Guest freedomfighter Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Pop' date=' The comment wasn't to you, [/quote'] But then I was involved in turning the thread ugly so an apology was still in order. I am not offended, given the source and context of the message. More annoyed really. Freeedomfighter's post reminds me of the parable of the three blind men "seeing" an elephant for the first time. Liberal pig. Obviously has not read many of my posts, has he? This one is new... please, Pop, would you be kind enough to enlighten me. As I posted a moment ago, I re-read your other posts. I agreed whole heartedly with almost all the points you made. In fact... the statement you made regarding most people being Sheeple because they are incorectly informed, or not at all... is totally true. I see the Patriot Act as a tool... better yet, a weapon. Like a Nuke, it would be really bad in the hands of the wrong people. BUT, I also see it as being very very good in the hands of the right people. In fact, someone posed this question to me once: "Would you have the same position if Clinton were still in office?" After a few moments of thought, I had to answer NO! But thankfully, he's not, and we need this weapon... at least for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I was kinda hoping to get some replies from Kevin and Michael, but oh well..... You are summing up my feelings pretty well. The Pat. Act is indeed a tool, and it remains to be seen how well it will be utilized. We have seen some pretty extreme and inappropriate actions out of the IRS over the years, but it has been my experience lately that with their new-found accountability they are more respectful and flexible. That is all I really want out of the Pat. Act.... accountability. Take away some of my freedoms if you must, be accountable, and make amends when necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Exactly my thoughts as well... And when The PA has lived out its usefulness, it will be struck down... It is a tool in a time this particular tool is needed... I just wish they would dig into the "Tool" shed and pull out those nukes... We could be done with this whole situation tomorrow... Mike 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 One last post: http://www.noogenesis.com/pineapple/blind_men_elephant.html And oh baby baby it's a wild world. Seems pertinent http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6067570/ For me, the most disheartening thing about this whole thread is the number of people who feel the way to protect our freedoms is to willing give them up for someone else to keep. Maybe I am over simplifing things, but perhaps we should be discussing the meanings of freedom vs. security. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Hey, "BONER".... as I said before, we have lost minor freedoms and regained them many times already in our history. Ask anyone from the Middle East about our "reduction" of freedom, and they will laugh at you. I will spend far more time being appreciative of the overall quality of life I enjoy here than I ever would quibbling about freedoms I could theoretically lose. Once again, where are the headlines? Where are the grannies being drug out of bed and strip-searched? School children being indoctinated and programmed to turn their families in to the state apparatus? Yeah, I will have infringements, like havine to submit to searches at airports. When I can see headline material, I will be more concerned. You cant have freedom without security, and it only follows that in times of heightened security, there will be less freedom. Kinda like having to evacuate when a hurricane rolls in. Inconvenient, but prudent. The hurricane will soon diminish to a tropical storm, and we will pick up the pieces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Like I said before Pop, I'd be all for doing away with the Patriot Act if they would just light off about SIX Nukes... Turn the region into a GLASS BOWL and be done... Could be a Dead (Pun intended) issue with one simple desicion to LIGHT THEM UP... We will fighting these people for the NEXT 100 years... It will not go away, and we will not win their hearts and souls. Either pull out or bull doze the whole region and start over... Can't have that nice warm middle of the road liberal answer to fix this one... They hate us and perceive that we have done enough damage (Americans in general, doesn't matter the persuasion or political bend) to deem us their NUMBER ONE target... I'm confident in saying that Israel has offically settled into the number two spot, and may fall into third behind England at the rate we are going... Blow 'em to hell and strike down the patriot act... That way Pop's happy, I'm happy, and we can get back to wrenching Zcars! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 You know I've read through every post in this thread and heard (seen) the phrase "We've lost freedoms because of the Patriot Act." or something very similar many times. Would someone please list these freedoms we've lost!! I hardly think loss of a little privacy, and even then only when a pattern of behavior warrents it, is losing some major freedom that affects our daily lives. Yeah we all hear the "But they could do this or that" statements, but what has been done that is such an abuse? Or is the liberal media covering it all up? I also think that most of us here hold basically the same view point about this. The Patriot Act has the potential to be a huge disaster for this country if it's abused. Will it be abused and if it is will we sit back and take it? I have to answer No to the entire question. There are enough people in this country that would raise a huge ruckus should something really serious happen that I think the chances are very slim we'll slide down that "slippery slope" to a tyranny because of the Patriot Act. Just look at this thread. Nothing dramatic has happened yet, but many people are already spun-up about it, imagine the reaction should something serious come to light. Wheelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I have asked at least 3 times for someone to list "proof of life" for our new police state, no takers. Too busy googling for new links to post to actually take a little less time and post something concrete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Wheelman, the point is that this act gives the govt the power to curtail your rights. It gives the govt the power to throw parts of the Bill of Rights out the window. The Bill of Rights was created because of the realization that the govt could overstep it's bounds very easily, and it was ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL to put limits on govt's power. It was a condition of ratification of the Constitution, and should not be limited unneccesarily. A lot of the computer stuff would never be detected by anyone until the FBI and CIA arrived at your front door. It's like asking "Who here has had their phone tapped?" Well, if it's done right you're not gonna know, are you??? You can try to rationalize with an "I've got nothing to hide" attitude, or a "necessary evil" attitude, but nobody thinks the war on terror is going to end anytime in the forseeable future, so you're basically saying "I agree with the govt's abridging my freedom in this time of crisis, and I am going to rely on the govt to determine when the crisis is over, and I am willing to let the govt decide if the govt screws anyone over." Maybe you're willing to make that statement, but that certainly doesn't mean that everyone should, or that Boner (sorry, couldn't resist) is wrong for questioning it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Hey, Jmort??? Almost without exception, EVERYONE here is acknowledging that the PA has given the Government abilities they didnt have before. It is like a permanent war powers act, if you will. It passed through the vote easily, and so far, has not caused much grief. (unless you are a congressman trying to fly home) What we are saying is yeah, OK. Where's the beef??? We know that potentially, there could be problems down the road. Hello!!!! We have Real problems right here, right now!! What a lot of us would like is three-fold. 1. Acknowledge that we have ackowledged your point, that the PA is a big bad meanie. 2. EITHER post proof of life for your police state agenda, 3. OR provide viable, realistic, real-world alternatives. Ones which do not require the US to commit economic suicide. Ones which do not rely on the Bad Guys having inner good. Ones that are not based on the US pretending that problems based outside our borders will stay there. Ones based on the premise that honest americans with limited computer expertise will be eventually protected by the courts, which have similar computer expertise. Question the PA, but it is here, it is meant to help in finding threats to our lives, never mind our daily pursuit of happiness, and so far, NO ONE has proposed anything of merit as an alternative. I will tell you when they have. PS... I almost forgot. Look into your crystal ball, and do a straw poll of all the americans (and victim of other nationalities) who died on 9-11. What percentage of them are overly concerned about the PA, or it potential abuse? OK, real world, what percentage of their survivors? How many are willing to deal with the potential consequences, real or imagined? Just askin...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 1. Acknowledge that we have ackowledged your point, that the PA is a big bad meanie. Consider this acknowledged. 2. EITHER post proof of life for your police state agenda, I don't think there is a police state agenda. I've said that a number of times now. 3. OR provide viable, realistic, real-world alternatives. Remove the parts of the act that give the gov't the power to spy on ANYONE without a warrant. I'm not against the whole act. I'm all for roaming wire taps and all that. WITH A WARRANT. Question the PA, but it is here, it is meant to help in finding threats to our lives, never mind our daily pursuit of happiness, and so far, NO ONE has proposed anything of merit as an alternative. I will tell you when they have. Not my job to give you an alternative. My job is to bitch and moan when my rights are being arbitrarily encroached upon. Yes, I meant to say arbitrarily. There is always a handy justification for giving the intelligence agencies more intelligence. It is true that they can do their job more effectively with more intelligence. It is true that it is POSSIBLE to save lives with more intelligence. It is true that I would rather risk death than give it to them. PS... I almost forgot. Look into your crystal ball, and do a straw poll of all the americans (and victim of other nationalities) who died on 9-11. What percentage of them are overly concerned about the PA, or it potential abuse? OK, real world, what percentage of their survivors? How many are willing to deal with the potential consequences, real or imagined? Just askin...... If I had my way 2/3 of the people on those flights would have been armed, so there probably would have been either dead terrorists or massive cabin decompression and a downed airliner. Either way would have been better than what we ended up with. Unfortunately for us all, WE DIDN'T MAKE A BIG ENOUGH DEAL OUT OF IT WHEN OUR 2ND AMENDMENT RIGHTS WERE PREVIOUSLY ABRIDGED!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 77vegasz Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 The government has neither the time or resources to indescriminently spy on all its citizens for fun. The patriot act was set up to be able to monitor hits on radical group web sites and then monitor those who have repeatedly surfed trhem. I think this is a necessary step in weeding out terrorist cell members and sympathizers in our country. Maybe we should all fight for our rights to surf the net with anonymity and continue giving flying lessons to terrorists as well. Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Yes, so if the government couldn't manage the data leading up to 9/11, what makes one think that they can manage 10X the data post Patriot Act? It was a piece of "feel good" legislation that gave Sheeple the warm fuzzy they craved after 9/11 so that they could believe in their hearts that "something" was being done to stop this. Like the hate crimes bill and every other bill that was passed in the heat of passion rather than logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 77vegasz Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 I agree that as in most bills there was the motive of passifying the masses. I also feel that we cannot stubornly go on with our heads in the sand blaming the government for all our woes. Terrorism is here to stay. Can we totally stop it? No. Can we minimize it? Yes. The Patriot act was in part a step in doing so. Was it the best step? Time will tell. Could beter things have been done? Probably. No government, Republican or Democrat will solve the homeland security issue overnight. What is needed is for the two parties to put aside their childish differences, and collaberate on this issue. If they can't do that, who needs any of the current politicians in office? Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Jon, I think you miss-understand my position on this. I don't like the Patriot Act any more than you and will pay very close attention (as much as I can) to how it is/might be abused. I fully agree with you regarding the Bill of Rights and why it was established (ratified). Government without limits tends to expand to the point it controls everything. I'm the last person to promote more intrusion into my private life by the government than is absolutely necessary. So I think we are closer in our opinions than may have been evident from my posts. But and I think this is a big BUT, I'm also a pragmatist. I don't think there was any way possible for the government to do a single thing about terrorist cells in our country with the system the way it was prior to the Patriot Act. Hell, the police have a hard time dealing with the local gang-bangers let alone trained mercenaries. Anyway, the last several posts by Tannji and 77vegasz have done a good job of summarizing how I feel. We needed some changes to give our enforcement and intelligence agencies the ability to do some what of a job in preventing as much terrorist activity as possible. As for the requirement for a warrant, I thought one was still required but the process for getting them had been greatly streamlined. Am I wrong here? If I'm wrong then I will have to re-evaluate my position and to say I would strongly desire to have that changed immediately. BlueOvalz, I believe part of the reason the data could not be handled before was the stove-pipe mentallity of the agencies involved. Although eliminating the compartmentalization of the data doesn't mean the analysts will be able to sort though it all, but at least they'll have access to everything that might be relevant. The point that they can't deal with the data has less to do with should they have it than with the analysis capabilities. Not directly related to whether we should strike down the Patriot Act. I really fall more in line with Mike's attitude, Nuke em all and get it over with so we can relegate the Patriot Act to the ash heap of history. That brings up an idea I had for dealing with Zarqauwi and his bunch. Announce to the entire islamic world that for every hostage executed or terrorist act we will blow up a mosque and each mosque destroyed will be more significant than the last. If they insist on continuing we will eventually take out the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem and then Mecca and Medina. Of course then we would have to follow through on the threat. Wheelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 The government has neither the time or resources to indescriminently spy on all its citizens for fun. Similarly the gov't doesn't have the time or resources to test the long term effects of Syphillis on ALL of its citizens for fun either. Tell it to the people who were part of the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment from 1932-1972. The govt is not benevolent or malevolent by nature. I think it is very myopic to say that this administration won't abuse these powers, so they're OK. It is also foolhearty to say that INDIVIDUALS with access to this power won't abuse it, since we already have examples of that happening. Again, not saying similar abuses of power WOULD happen, just that they are POSSIBLE and that it's NOT WORTH THE RISK IMO. One more thing. I'm not much for CORPORATE encroachment into my privacy either. The Patriot Act is just potentially more dangerous because the government has guys with badges and guns whos' rights come before mine. I do see my Albertson's "Club Card" and my online banking as potential threats as well, but it's unlikely that a clerk at the store is going to "paper or plastic" me to death... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Jon, You know it's people who view the Patriot Act as you do that make me a little more comfortable with it. Please don't let us sway you to change your view. I believe there are enough of us Americans that are not overly fond of the government watching us to force the overturn of the Patriot Act as soon as possible. When it will happen is anyone's guess and what will trigger it remains to be seen but it will happen. That's why I don't get as spun-up about it as others, I know it has a limited lifetime. I have enough items in my life that I get spun-up about to keep me going for years so I won't add the Patriot Act to that list until the abuses cross a threshold line. Can't tell you where that line is yet but I'll know when it's crossed and it won't take much to push it there. Wheelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted September 23, 2004 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Terry, The reason we (The government Intelligence Infrastructure) couldn't plow through that pile of data is because of the era we lived through in the 90s... I was a government employee for one of those services and saw first hand the DEEP cuts made in personnel and resources... It was ONE of the reasons I resigned and became a consultant. For the rest of you, Again, as Tannji and others have asked, where is the PROOF it has been ABUSED? It hasn't. PERIOD... There are many many checks and balances in that bill to mitigate abuses... Could they happen? sure. Will they? Maybe, but I doubt it... Kinda like Freedom or Tannji stated early... It is a tool for the government to use during this period and will be terminated when the war is deemed "Won"... ... And if you really want to piss and moan about it, why not WRITE your senator or congressman... MOST of them voted for it... And I don't want to hear excuses WHY they voted for it... They voted and that is that... Complain to them... I'm done with this one... Tired of kicking this horse... flies are getting to thick! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 I think Jmort summed it up best by saying it wasnt his job to suggest alternatives, but rather to just sit and bitch. Well, people who just sit and bitch not only accomplish nothing personally, but also tend to get ignored.... which is kinda poetic in its simplistic justice. I personally believe people who can only criticize usually get their just deserts. Once again.... no examples of how we are actively being hurt by this, and an admission that bitching is the focus. Also, no reply on how people who, unlike Jmort and others, were directly impacted by 9-11 would tend to feel about efforts such as the PA. To put this in perspective.... I think Jmort should go buy an original automatic 1979 Datsun 280ZX. Dont fix it, dont improve it, Definitely dont Hybrid it.... just bitch about it, and wave at us passing you by, while the tranny struggles to engage first gear. Of course, I wont be passing anyone by until I get some work done to mine.... but I wont bitch about it in the meantime..... I have work to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 I have asked at least 3 times for someone to list "proof of life" for our new police state, no takers. Too busy googling for new links to post to actually take a little less time and post something concrete About the only thing I can say about that is quit being so lazy and research the issue yourself. I must read different newspapers than you guys. Incidents happen all of the time. The problem is, most of the written cases of abuse are occurring against Muslims. Judging from the tone of this thread I know many will not have a problem with that. But I don’t want to revert to those days again. Need a place to start? Try researching that Arab college professor from Florida who got put under 24 hour surveillance. Go to google, type in something like “arab professor Florida FBI surveillance†and start reading. You will get things like http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/fbim.htm Interesting article. Plenty of fuel for both sides. Oh, and as you read, remember the PA specifically states that the feds don’t have to tell you certain things if they don’t want. So you will be getting only part of the story no matter how diligently you search. Guess you will just have to trust them. Remember, these are the same people who did such a bang up job with Richard Jewel and Ruby Ridge. And what was the reason for keeping the B2 bomber classified for so long? To protect national security or to hide the budget from oversight? My single biggest complaint with the PA is lack of due process. Get on a watch list and the first you will know about it is when they bounce you from a plane. Who do you complain to when that happens? What are the established procedures for getting off the list once on? Ted Kennedy could call Colin Powell. What are you guys going to do? Are any of you honestly sleeping safer tonight knowing that Cat Stevens has been sent back out of the country? And can anyone tell me why he was? the Feds aren't (or did I just miss that?) Like I stated earlier, 95% of the PA was probably common sense things that needed to be done. But I have a real problem when people pick and chose what portions of the constitution they want to respect and worse yet when they want to enforce it. Before you know it, you have people thinking portions of the bill of rights doesn’t pertain to individuals but rather guarantees the right of the army to have guns. The same arguments you guys are using to justify the PA are used by the Sarah Brady’s of the world. “It is OK to sacrifice some protections if it makes us safer.†I refuse to give up the right to due process. And for those saying “we will watch it and see if it will become a problemâ€, isn’t that how we got in this mess in the first place? Haven’t you learned anything from 9/11? Some things are done as a matter of principle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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