280zx Short throw Shifter?

[JMortensen]

Let me say that I feel that if my shifter had less of a throw I think it would actually be a bad thing. I think there is something of a balancing act, between how short the shifter is and how short the throw is. I like the shifter fairly short. I haven't seen a stock 5 speed shifter in a long time, but I seem to think mine is about 3" shorter than the stock one. Basically the shift knob starts about an inch or two over the top of the boot.

 

If you want the shifter the stock length then I can see that making the throw even shorter than what I have might be beneficial. I'm not the type of guy who breaks shifters and all that (never understood who did), but I can say from my years of autox and track experience that I feel that the amount of pressure needed to shift from one gear to the next is NOT excessive by any stretch of the imagination. I can also say that the throw isn't just "noticeably decreased", it's WAY shorter. Maybe what we need here is a measurement of how short the throws are, but as I said before, I literally don't think I'd want the throw any shorter than it is right now.

 

I'm hoping that tec280zx will pipe up again since he actually has direct experience with this currently. Tony, I think you know that we're normally on the same page. On this one I couldn't disagree with you more. I think the MSA short shift kit is a complete waste of money. Not that it really matters. Bottom line is if I recognize your MSA shifter I'll probably laugh to myself, and if you see my truck shifter you'll probably laugh to yourself.

 

Just to restate the case though--the truck shifter fits right in, the stick can be bent to the appropriate shape easily in a press, it costs $5, and it works with every type of 5 speed that I've seen it tried on (which is everything NA). If it isn't the "ultimate" short shifter that's fine. It's a hell of an improvement over stock and I wouldn't want mine any more "ultimate" than what it is with the stick at it's current length.

[technicalninja]

I have modified 2 shifters now using the method I posted earlier on thread and one of the trannys went into a customers car that had the MSA short shift kit which is now on my 78. The MSA kit increased length to section below pivot by 25MM and shortened the upper section by 10MM and although it is a nice part I believe the change in pattern is too much. It did increase the force required to shift and even has a very heavy knob to help this out. The problem I find most annoying is I sometimes think the shifter is in 3rd when it is actually in 4th and it is slightly disorienting to have to change directions that you were moving your hand in. I haven't had it in the car long and will probably get used to it but it sort of wierd.

The two shifters I modified I added 10MM to lower section and did not change upper section at all and although they definitely shortened the shift pattern I felt it was not enough. the next time I do one I will add 15-18MM to lower section and leave upper section alone. this mod requires the long ear variety of the shifter towers (82-83ZX trans).

I will be looking out for a truck shifter as this change sounds dirt simple and by shortening the upper section it may well shorten the pattern up enough.

One of my customers had an extremely shortened 240 shifter in which most of the upper section was removed and nothing was done to the lower section at all. I hated this set up, you almost had to reach down inside the console hole to reach the shifter.

The MSA shifter kit required modification the first time it was installed as the side plates would not tighten up and it had quite a bit of slop in it between the side plates and the shift tower on the tranny. After modification the side plates had to be carefully alined during tightening procedure.

Both the truck shifter and my mod do not have this problem as nothing is added to the shift towers.

[Tony D]

JM, I won't buy the MSA Shifter for the reasons stated above. Steve Christensen mentioned using the truck shifter "as an interim step" between stock and what he produced. I probably should have mentioned that, but I didn't talk to him to refresh myself on his story till later last evening.

Yes, the truck ieda will shorten the throw, and you can see an improvement, but compare apples to apples: cut the shifter for the handle at the same height from the pivot point as the stock handle to determine actual "shift legnth decreased".

 

If you work it out or even draw it out on paper, you can see for every say .1" of pivot to end legnth you remove south of the pivot, you shorten the linear distance of shifter throw "X" amount. This does come at a increased effort tradeoff, but we are talking ounces here, in reality---it takes a ounce pull scale to check this stuff. This is given long end legnth being the same.

 

Now, if you take the long end of the lever and start shortening it, you will see the arc it travel through is ALSO reduced, but the comparitive effort (again ounces here!) to gain the same reduction in shift legnth will result in a larger effort than the decrease on the short end.

 

Steve designed his short throw shifter to be the same assembled height (if not a bit taller!) for wheel to shifter convienience, without the additional effort required when cutting down the long end of the lever. While your throws may be the same, (again ounces here!!!) the effort to throw the lever will likely be measurably higher than the SMC unit.

 

But Agreed, Steve did say the truck shifter "is a good in between step, but people are too lazy to cut down the lever much less install new bushings!" And at that point the conversation digressed into the maladies of manning the phones and explaining this kind of stuff to non technical people when he worked at Nissan Motorsports (LOL).

 

As Technical Ninja has noted, he is approaching the "magic 25mm" elongation of the lower section. Half an inch was not enough (sound familiar?) My numbers are vague because though Steve mentioned them in conversation once a long time ago, I don't remember them, I was thinking 2", maybe it was one inch.... Anyway, it looks like the number below the pivot is subject to a maximum of 25mm elongation (what would the total distance be from pivot to cup end then?) and then upper lever shortening seems limited to stock and maybe 10mm shorter.

 

What may be a better way for the discussion to progress since Technical Ninja posted real numbers if for us to compile the differing legnths of the rods used on short and long pivot ends, and list them here. We know the stock shifter rods in the transmission require a "linear movement of Xmm" to go from N to any given gear up or down, and from that it is a very simple geometric diagram to figure out actual "Human Interface Linear ACtion" required on the long end of the stick.

 

Also, as an aside, Technical Ninja is very astute, Steve did mention that in order to get the right "feel" a heavier knob was used!

 

So whatsay we standardize our conversation here, and start dealing with pivot to end legnths, and from there it's all a matter of simple math (and it also gives people something to measure with calipers when out in the junkyard!)

[JMortensen]

Measurements would be preferred to "what you did doesn't work" for sure. I've tried all kinds of shifter locations, what I have now is what I like best. Tried it right up next to the steering wheel (again with a truck shifter, but this time maybe 4 inches longer than stock and RIGHT next to the wheel) in a friend's car and just couldn't get used to it. Mine is not "reach into the console to shift" short, it's comfortable and it is where I want it.

 

I don't doubt that 25mm increase from the pivot to the ball makes the throw shorter yet, but again, that would be too short for me. Way to short if I cut down the shifter. Techninja points out that he sometimes can't tell if he's in 3rd or 4th. That is too short. There is such a thing.

 

When I get out to the garage again I'll stick the shifter in the trans and take a measurement of how far the throw is. That seems to me to be the important measurement. Get the stick where you want it then get the throw to the appropriate length. 10mm, 15mm, 25mm doesn't mean dick. Comfortable for the driver is what it is all about.

[Gollum]

25MM south vs 10MM south?!?! If mine is 10MM longer than I don't understand HOW you could ever get a longer shifter down in there. Mine HITS when I put it in. It can't go any farther down. Whereas the stock shifter you put it in then you have to raise it a good 1/2 inch or so to get it to the pivot point. THAT'S where the shorter shift is coming from. If there's a way to get the shifter down even farther I'd like to know how.

 

I personlly like really short shifts, wich is why my first fitting of the truck shifter dissapointed me. I didn't want to have to resort to a shoter stick to get a short through. I was actually hoping the through would be short enough for me to angle the shifter closer to me, thus adding an inch or so the the length of the shifter above the pivot point.

 

When I do mine I'll probly end up cutting the shifter about an inch shorter than the stock one, and angling it back a bit.

[JMortensen]

Gollum I believe you have to drill a new pivot hole higher than the original to use the really short shifter.

[technicalninja]

Yes you do have to drill a new pivot hole and I have found 3 different styles of tower lengths (shift lever ears that pin fits through). The 77-79 trannys had the short ears which cannot be redrilled but are the ones that work with the MSA short shift kit (at least the kit that I have now). the 80-81 trannys had the medium length ears which can accept a 10 mm higher hole, and the 82-83 style which has very long ears and could accept 20 + increase. If you were very-very steady you might be able to drill it on the tranny (tranny will have to be removed from car). The ones I have done were during complete tranny overhauls and the shift tower was removed from tailshaft housing and drilled with a good drill press. Pin fit was as tight as the factory hole. The mod doesn't cost much but "some assembly is required" and I don't think I would remove and dissemble tranny JUST for this mod. awful lot of work (by itself) for the change.

 

Jon- I included my measurements to clarify what I thought was not enough - 10 mm and too much - 25 mm. Yes - there is a thing as to much and for me I think anything over 20 mm will fall into that catagory. This was to help readers visualize the difference and maybe give a starting point for someone else doing the mod. The distance between the pin and cup does mean dick as it controls the total movement in degrees between far ends of the throw. Shortening the upper section does nothing to this ratio although it will affect travel of the knob.

 

The location of the pin in the ears does not change the shift ratio at all and can be anywhere (vertically) that allows the lever to not bottom out against the housing (lever straight up and down) and keeps the tip/nylon cup in the inner rod at the far ends of the travel. I mearly drilled my holes the exact same distance higher that I added to the lower section of the lever. Everything fit fine that way.

 

Although I don't have one (yet!) I would bet that the truck shifter is not more than 10 mm longer that the stock 240/280 unit and IMO 10mm is not enough. I expect that I will have to shorten the upper length to satisfy me.

There are definite benefits to using the truck shifter. Done in car and only requires basic tools. No modifications to tranny at all. No welding. Should be cheap as long as you can find a early truck. I have been watching for one for 6 months now. Just like 510s and 240s they appear to be rare now days.

 

Different ways to skin the cat for different people. When I did my first mod I was not aware that a longer shifter which would fit using stock pivot hole was available or I would have tried it first. Due to this site and Jon I have been educated that an easier way does exist. I'm just not sure if it will be a large enough reduction for me.

 

I went out and measured total travel between far ends (3-4) on the MSA kit 2.5 inches. I didn't like the weight of the knob but it sure feels nice to grip. Their kit appeared to be a real Nissan shift lever and Nissan knob (can't imagine what its original application was as I have never seen anything even close to it) and the custom ear extenders which are not a Nissan part.

I did check if the 25mm longer MSA shifter would fit the longest ear shift tower and it will not. If you want the 25mm addition you will have to use some kind of extension on the ears.

[rudypoochris]

Ok can someone set me straight on the short throw shifter efforts. A short throw shifter always takes more force to move then a normal throw shifter, right? I think that is correct and I think I can calculate it instead of pretending we know what the efforts will be like. Lemme try. The dimensions of the shifter are just an example not factual.

 

Stock shifter - Assuming 2" below center of pivot and 10" above:

 

Mechanical advantage = 10"/2" = 5:1

 

Short throw shifter - Assuming 3" below center of pivot and 9" above:

 

Mechanical advantage = 9"/3" = 3:1

 

Short throw shifter takes 5/3 times more effort to get a gear, which would be 1.67 times more.

 

Is that right? And the throw would be 60% (3"/5" = .6) of the original distance. Can someone confirm this or dissprove this, and sorry if this is a hijack.

[JMortensen]

Different ways to skin the cat for different people. When I did my first mod I was not aware that a longer shifter which would fit using stock pivot hole was available or I would have tried it first. Due to this site and Jon I have been educated that an easier way does exist. I'm just not sure if it will be a large enough reduction for me.

This is a fair statement, and I apologize if I got a little sensitive there everybody, but I had another guy PM'ing me saying the same thing Tony said, which is basically that the shifter I used doesn't do anything. I know from years of experience that this is absolutely not true. If you want the shifter to be really long then I agree that you might want a shorter shift than the truck shifter provides. But it is designed to provide a reasonable throw on a 2' long shifter, so you have to realize that it is going to be significantly shorter than stock on a stock length shifter.

[tec280zx]

No doubt the one Steve made is a much shorter throw, but at the end of the day I couldn't be more happier with my truck shifter. Also, I cut it to the same height as my stock one, so I know thats not the cause of the shorter throw. Sometimes the "in between step" is better, considering the cost.

[JMortensen]

I still think there's something else going on. It looks as though any 4 speed shifter is the same length as the truck shifter or very close. I'm having Matman send me one so I can compare directly to the truck shifter, so I'll have a direct comparison soon.

 

NOBODY thinks the stock 4 speed has a short shift though. The throw is LONG. So my hypothesis is that the gears in the 4 speed are farther apart than the gears in the 5 speed they both fit in the same length case, makes sense to me that they had to pack em in a little tighter in the 5 speed. So when you put the 4 speed shifter in the 5 speed, you get a shorter shift as a result. I certainly wouldn't tout that my 5 speed "now shifts like the stock 4 speed".

 

So if that's the case then the 25mm longer shifter might actually be designed for the 4 speed, which would make sense, since the idea is that it requires a longer shifter to shift nicely, and most race Zs are ITS 240s which require the 4 speed. So maybe it does work nicely in the 4 speed (?).

 

The other weird thing is that some people here have had trouble with the 4 speed shifter in the 5 speed, but I know at least 2 people who used the truck shifter in the early 5 speed for years. It's possible that the truck shifter might be just 1mm shorter than the 4 speed shifter or something. I'll let you all know when I make a direct comparison of the two.

[Tony D]

Bah! I have a five speed from an 83 N/A Zx taken apart on the back porch right now (long ear) along with a four speed from a 74 260Z. Aside from the 260 having much beefier steel shift forks and the ZX having cheap diecast units they look identical. I will measure the shift fork throws tomorrow morning, and try to measure the total throw of the socketed part inside the shift extension.

The five speed is a throwaway, so I can drill a hole in the end and measure with my digital dial caliper for some accurate information.

 

This is what I was getting at earlier: if we know the throw on the shift fork, and we know the height from the ball centre to pivot point, as well as shift lever legnth above the pivot cnter, we can EASILY calculate by either drawing it out, or doing the triangle equations for the actual arc required for different combinations.

 

If it wasn't 930 already, I'd do it tonight!

 

And before anyone asks, because the bellhousings were removed to be machined for the KA24 countershaft bearing and shift rod diameters for conversions of 240SX trannies.

 

Wait with bacon breath, guys, the measurements from early four speed and late five speed are coming in about 12 hours. I have an early five speed intact in the back shed, and can measure that one if it looks different when I do a cursory test after measuring the first two.

 

This is what it's about, don't get mad! Lets get it all out there and look for the EMPIRICAL evidence (like some above have helped with) down for others to separate the world of subjective opinion, engineering facts, and outright B.S. spewed by some.

 

Everybody wins!

[Darrel]

I added pics to my gallery showing 4 spd trans, early 5 spd and a late 5 spd along with shifters.

 

jmortensen sent me a couple of his pics I have included.

 

I put a 4 spd shifter in a late 5 spd on the bench. The shifter would go in when in neutral, but if it was in gear the pin would not line up. After I put it in while in neutral I could shift but, the shifter would hit the top of the shift rod cut out. You can see the mark on the truck shifter pic jmortensen supplied. My 4 spd shifter had the same mark but not as pronounced since i only had it in to check how it shifts.

 

I plan on doing the mod technicalninja has discussed with the late 5 spd. Lengthening the bottom portion of a shifter the same amount I drill the new pivot hole higher.

 

my gallery for trans pics and shifters.

 

http://album.hybridz.org/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=8318

[JMortensen]

Just for the record those pics came from tec280zx.

[JMortensen]

Specs on my truck shifter are as follows:

2" long from the center of the pivot to the bottom of the ball

7" tall from the center of the pivot to the top of the threads for the knob, probably 7.5" to the top of the knob.

Throw is 2" from gear to neutral or 4" from first to 2nd.

 

EDIT- that "notch" in the shifter that Darrel pointed out is MUCH larger and more pronounced on my shifter. Don't know if that wore in that way or if it was always that way.

 

EDIT 2- If it makes a difference I'm using an 80 ZX 5 speed.

[Tony D]

Sorry I took so long to respond on the shift detent throws:

 

For the original "B" Box Four Speed, the linear distance of the fork throw from "N" to 1st and 3rd gears is 10mm. From "N" to 2nd and 4th gears the throw is 10mm. So total 1 to 2 is a 20mm throw. This was measured down inside the shifter extension housing.

 

For the Early "B" Box Five Speed, the linear distance of the fork throw from "N" to 1st, 3rd, and 5th gears is 10mm. From "N" to 2nd and 4th gears the throw is 10mm. So total 1 to 2 is a 20mm linear throw.

 

For the Late "B" Box Five Speed (ZX Long Ear), the linear distance of the fork throw from "N" to 1st, 3rd, and 5th gears is 10mm. From "N" to 2nd and 4th gears the throw is 10mm. So total 1 to 2 is a 20mm throw.

 

So basically the throws are the same internally in the transmission, regardless if they are four speed or five speed, early or late. The hole the little plastic cup goes into is VERY deep, when the pivot cup is bottomed in that hole it can accomodate about 12mm on top of it, so if one were to move the pivot up, and lengthen the short end of the shifter one could have a fairly deep arc and still not bottom out.

 

With these numbers, and with what you guys have just posted regarding the shifter pivot points, we can easily draw out the diagram of the linkage and determine what will work with what, and how long different legnth bottom sections will affect the upper linkage linear arc throw between gears.

 

The rod I was using, BTW, was almost bottomed in the hole on all the transmissions I was measuring when the pivot pin was installed. I think it was out of a ZX, as it was really straight.

 

There you have it!

[JMortensen]

That is really surprising. Maybe someone with a stock 4 speed and a stock 5 speed shifter will be nice enough to measure the throw at the end of the shifter for us. Why the heck would Nissan go through the expense of redesigning the shifter and pivot for a longer throw on the 5 speed? That don't make no sense...

[Darrel]

on a stock 5 spd zx shifter from neutral I get 2.375", so overall on the stock zx 5 spd, 1-2 4.75".

 

These measurements were taken at the end of the shifter. with no knob.

 

so bottom throw of 20mm made 4.75" top throw 1-2 shift.

 

On a stock 240z 4 spd shifter from neutral is 2.75" making the overall throw 1-2 is 5.5".

[JMortensen]

Confused now.

 

Why would the 5 speed shifter have a 3/4" shorter throw than the 4 speed? According to the pic Darrel posted, the sticks look damn near identical in height, and we all know that the distance from the pivot to the ball is shorter than the 4 speed. So what gives?

 

This does say one thing for my solution. Cut down like it is it has a 37% shorter shift than a stock 4 speed. That at least is some vindication for the short throw aspect of what I'm running. It is more than just "noticeable".

 

This difference in the throw between 4 speed and 5 speed makes me think we're missing another variable here. We already checked the throw of the shift rails, then you just have the pivot to the bottom, and the length from the pivot to the top. What else is there???

[Darrel]

jon, clear your private message box is full