Mikelly Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 You guys might want to think about a few items for your LS1 powerplants... http://photos.yahoo.com/dat74z go into the vette folder... Check the damage to the engine and then see the port I mention with text. That port is where you would install a Canton port adapter. That port feeds the main oil galley for the motor and is where Dave Farmer and others racing Vettes in Speed World Challenge are plumbing theirs. The part to plumb an accusump in at this location is 8M16C8OMXS located Here: http://www.parker.com/tfd/cat/pdffiles/C-Triple-Lok.pdf I'll probably use the Accusump I have slated for the Z in the Vette and buy a bigger unit for the Zcar. Check out the pics of the damage to the motor... pretty "explosive", No? Mike Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbk240z Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Wow, that must have made some serious noise when it let go. Good luck getting it going again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 7, 2005 Author Share Posted August 7, 2005 There is a video link of it posted in the Motorsport section... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synlubes Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Pix #3 (in your Vette album) is pretty cool. Did you have help getting that out of the car? That does not look like a "engine out" in 30 min job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 8, 2005 Author Share Posted August 8, 2005 I had Zero help and it took about 6 hours total. Thanks god for my shop, lift and tools! Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbc3 Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Wow, that's some damage. Have you gotten inside the motor yet? It'll be real interesting to see what else is damaged. Jody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 8, 2005 Author Share Posted August 8, 2005 I dropped the oil pan and took off the heads and that is as far as I went. I know the cam is wiped, the crank is trashed and every cylinder has gouges in it. I'm gonna go ahead and finish the tear down so I can recycle the block at the local recycler, but otherwise the accesories, oil pan, intake and heads are all I'm guessing that survived. It is a MESS in there... The amount of debris in the oil pan was over an inch deep in spots. I was hoping to be able to rotate the crank once I got the pan and all the broken "stuff" out of the way, but the motor still won't rotate. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SleeperZ Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevej Posted August 8, 2005 Share Posted August 8, 2005 Hey Mike, quick question. I just plumbed to 3 qt accusump into the M16 hole where the stock OP sender was at the back of the motor on top, used aeroquip fitting to -10. Think I should relocate it? It'll get oil through there but not as fast and as direct as to the galley. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 9, 2005 Author Share Posted August 9, 2005 BAsed on what I'm told, if you plumb it to the port I show in the pics located in the link above, that is the most direct and best location. Anything else isn't gonna be as immediate and won't be nearly as effective. Steve, Where did you get your fitting from? I'm trying to source one today. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevej Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 Both Jegs and Summit had them but they're both straight. summit search on '16mm x 1.5 plumbing' Summit has them up to -12 in the 16x1.5. Jegs http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=389976&prmenbr=361 I can't get to the galley port without relocating the alternator, if I remember correctly the alternator isn't on that spot on the vette so you probably have a better shot at using it. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted August 9, 2005 Share Posted August 9, 2005 You LS1 guys have to remember, the LS1 is a stock engine, it is not bullet proof to race every day or hammer on everytime you drive it. The racing C5R Vettes had 427 LS1's that were built especially for racing with HD blocks part #12480030, special cnc machined heads with 11 degree valve angle part #12480005, billet steel 3.985 stroke cranks, upgraded rod bolts, they had a lower redline rpm and even then they are just like anything else mechanical, it'll fail too. I've seen about a dozen LS1's blow up just like mikes, and always the same, window the block. If you want a durable LS1 that you can hammer every day, invest in an aftermarket crank, rods, pistons and complete valve train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Got them, and then some... I hope to not deal with this issue again! LS1s starve for oil...Can't stress it enough. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 My understanding of the LS1 problems when they first came out in the 90's was that they had too much windage, lacked sufficient oil drainback as a result and wouldn't supply oil under sustained lateral g's due to air entrainment in the oil. Is that correct? While being a fine engine, they have inherent design problems for a racing platform that are not found in earlier versions of the SBC. One solution would be a dry sump system which is cheap in comparison to the cost of engines with all that and more as far as parts go. I applaud you fellows that chase the latest technology and make it work, I'm old skool so I'll stick with what I know that works and try to learn from you cutting edge guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Well this little experience has made me re-think ditching my old school 383 stroker in the Zcar project. Dr. Hunt, You pretty much captured the issues the LS1 suffered. The LS6 is not much better. They are still suffering from most of the same problems. I believe this is the exact reason a drysump ended up on the newest Corvette. Whoever ends up buying my 99 C5 Corvette will have a car that has none of these issues, and will have a car more capable than most can use. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 In looking at the inside of the LS1 the cylinder liners extend down into the pan area and the pan is real short as well, does anyone make a different pan that is deeper for the guys that want to run wet sump or is that a custom job? I didn't know that the new vettes had a dry sump system, but I'll bet your right about chevy fixing the problem that way. Dry sump has always been the preferred method of oiling all engines when it really counts, but the cost associated with that is really expensive comparted to wet sump. The z's don't have alot of room for all that and it seems that the cost of modding these cars is high already, but with the cost of obtaining an LS1 plus the cost of install, another $1500 for even a 3 stage dry sump system seems cheap enough given all you guy's hard knocks lessons in the LS1 realm. I'm not familiar with the internal configuration of the LS1's, so where would be a scavange point for a dry sump system on a LS1 to capture the top end oil returning to the pan? Would it be in the lifter valley like the sbc? If so, then an access entrance would have to come in from the block somewhere I'd guess since the intake is a composite structure. On sprint cars and late models we always use dry sump systems, I've used several used systems that I've gotten off ebay. You can buy replacement stages for pumps relatively cheap, if they are not serviceable, plus the pressure adjustment is on the pump outside the engine so you can adjust oil pressure to whatever level you choose relatively easily. Placement of the oil reservoir would be the biggest challenge in a z. I've never been much of a fan of oil accumulators for the simple reason that contaminants in the oil tend to separate out of the oil and collect in the bottom of the accumulator. Specific attention has to be paid to contaminants and for gas engines oil analysis was helpfull. Alcohol engines always have moisture in the oil and that would separate out in the accumulator as well, so every 2-3 weeks, we'd take off the whole oiling system and flush it. The accumulator is a pain in the river to flush properly. I damaged an engine one time due to junk in an accumulator getting stuck in the oil ring and grooving a cylinder. Just my $.02 worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaleMX Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 Rod bolts are a bad weak point on LS1's Gotta keep the rev's down below 6500 unless you upgrade the rod bolts. And FWIW lots of folks running LS1's run a quart high on oil to keep it fed. The crank is way out of the pan so windage is not a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 FWIW the ads for the LS1/2 on the new GTO's brag endlessly about the new oil pan being extensively baffled. Speaking of baffled, Mike had me just about convinced that the cheapest way to a 400++ HP STREETABLE engine is to pick up an LS1 and cam it. That kind of HP in an LT1 or first gen SBC is not cheap and usually involves a good sized (i.e. not overly steetable) cam. From what I have read in car mags an LS1 can be driven to 500 HP with a cam that produces only a slight lope in the idle. Sounded perfect for what I want. Obviously losing oil pressure is fatal to an engine, but blasting a hole through the block looks like the problem runs deeper than just the oiling system. I could see siezed bearings, wiped cams and scored cylinders, but "windowing" the block? Is an improved oiling system really the answer, or does getting 500 reliable HP also require a new bottom end? Considering the higher price of used LS1's, which would be cheaper in the end. An LS1 with a $1500 oiling upgrade and $$$ bottom end, or would it be cheaper to get an LT1 with a set of AFR heads and forged internals? Maybe overreacting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted August 10, 2005 Author Share Posted August 10, 2005 Well let me stave off those fears by saying that all the known failures I'm aware of are in road race "extend High RPM" periods of use at higher than normal G loads. In about 95% of the applications here, I don't see it as a problem. But putting a drysump in line wouldn't be a bad idea either... I'm still 100% convinced this is a better motor than the 1st or 2nd Gen SBC. And remember, Mine did have 92K miles on it when I bought the car. I have no knowledge of its previous maintenance or care. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted August 10, 2005 Share Posted August 10, 2005 I think the rods are supposed to be the strongest ones ever used in a sbc, I may be wrong. 6500 is alot of rpm to live at daily with a stock LS1 or any other engine for that matter. The LS1 is supposed to support 500HP easily with the right cam, however if the pistons are not forged units it's gambling at best over 6K rpm. The LS1 has alot lighter pistons than the LT1 or sbc, but they lack the steel reinforcement of earlier design cast pistons due to design changes that control expansion of the piston. I gues in essence what I'm saying is the IMO they are not as durable a piston. Windage isn't necessarily in the pan but above the oil level causing air entrainment and inhibiting oil drainback from the top end and what oil does drain back has been whipped to a frenzy. It can only be truly overcome with a dry sump system as it removes the oil and has a separate oil reservoir for additional volume and air releases at that point. Some success is attributed to deeper pans but the cure all is dry sump. In NASCAR they run 22 quart reserviors and I've seen a 30quart on some cars for some tracks. The LT1 or gen 1 sbc can get 400HP from good heads and mild hydraulic roller cam. LS1's use .470 lift hydraulic roller cams with the 4-7 firing order swap, but the heads flow very well. Try a cam like that in DD2000 and see what comes up. The 4-7 swap is supposed to net about 20HP gains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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