Our rights are being taken away-Patriot Act

[pparaska]

I don't get around on many different forums, so I'd like to ask you all something: Have you EVER seen a thread where so much interesting information was posted?

 

I've learned alot - which is sad to say. I didn't realize I was that ignorant of the stuff I've been reading about here.

 

Personally, I hope that this thread or others like it continue at HybridZ. I used to think this place was just good for gearhead info. Well, I've learned more about politics and US history in the past 14 pages than I care to admit!

 

Yeah, things have gotten a bit personal from time to time, but time will heal those scant wounds. I'm glad Mike stepped in, because the tone DID bother me a bit. If nothing else it was a warning to keep it civil and most importantly factually based and less emotional. If Mike could have given you a scolding glance, that might have been all that was said.

[Guest freedomfighter]

I, for one, can't wait to meet the people in person that we have had this wonderful discussion with. I LOVE AMERICA... AND THE PEOPLE OF AMERICA. I would stand side by side with any one of them to fight for our freedom... as long as certain panties got left at home... LOL... JK...

 

PP... the tone? Come on man, this little piece of our world has been incredibly tame... by anyone's standards. You want viscous... watch the evening news, dude. People's passion should be admired and loved... not avoided... or shut down. This has been massively civil... and barely personal. In fact, the only personal aspect is that of concern and care. Don't be over sensitive pansies, people... debate is healthy... and should forever be embraced!

[pparaska]

Freedomfighter: I understand that many may think there is nothing wrong with the tone - especially when I read stuff on other automotive sites.

 

But the people who started HybridZ and who first joined wanted it to be a place where it seemed like you were at a good buddies house having a small friendly party where everyone was civil and well behaved. That means no name calling, little swearing, etc. Yeah, that might make you think we are pansies for wanting that, but really, we're not. We just want a refuge on the net from the antagonistic unfriendly stuff that is so common. We pay a price for that - being called pansies - but that's o.k.

 

We like to keep the place incredibly civil - that was one of the main reasons this site was set up - to have a place on the net away from all that. This site (and Owen's original v8swappersforum.com) were started to get away from the purists on places like Zcar.com that whined and bitched everytime someone said anything about an American V8 in the Z. So we may seem a bit oversensitive to the typical Internet back-and-forth. It's because many of us look to this place to be our calm respite from all that. That's why the rules

http://hybridz.org/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=24337

sound the way they do. We take it quite seriously to keep the place civil.

 

I realize that the stuff on the news is worse in tone. Kerry and his supporters have stepped over my line of what's acceptable to say about a current US president many times. I realize the world as portrayed on TV, radio, media print is ugly - they do that to make money - dirt sells.

 

HybridZ will hold itself to higher standards than what goes easily over on TV, etc.

 

You can call us pansies for wanting it this way, but that won't change the fact that we will police the forums to uphold the rules to keep hybridZ incredibly civil.

 

Afterall, the main purpose of this site is to exchange technical information - an instance of where being uncivil adds nothing to the exchange, since the technical posts need to deal with FACTS. Having a non-tech forum that allows these kinds of threads is actually something that has been debated by the admins/moderators. I personally like the fact that we have these kinds of threads here - I think alot of readers have learned alot and were given a chance to rethink their views.

 

Sorry if you don't like it but those are the rules and views of the administrators, moderators and many of the members of HybridZ.

[Guest freedomfighter]

Freedomfighter: I understand that many may think there is nothing wrong with the tone - especially when I read stuff on other automotive sites.

 

But the people who started HybridZ and who first joined wanted it to be a place where it seemed like you were at a good buddies house having a small friendly party where everyone was civil and well behaved. That means no name calling' date=' little swearing, etc. Yeah, that might make you think we are pansies for wanting that, but really, we're not. We just want a refuge on the net from the antagonistic unfriendly stuff that is so common. We pay a price for that - being called pansies - but that's o.k.

 

We like to keep the place incredibly civil - that was one of the main reasons this site was set up - to have a place on the net away from all that. This site (and Owen's original v8swappersforum.com) were started to get away from the purists on places like Zcar.com that whined and bitched everytime someone said anything about an American V8 in the Z. So we may seem a bit oversensitive to the typical Internet back-and-forth. It's because many of us look to this place to be our calm respite from all that. That's why the rules

http://hybridz.org/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=24337

sound the way they do. We take it quite seriously to keep the place civil.

 

I realize that the stuff on the news is worse in tone. Kerry and his supporters have stepped over my line of what's acceptable to say about a current US president many times. I realize the world as portrayed on TV, radio, media print is ugly - they do that to make money - dirt sells.

 

HybridZ will hold itself to higher standards than what goes easily over on TV, etc.

 

You can call us pansies for wanting it this way, but that won't change the fact that we will police the forums to uphold the rules to keep hybridZ incredibly civil.

 

Afterall, the main purpose of this site is to exchange technical information - an instance of where being uncivil adds nothing to the exchange, since the technical posts need to deal with FACTS. Having a non-tech forum that allows these kinds of threads is actually something that has been debated by the admins/moderators. I personally like the fact that we have these kinds of threads here - I think alot of readers have learned alot and were given a chance to rethink their views.

 

Sorry if you don't like it but those are the rules and views of the administrators, moderators and many of the members of HybridZ.[/quote']

 

Pete,

As I said before, I HAVE READ THE RULES... IF, and that's a big IF... IF I was in violation of the rules (which I still do not agree that I was), then it was in response to violations to the rules, my position, and me... its there for all to read.

As for the tone of you last post... you seem to me to be reacting to my use of the word pansies to describe reactions by certain people. I did not call you or anyone a pansie.

"People's passion should be admired and loved... not avoided... or shut down."

Did you miss this part? I have been to countless "good buddy parties" (both professional and casual) and can state without hesitation that this has been the most civil political discussion I have ever seen, especially when you take into account the seriousness of this topic and the times we are living in.

HybridZ creators/admins should be proud of the job they have done developing this comfortable little refuge.

[Pop N Wood]

Hey I vote we ban him. The guy has less than 50 posts, all but a handful on the Non-Tech board. In that short time he has somehow survived an argument with Mike Kelly about proper conduct, and now he is trying to tell the guy who wrote the rules what the rules are. Funny how he can call Pete a pansy and still congratulate him for making such a wonderful site.

 

He came in at a weird time in HybridZ history when we have several, very political threads in progress. I know I have been overly consumed with them. But even still, he seems pretty clueless about taking advice. How many people here know the first rule of HybirdZ is to not argue with the moderators?

 

His first post was your typical noob posting asking what you would do to build the "money is no object Z car". So far he has brought nothing but consternation to this site and unquestionably has no sense of history. IMO he would be happier on a Honda site anyway since he is simply a flame war waiting to happen.

[tannji]

would that last post be a flame, or just judisciously close to one? Come on Boner..... if I can reign it in, so can you. Freedom needs to tone it down slightly, but he is correct that he has not been any more extravagent than the replies to him. The moderators do an excellent job here, and dont need EITHER of you telling them how to run the site.

 

It isnt often you can have relatively civil threads like this on politics OR religeon. Lets keep it the way it is, police our own posts, and leave the admin to the admins.

[Pop N Wood]

Come on Boner.....

 

And what would this be?

 

Check out the taxation thread.

 

http://hybridz.org/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=37218

 

Who is sparking the first flame in that one?

[Tim240z]

JUST CHILL OUT!! Don't get your knickers in a twist so easily.........

[tannji]

Boner is legit = ) I cant imagine boner or woody being offensive to someone who uses the nomer "Pop N Wood" unless there is something else at stake. as for the link.... I already read that, nothing struck me as offensive, but I am not already pissed off at anyone in particular, so I may be a little less sensitive.

[Guest freedomfighter]

Hey I vote we ban him. The guy has less than 50 posts' date=' all but a handful on the Non-Tech board. In that short time he has somehow survived an argument with Mike Kelly about proper conduct, and now he is trying to tell the guy who wrote the rules what the rules are. Funny how he can call Pete a pansy and still congratulate him for making such a wonderful site.

 

He came in at a weird time in HybridZ history when we have several, very political threads in progress. I know I have been overly consumed with them. But even still, he seems pretty clueless about taking advice. How many people here know the first rule of HybirdZ is to not argue with the moderators?

 

His first post was your typical noob posting asking what you would do to build the "money is no object Z car". So far he has brought nothing but consternation to this site and unquestionably has no sense of history. IMO he would be happier on a Honda site anyway since he is simply a flame war waiting to happen.[/quote']

 

Just to add a kind and civil comment... I was not arguing with the mods... only asking for clarity and pointing out that my tone was NO different then the ones I was RESPONDING to. And, again, I was not calling Pete a pansy. I was commenting on a "reactionary attitude" not the person. I happen to like Peter very much and have tremendous respect for him (and have spent quite a bit of time on his personal web sight). I was only asking for FAIR treatment.

As for the number of post... how truly petty. I have been spending most of my time in here SEARCHING and READING... not posting. A "noob", in my opinion, post first and looks later. I have to much respect for this sight to waste space and time when there is so much already in here.

SPIN IT any way you like, pop... the proof is in the thread!

[Pop N Wood]

Man you still don't get it. Go back a read a few of the posts that got people banned and you will see you are fitting the pattern. Look at the first post in this one from the Announcements thread

 

http://hybridz.org/nuke/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=24477

 

That was a stressful time in our history. Don’t want to see it happen again.

 

The number of post is relevant in two regards. You don’t have a feeling for the history of past problems and what constructive content have you added to this site?

 

But don’t listen to me. Don’t listen to the warnings. Keep arguing with Mike Kelly. Keep telling Pete that you didn’t violate the rules and that you didn’t call him what you did. Keep displaying your ignorance by calling people things like “liberal pigâ€. I am sure it will get you where you want to be.

[Kevin Shasteen]

PSYCH.., made you look!

 

Kevin,

(Yea,Still an Inliner)

[Guest freedomfighter]

Shall we measure up wienies now?

 

Liberal pig. I'll have to share that one with a few friends.

 

Oooohh... is that what your talking about? Well' date=' I do tend to be rather blunt at times, I just call it like I see it. I would imagine that Pop and his friends wear the distinction like a badge of honor. I doubt that it bothered him. I have several friends that are self proclaimed liberal pigs... ya know, tax & spend & tax & spend, etc... liberal pigs... oink, oink...

 

[b']Pop, if you were sincerely offended, then I'm sorry. Offending was not my point... defining the situation as I saw it was.[/b]

 

Pop,

This was my post @ the top of page 12

To steal a term from Bill O'Reilly... the spin really must stop here.

[260ZRED]

I just read the last 15 pages of this post. With respect to all viewpoints, heres my contribution to this matter:

 

In my opinion, this country is the most priceless, the most dearest notion of freedom and liberty that exists in the world. Im not saying its perfect. But I dare you to find a better, a more prosperous, and a SAFER country to live in.

 

The PA is a small cancer to this country. I think we have to cut out the cancer before it can spread. If we allow cancers like this to spread, we will start going downhill very fast.

 

The less control you grant other people over what you do, the better.

 

I was born in USSR. I'll be the first to say that there exists some stupid, incomprehensible satisfaction in being part of a herd. But only untill you realize that nothing ever was acomplished by a herd. When you realize that, and gain self controll and self respect as an individual, and satisfaction in NOT BEING A PART OF SOME HERD, then you become what I can say is an American.

 

The power of America and why this country is what it is today is because of individuals. Basicly it works like this: You get what you earn (what did you get acomplished?) In USSR and in other countries rotted with socialism, you get what your neighbor-herd-government thinks you deserve. No one cares what you acomplished. If you actually DID acomplish something and made an invention, an improvement, etc, they will say the Herd invented it. The Herd did it. Not you. You get what they think you should deserve. Get it? Dont forget that simple fact.

 

To me, the PA just smells like a small step towards the "left". If some one can explain why it is not I will admit that I am wrong.

 

When you take an individual's rights away, you take away a part of the individual. No matter what or how small the rights you take away. In this case we're dealing mostly with privacy.

 

Without individualism and everything that it stands for, you're going to end up in a socialist herd conforming sphere. A small step to the left (herd mentality/communism/people's parties/socialism) will require many painfull steps in the reverse direction to get things back like they were. If thats possible...

[Mikelly]

OK Gentlemen, Because this has turned to a LESS THAN HAPPY read for ALL OUR MEMBERS, and has started to gravetate towards personal comments AT Each other by a few members, I Locked it... But now I've UNLOCKED it...

 

FreedomFighter, Get it in check or GET OUT. PERIOD. I'm done justifying WHY your comments offended SOME READERS. There are a lot of folks on this site and many of them READ and don't POST. They do however comment to me offline when something offends them... If you don't approve of the way we moderate then TOUGH. I think you contribute, and are very intelligent, so I shouldn't have to tell you that you can be Passionate about a topic while being civil... No panties being worn (I'm actually a commando kinda guy, myself! ) and no pansies in site.

 

As I told POP before, and I'll tell YOU now, THIS site doesn't operate under the view of YOU BEING ABLE TO EXERCISE YOUR RIGHT to free speech. You are more than welcome to fork over the money, start you own site and do that... But not here...

 

You are however, FREE to stay, so long as you get it in check... You are bordering on confrontational arguements with other members and this site isn't the place for it...

 

I'm not Baning anyone, and I'd appreciate other members NOT recommending anyone be baned... With the number of admins and moderators we have here, we're more than capable of showing someone to the door... and with THREE other ADMINS actively in this thread, THAT is why I reversed my own decision and UNLOCKED it... But just be aware that we're watching this and other "politically driven" threads.

 

As Pete Paraska stated before... This site is NOT like the rest of www land. We're doing everything we can to keep it that way. I'd like to think that people of all walks of life can come in, enjoy the read, contribute to topics, without feeling like their opinion would ever be attacked... Regardless of the opinions of some, I think it is healthy to have these discussions, so long as we keep that last comment in mind. We have people from every persuassion and every religion who frequent this site. Please be considerate of them as well.

 

Mike Kelly 8)

[pparaska]

O.k. - the rules need to be updated then. If it's not clear enough that some of what FF has been posting is in a TONE that won't be tolerated (not saying others haven't - but in mostly in response to that), then I will update the rules to make in impecably clear.

 

This is a very tough topic to not get emotional about. Overall, I think we've done well. Let's get back to the topic at hand (Patriot Act, citizen's rights), if anyone has anything to ADD.

[pparaska]

I'm going to use some quotes from this long thread to make a point of what I mean about bad tone and what's appropriate or not. Some may feel what I'm representing is just good spirited discussion. I (and others) that want a more civil HybridZ think it steps over the line of into the land of "bad tone" and toward flamage.

 

In my experience' date=' the “sheeple†are on the side of the patriot act because they simply don’t take the time to research things.

 

What category do you fall in?[/color']

 

There are far to many wonderfully brilliant posts on this very thread refuting this very statement. Frankly, I'm shocked... ... to be reading that this is STILL your possition. Personally, I choose to fall into the catagory of the silent majority who know that WE are in charge of the Patriot Act... and as a Patriot, I choose to believe in the greater good of those we elect into office, giving them the responsibility of getting it done on our behalf.

 

1. Maybe I am using too many big words for you. Was it not fair my turning your own argument back at you? Pertinent or not? I am having a real problem with people using the word “sheeple†to seemingly discredit other people’s arguments when they are incapable of providing anything other than generalities to support their own arguments. My guess is the majority of the "sheeple" remain blissfully ignorant of anything to do with the patriot act.

 

2. One other thing. You might try taking a course on the constitution to better understand where the government, our government, derives it’s power. It really doesn’t matter to me what your beliefs are. If the elected representatives pass a law that is conflicts with the constitution, then they have violated the very contract which grants them their power. Probably 95% of the Patriot Act is benign, common sense procedural items that probably needed to be done anyway (check out the web site the DOJ created site to promote this very agenda: http://www.lifeandliberty.gov). But the other 5% does violate the spirit, if not the letter of the constitution. And I believe history will prove me right when the courts strike down those portions of the act.

 

 

NO' date=' I'm not saying anything. History proves that record clearly. Its not opinion, it is the record. Luck had nothing to do with it. Policy did. Tax Policy. The MORE the government "allows" us and business to keep of our own production... the better the economy will due. It's plain and simple

.[/quote']

.

3. Again, a massive oversimplification hardly worth responding to other than to say nothing concerning the economy is so black and white. “provesâ€, “clearlyâ€, “not an opinionâ€. All unsubstantiated verbiage.

 

4. And please, stop quoting Hollywood movies to support your arguments.

 

Wow... Don't know how I missed this one... but feel that I must respond.

1. LOOK, BONER, my IQ would make your freakin head spin... the facts have been overly reported by now and I have no reason to state anything more then a summary of said conclusions... TAX CUTS ALWAYS INCREASE THE GOV'S INTAKE BY STIMULATING THE ECONOMY... INCREASING THE PEOPLE'S SPENDING. There's just something about the people keeping more of their BLOOD, SWEAT, AND TEARS... rather then allowing liberal pigs, like yourself, to STEAL IT!!!

2. What a superbly stupid attempt at insulting someone's understanding of such a supremely simple document.

3. Actually, as a business owner in the top 1% of income earners nationwide... net worth in the seven figures... there is nothing more simple then the "black and white" of the "books"... PERIOD... that statement alone outlines the massive depth of your own personal ignorance, related to these very issues.

4. As for the cute little reference to "Dave" the movie... just that, cute. I never "quoted" the movie. I simply stated that if an entrepreneur got in there and unfolded the budget... cutting out the pork... we could balance the budget, year after year... it's a fact. BUT, people and special interest groups would get cut and there would be liberal stories about the injustice... there simply is no winning in that arena!

 

 

 

O.k. Look at the Red stuff. The Red is what I'd call "too heated" or "bad tone". Some may think that's PC, pansy, whatever. But its not accepted on HybridZ. It also makes the person look like they don't have anything worth saying, since they went toward hyperbole, name calling, "holier-than-though", or whatever other tactic that is not acceptable in a real debate.

 

O.k. "BONER" was used in jest - but the part right after it was not acceptable. It was pulling the "I'm smarter than you" offense. But it was in response to numbers 1. and 2. in the post above it was quoting, that were pulling the same tactic. jab versus jab. It needs to stop after the FIRST jab, and be dealt with between the people OFFLINE. But not a back and forth on the forum. It adds NOTHING to the atmosphere or the content of the thread - just look at most of page 15 of this thread for an example of that.

 

 

Another post:

 

THERE IS NO NAME CALLING ON THIS WEBSITE. Freedomfighter I suggest you go back and CLEAN UP your post...

 

We've come a long way on this particular topic' date=' remaining civil and keeping the discussion lively... if you cannot play within those confines, then don't play, simple as that...

 

Mike Kelly

ADMINISTRATOR[/quote']

 

WHAT?! That's just about the stupidest show of over sensitivity I've ever seen. My use of "BONER" was a joking play on his screen name... Pop N Wood... don't be stupid, people. We "should" all be grown adults in here. There was nothing foul about the post.

 

 

Look at the Dark Red stuff. That's a flame IMO (which matters because I'm one of the admins). And it's a flame at a Admin. If you don't like what an Admin does, DON'T respond in public. Bring it to all admin's/moderator's attention if you have a problem with it. Sorry, maybe it's the way I was brought up, but slamming the authority figure is something that rubs me the wrong way. Piss on the cops car, and what happens? It's not tolerated at HybridZ - no matter how right you think your comments to the admin/moderator are. There's LESS that free speech rights here on HybridZ.

 

 

DON'T EVEN THINK about responding to what I've wrote above in this thread - PM or email me or the other admins or mods if you have something to say - this thread is not a forum for anyone (but the people who run HybridZ) to debate this issue of "bad tone".

 

In other words, get back to the topic of the thread or don't post here.

[pparaska]

I want to let you guys know that the water is under the bridge on this one. As far as I'm concerned anyway. I suggest everyone kiss and make up - it's not worth staying mad about anything personal that's happened in this thread.

 

I still think this is one of the most interesting threads I've read on HybridZ. All in all, it was worth the slight detour that came in the end - especially if no one holds any grudges. I sure don't. I feel fuller having read and been a part of this thread. Great group of people - as usual a cut above the ordianry in actions and thought - a HybridZ tradition.

[Pop N Wood]

Roger that.

[tannji]

Same here