Michael Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 America is a socially conservative country. It would take a considerable disaster for the more socially conservative candidate to lose, especially if that candidate is the incumbent. So, I agree that the race isn’t as close as most media outlets have been reporting it to be. Bush will win handily. My own reasons for opposing Bush include the following: * Bush has inexorably been shifting more power to the executive branch, at the expense of the other two branches of government. It’s a trend that began with Roosevelt, continued with Nixon, and accelerated with Bush. Ultimately this destabilizes our form of government. * Even more so than Reagan, Bush has allowed himself to be swayed (some would say manipulated) by a select cadre of appointees and staffers, who have become an unelected de facto government. * While claiming (if only by implication) to be a fiscal conservative, Bush has actually expanded the welfare state. Examples include expansion of Medicare, handouts to farmers, and funding of social initiatives such as “promoting marriageâ€. Again, comparing with Reagan: Reagan’s deficit spending mostly went into defense, which ultimately meant more jobs and more corporate investment, at least in the short term. Bush’s deficit spending is going primarily into entitlements. * Bush seeks to pollute the Constitution with amendments to please his socially-conservative core constituency: banning flag burning and banning gay marriage, for example. This is offensive not only to social liberals and moderates, but also to constitutional conservatives. * Bush’s “faith-based initiatives†erode the separation between church and state. As for the Iraq war – well, Congress gave Bush the go-ahead, so it would be difficult to argue that the war is unconstitutional (for an example of unconstitutional war, consider Reagan’s covert assistance to the Nicaraguan contras in the mid 1980’s). That still leaves the question of whether the war was a good idea; that is, whether it’s justifiable, rather than merely “legalâ€. I think that among most of those Americans who still support the war, there is a perception that somehow Iraq was connected to 9/11 and Al Qaida. If there were strong evidence for such a connection, then the war WOULD be justifiable, regardless of the presence of WMD – as a prophylactic measure, as a security measure, and as just plain good old revenge – even if, as has turned out to be the case, the resulting occupation would be bloody, frustrating and divisive. But I would opine that no such connection exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest socket_toomee Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Seeing as WMD were the main reason for invasion and none have been found, Don't you all feel abused and lied to by the gov't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKDGabe Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Government(s) always lies to and abuses the citizens. I feel like a broken record... POWER CORRUPTS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JKDGabe Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 It's now official, the elections are dishonest. I know of three people (including myself) who voted for Michael A. Peroutka yet the official results show he got no votes in Hamilton county. The same thing happened in several other counties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay1970Z Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Well, it's gonna be fun going to school today, where I've been harassed by the college Democrats for months. They actually set up a "tent city" outside the library where they've been sleeping for about 2 months. They had huge signs saying, "Bush is a murderer", "Be a moron, Vote Bush", etc. Every time I'd walk by the student union there would be about 10-15 "Get out the vote workers" asking me if I was registered to vote and saying I needed to get out there and vote at all costs. When I informed them that I had already voted for Bush by absentee ballot, any number of things happened. They yelled at me, threw things at me, tried to spit on me, and so on. I almost got in a fight with several of them, only in my own physical defense, luckily most of them were the weenie hippie type so no worries there. At least now I can know that its over while they chant, "Every vote counts!". Even if every vote does count, Kerry's chances of winning the election are about as good as the Dolphins winning the Superbowl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted November 3, 2004 Author Share Posted November 3, 2004 Seeing as WMD were the main reason for invasion and none have been found, Don't you all feel abused and lied to by the gov't? No more so then the lying and abuse the Aussie press foisted on you folks trying to defeat Howard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Or the lie perpritrated on them in the process of disarming the populous... Yea, nicely done Down under! Mike 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Beyond the legality' date=' which it was and is, Why don't we all just run right out, stick our heads in the sand, and lets all forget the numerous violations that Hussein's regime repeatedly violated... HAD Saddam allowed the inspectors in to do their jobs, uninterrupted, without the shell games and lies, there would NOT have been an invasion. WE would have seen the pathetic state of their weapons rebuild effort, and the lack of WMD, OR we would have seen the stock piles and the mobile labs with toxic chemicals and illegal contraband... Take your pick of which choice you want to believe, but bottom line is ALL of this should be placed at the feet of Saddam Hussein, and of the governments who stood to gain MUCH revenue in the wake of a lift on the sanctions against Iraq... Germany, Russia, and FRANCE... But no, my little flock, lets all follow down the path of blind stupidity and faith... Right along with all the other liberal rhetoric that abounds in our ever-slanted media... Mike "Sheppard of the flock" Kelly[/quote'] I ask why George W. Bush decided to do it at that time. Why put our military men and women in harms way at that specific time. Many times it was the United States foreign policy that aided Saddam in do some of the things he did. Unfortunately, it is all about money, and has very little do to with the people that actually live there. Our country also has much to gain economically by our invasion. Now, what I see on the media, seen as liberal or conservative, is point trying to be made that there was never a solid, honest reason for entering Iraq. We were fed the WMD thing, which is fine, but there was never an admittance of the mistake of intelligence that I could tell. Then they started saying it was for the humanitarian effort. Why did George Bush, in his 2000 campaign say that he wasn't going fund any outreaching efforsts. Then it was the Al-Quaida connection, which never existed from what I've read. Actually, if I remember correctly, Saddam and Osama are bitter enemies, because of Saddam's lack of religious beliefs. My point is, there is much to learn from all this. Don't mess with governments and there people like the U.S. government did throughout the cold war. Now we have all these problems throughout the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Unfortunately' date=' it is all about money, and has very little do to with the people that actually live there. Our country also has much to gain economically by our invasion. [/quote'] A truly amazing statement given the state of our country today. Oil prices are the highest in history and John Kerry made incredible headway with his 200 billion dollar swan song about the war's cost. Could you please tell me exactly what economic gains we are seeing? Also you do remember we were placing American service members in harms way the entire 12 years they were flying over Iraq to defend the no fly zones? I don't think a week went by that they didn't take at least one pot shot at a coalition aircraft. It was only the quality of our service members and our technology that prevented American deaths in that time. I suppose allowing the international sanctions to cripple the Iraqi economy and further impoverish the Iraqi people was acceptable? What benefit did we derive when Bush convinced the world to forgive Iraq's foreign debts? Wasn't that for the benefit of the Iraqi people? Or did we somehow make money off that too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil1934 Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Kofi Annan stated the war was probably illegal. But if it's not pursued, it really doesn't matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Kofi Annan stated the war was probably illegal. But if it's not pursued, it really doesn't matter. That's OK. Boner Boy will have that job soon so then it will be legal again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted November 3, 2004 Author Share Posted November 3, 2004 Kofi Annan stated the war was probably illegal. Kofi "I got millions from the Iraqi Oil for Food program" Annan declaring something is "probably illegal" is like Tony Soprano saying "crime doesn't pay." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil1934 Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Kofi "I got millions from the Iraqi Oil for Food program" Annan declaring something is "probably illegal" is like Tony Soprano saying "crime doesn't pay. And that's why I say it doesn't matter if no one pursues it. As to Boner Boy wanting U.N Secretary General, I believe their constitution prohibits an American from holding that position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 As to Boner Boy wanting U.N Secretary General, I believe their constitution prohibits an American from holding that position. He will claim he is Canadian. No one will ever know. After all, people like Linda Ronstadt think Micheal Moore is a great American. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil1934 Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Maybe he could just put in a Canadian as his puppet, you know, like Hamid Karzai. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moridin Posted November 3, 2004 Share Posted November 3, 2004 Unfortunately' date=' it is all about money, and has very little do to with the people that actually live there. Our country also has much to gain economically by our invasion. [/quote'] A truly amazing statement given the state of our country today. Oil prices are the highest in history and John Kerry made incredible headway with his 200 billion dollar swan song about the war's cost. Could you please tell me exactly what economic gains we are seeing? Also you do remember we were placing American service members in harms way the entire 12 years they were flying over Iraq to defend the no fly zones? I don't think a week went by that they didn't take at least one pot shot at a coalition aircraft. It was only the quality of our service members and our technology that prevented American deaths in that time. I suppose allowing the international sanctions to cripple the Iraqi economy and further impoverish the Iraqi people was acceptable? What benefit did we derive when Bush convinced the world to forgive Iraq's foreign debts? Wasn't that for the benefit of the Iraqi people? Or did we somehow make money off that too? I agree, the sanctions were one of the worst things ever to happen to the Iraqi people. It did nothing to those in power and destroyed how everyone else lived. Honestly, I'm not really sure about Saddam invading Kuwait at that time. Basically, as I understand it, it was a British colony made so they could make money off the oil and not the Iraqis. In that respect, I could really care less. Now, when it comes to another leader, doing Hitler type things (like taking over neighboring countries), that gets me worried. Now, when I say it all comes down to making money, I mean the long run. What about all the American companies over there now getting contract after contract to rebuild the country. In that respect, its only going to get better. As soon as Iraq is running itself and safe, say hello to McDonald's, Burger King, Starbucks, MTV, the iPod, etc... The real question is, will oil prices come down if, and when Iraq becomes sovereign again? The other part of "It all comes down to money," was not solely directed at America. The other countries mentioned prior to this post were in a position to make a huge amount of money from the Iraqi sanctions being lifted. Having a huge hand in how Iraq is rebuilt will help dictate whether or not our country will gain by it. I'm not saying, we, the everyday people will, but those in positions to place get business rolling in Iraq will. Unfortunately, my generation (those that are between 10 and 25 I think) will be paying for this for the rest of our lives. When it all boils down to it, I believe the world runs on money. As much as I would love to believe that the people that run many of these countries give a damn about any citizen of a foreign place, I can't do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Guess I just don't agree with the money motive. In the short run, the contracts are being paid with our money anyway (at least a good chunk of it). Not to mention American lives. In the long run, that country is still going to hate us. Eventually they will get on their feet and start chanting Death to America again. Guess one could argue that we will turn them into a puppet state. But if our current relationship with Germany is any guide I wouldn't bank on that. People will always do busines with us because money talks and we have a lot of it. But you don't have to agree with someone or even like them to want to make money off them. Let's face it. I would be suprised if we regain even a portion of our investment in this struggle. All we will have to comfort us is the idea that we at least tried to do the right thing. And given the current divide in our country it is not much to hang our hats on, now is it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest socket_toomee Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 Or the lie perpritrated on them in the process of disarming the populous Do you mean the fact it is illegal for most people to own guns? Because last time i checked we had barely passed the 100 gun related murders in a year. How many thousand is America up to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted November 4, 2004 Author Share Posted November 4, 2004 Well, I don't want to turn this thread into a gun control discussion, but you need to check some of the research produced in your own country: http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2002/facts_and_figures_2002.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bastaad525 Posted November 4, 2004 Share Posted November 4, 2004 You know... I think I should maybe try to spread this around a bit more... some stuff here that lots of people really should read and be aware of. http://www.angelfire.com/co/COMMONSENSE/armageddon.html If you read this, everything happening in Iraq will make sense in a whole new way, it's not about money or oil, but something a LOT scarier. I dare anyone to read that webpage and say at least 3/4 of what's on there doesn't make sense. Very scary stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.