a high powered peice of technology like a rifle with a dead aim scope is natural? Point being, lots of hunting is done for stupid kicks and giggles. At the end of the day, they "hunter" goes home feeling macho. Ever watch that Ted Nugent character on his hunting show? While he is carefully observing a deer, he does a lot of commenting on how beautiful and majestic it is. After about an hour or so of observing the deer, he loads and cocks a rifle and blows a hole in the side of the deer. Then he walks to find the deer that has bled to death over an hour or so, and commences to kneeling down next to it to admire its beauty with "ooohs" and "ahhhs". IF ITS BEAUTIFUL, WHY THE HELL DID YOU JUST BLOW A HOLE IN ITS SIDE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Z Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Sorry, I couldn't resist. This is a slippery slope argument, and there is no other rationale for "this killing is appropriate, but that one is not" other than a purely emotional one that I've seen. The same emotions that make you want to protect your family, your pets, etc? Why must we have ownership over a life before it is of value to us? BTW--The African Lion is currently not listed as endangered or threatened: http://www.kidsplanet.org/factsheets/african_lion.html Problems in the Congo, South Africa, and Zimbabwe have the numbers once again in jeopardy. Recently a South African newspaper stated that 1/3 to 1/2 of the big game in Zimbabwe has been wiped out in the last 2 years. Unless you read African papers, you probably missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 None of the sources I checked online had up to the minute stats on lion populations, but NONE of them listed the lion as an endangered species. You're right I don't read African newspapers. Do you? Was the endangered part really the argument? Didn't seem like it to me... The same emotions that make you want to protect your family, your pets, etc? Why must we have "ownership" over a life before it is of value to us? Survival instinct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Exxxxxactly, now we are getting somewhere! They would track you down and kill you, FACE TO FACE, by claw and teeth. Its the natural thing to do. Would you care to explain how a high powered peice of technology like a rifle with a dead aim scope is natural? Point being, lots of hunting is done for stupid kicks and giggles. At the end of the day, they "hunter" goes home feeling macho. This isn't going to go over well with you or most people, but I feel that my Winchester rifle is a product of nature. Since I am not a creationist, I feel that man evolved into a tool builder. He used his brain and his tools to make the Winchester which is also a tool, therefore it is NATURAL. Your Z is a product of nature. Nuclear power plants are natural. Maybe a religious person could get out of that conundrum, but since I feel that human existence is a product of nature, then everything humans do is natural. If you can explain to me how I'm wrong, I'd love to hear it. IF ITS BEAUTIFUL, WHY THE HELL DID YOU JUST BLOW A HOLE IN ITS SIDE! TO EAT IT, BECAUSE YOU CAN, SOME PEOPLE ENJOY IT, ETC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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