Ford gets it wrong... AGAIN!!!

[Mikelly]

So I got my handy dandy newest edition of Road and Track magazine and the new Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 is on the cover. :party: So I take it to the family library and flip to the article and start reading... 475HP 475#ft of Torque "approximately" 4000 pounds WTF???

 

Edit: the coupe will come in about 150# less, at STILL Over 3800#!

 

SO I start reading the stats and see that it is cracking off 12.9 second 1/4 times and 0-60 is 4.5 Seconds for this lovely little porker that is gonna set you back for an estimated $44K.

 

Did someone at Ford R&D start handing out brown tar heroin, spoons, matches and syringes at lunch time?

 

Anyone care to name how many other cars can duplicate those stats with less HP and for less money NEW off the showroom floor? How Many will come withing 1 second of the 1/4 time for $10K less?

 

Edit: Forgot to mention that of course the magazine LOVED it... Advertising dollarts having nothing to do with their impression or favorable rating...

Mike

[Guest HBZ81]

a lot of the "new" muscle cars with "geat" hp weigh as much as the titanic. that new shelby stang, the new gto, the new charger... it's rediculous

[EZ-E]

Mine isnt new off the showroom floor but so far its only cost me a little bit more then 5k for the whole car and what Ive done and I know it does the quarter mile in that time.

[MusPuppis]

"approximately" 4000 pounds WTF???

 

Edit: the coupe will come in about 150# less, at STILL Over 3800#!

Are you kidding? Damnit to hell. I like the new Mustangs.. but close to or in excess of 4000pds? Thats dry weight w.o a driver as well?

 

Dodge is doing the same thing. Great power ratings with a car so massive it needs em to get by. I think its some by product of the american love for "big" crap. Maybe some bizarre throw-back to the old, larger muscle cars - which in many cases werent *that* large or heavy. They werent light weights, but just how big many were has been exagerated.

 

Those performance numbers are dismal given the claimed power and torque of the car. I'd love to see an unbiased opinion of the damn thing.. and I want someone to get it on a road track and not just a dragstrip =/

[rudypoochris]

I couldn't even find Ford's curb weights on the site for the stang's. I heard it is between 3500 and 3750

[Z-TARD]

I'd imagine that a few clay pots full of thermite placed in the right location would shave some weight off of that thing.......

[660Z]

I believe it`s the power to weight ratio the engineers have to go by in order to make the safety aspect of the goverment happy.

 

Have you read about the concept Bugetti car? 254mph governed top speed. 0-60 in 2.4 sec. 1000 HP 16 cyl (I believe) w/ 4 turbos and a 7 speed tranny. That thing is a heavy porker!!!!

From what I`ve read the power of that thing is unreal and puts everything else to shame!!! 254mph is the limit if the tires, know one knows the true top speed.

 

Mark

[Mikelly]

I'm not buying that... You see the weights on the viper and vette? The M3 Bimmer is a 4 seater sedan and it still weighs in at under 3500#... I don't understand why Ford used the triton V8 and blower setup... All that weight right on the front of the car...

 

Mike

[Gollum]

"approximately" 4000 pounds

 

 

 

This was my biggest fear when the new stangs hit production. All previous performance stangs have hovered around the 3k mark, with the last gen 03 04 cobras under 3500. But those 03 cobras were designed to be confortable also. Now, the 01 cobra R, THAT was a light car. Didn't even come with a standard radio. Still the best autox stang ever built.

 

But, I think what's wrong with this new GT500 is all in the name. I think if SVT was designing a cobra it would be a different story. Maybe SVT is just sabotaging the GT500, so thier new cobra 2-3 years from now will destroy the GT500. Just specualtion though.

 

Now seriously, who has sat in the new mustang? Who was actually cofortable? Now how tall are you? Cuz I'm just under 6' and I felt too tall for the vehicle. The shifter placement is was too close (ford trying to satisfy the mustangs pain complaint by asian reviews "shifters too far away") the steering wheel doesn't have much adjustment. The whole car just didn't fit me. And honestly, ford needs to take out the back seats in any performance model, those darn things are just there for looks and we all know it.

 

I still suspect to see much better to come from SVT with the next stang to wear thier badge. But they'll have to do some work to the seat to make me happy.

 

End note: So when's the next stang body style coming out? One that I can actually fit in... (does that add up? A 4000lb vehicle I can't fit in?)

[randy 77zt]

new mustang-front struts make creaking noise when turning-tsb for that.gas tanks wont fill-tsb and new tank for that.rear suspension bump stops close to axle-will be a pain to lower with proper suspension travel.all late model cars are heavy-subaru sti supposed to be 3300+ lbs.i know why mike kelly has a vette-good power to weight ratio.

[Guest bastaad525]

I may be biased *wink* but I think the SRT-4 was the closest thing to a real musclecar that has come out in recent years. Take your common, lowly grocery getter car, stick a hi-po motor, suspension and brake setup in it, and sell it for an insanely low price.

 

- Estimated 260-270 hp (yes yes factory claims 230 hp but most people get 220-230 AT THE WHEELS)

 

- 2800-2900lb curb weight

 

- 0-60 in less than 6 seconds, 1/4 mile in high 13's

 

- Quaife LSD

 

- roughly $20,000 ($21,xxx to be exact, though MANY people have bullied dealerships into letting them go for sub $20k)

 

- cheap and easy to get gobs of performance out of it, lots of factory made upgrades available

 

Yeah yeah so it's wrong wheel drive... if you don't live at an auto X or road course you won't really notice. It's a real shame they only made them for three years. I know most people consider that V8 and rear wheel drive are two of the greatest parts of the musclecar equation... but for them, as you guys have already pointed out, they are getting kinda screwed. Sure there are lots of hi-po V8 RWD cars out nowadays, but as was said, they are usually very heavy and don't deliver the kind of performance their HP numbers promise, and at far too great a cost.

 

All I know is I'm glad I got mine while I still had the chance. It's been nothing but grins during my short ownership of it. Even if I could have afforded it, I would not even consider buying something like that Shelby Mustang for $40+ k, and this is coming from a guy who loves Mustangs.

[rudypoochris]

I know most people consider that V8 and rear wheel drive are two of the greatest parts of the musclecar equation... but for them, as you guys have already pointed out, they are getting kinda screwed.

 

Yep they are kind of getting screwed but the mustang gt still makes it to 60 in 5.1, is rwd, and heavy. So i don't think people are getting screwed that bad until this 4000 lb beast comes out.

[Guest bastaad525]

nah the new GT is nice, no doubt. It's quick, and reasonably priced. It hangs well against (what I consider) it's direct competition, the 350z, Evo and STi... well... almost. I still think it's kinda overpriced, underpowered and/or overweight. It has a solid rear axle and doesn't come close to the handling of the above mentioned competition. A lot of people have nitpicked things like the quality of the interior or overall build quality.

 

Heh... the more I think about it... it's really not that nice. A 300hp RWD V8 is nice and it's quicker than the 350Z at least for about the same money, but I'd still take the Z any day if I had to choose between the two. The Z is just the better all around car. The STi and Evo just put every aspect of the Mustang to shame.

 

Hell... can't you pick up a GTO for around the same as the Mustang? I don't remember the exact price but I remember thinking it was an extreme bargain with 400hp and a 6spd... even if it didn't look the part like the Mustang does.

[Gollum]

I just had a revelation. I know our problem with the mustang (if you're a purist of any company skip this post)

 

Chevy... Where's this elusive car that's supposed to compete with the mustang? The vette? Ok, so ford has to produce a specialty model that doubles the price of the base stang to get into the same price range. Not really same leage IMO. Chevy used to make a half decent car called a camero. It had a good motor, but suffered from poor suspension and looks that didn't appeal to many guys wanting an agressive muscle look. The new GTO is a joke. I'm sorry. I saw a guy who was 50+ driving one and I said to myself "that's exactly who should be buying them, these old guys that defend the new gto so much." It's a great car, but i looks worse than the new STI. It's FAR worse, because it doesn't even attempt to look like a muscle car.

 

And dodge? HAHAHAHA. It's taken THIS LONG for dodge to make a charger, just to make it a 4 door?!??!?!?!?! Where's the dodge from the 60's? Making a million different cars off the few basic platforms they had.

 

So while ford's been playing "own the market" over here in japan there's been fierce competition by MANY companies in a SMALL country in wich many LESS percentile of the population own cars than the US. Subrau and Mitsu both looked at the rally as a good outlet for race sponsoring, since none of the other jap companies seemed interested in that market. And they've been at the same battle for well over 10 years now, any they've both made revisions to ther cars often, leaving them today with some of the most advanced cars you can get your hands on for thier price. They've been battling so hard they've started to compete with other big jap names wich took everyone by surprise. They've made the skyline's AWD system look like a joke at it's price, and they've made the weight of the 2 seater NSX look heavy. The new EVO 9 is practically all aluminium and where is out domestic muscle race?

 

Stuck in the freaggin' gutter. Where's the competition? NASCAR is a joke. The tech in those cars effects street cars less than F1 tech. Rally racing is real. The improvements are real, this is why it's worked for subaru and mitsu. Ford, Chevy, and Dodge need to get some competition going in wich stock chassis are used and stock blocks/heads are used. If people started watching, we migh actually see a real car revolution to rival the late 60's.

 

The second main factor in my opinion as to why cars suck nowdays? Regulations... We're so stinkin' PC nowdays we're more concerned about how enviorment friendly our cars than renovating "dinosar" factories that by car definitions are "gross poluters" and should be updated with modern equipment. Society is dumb. Cars are one of the only pollution factors we come in contact with so that's the only one we care about, thus car guys suffer at the mercy of politicians trying to get a little more poll.

 

In closing, go ahead, blame ford, but I got a million reasons why we can blame other people as well.

 

(sorry for that rant/rave, but it had to be done. These are my true opinions about why modern muscle cars suck)

[Mikelly]

Here's the rational that normally takes place:

 

Guy finally can afford something besides a minivan or grocery getter... He buys a modern "muscle car" and keeps it for about 2-4 years while doing bolt ons or upgrades. Over that period of time career and money are going better. Guy gets tired of "muscle car" and wants something and can now afford something that is a little more upscale... He starts looking. His choices are Infinity G35/ Nissan 350Z (35-40K range loaded) and newer pony cars... Gee, unimpressed he decides to look outside the box at other cars. He looks at STis and EVOs, but for that money, I wonder what the going rate is on BMW and Mercedees... All the sudden he's looking in the market around 45K to 50K and realizes he can afford a lot higher class vehicle... So now he's looking at Vettes and M3s, and Maybe Porsche Boxters... So he buys something in the mid to upper 40s American or European in the form of a sedan or Prosche Boxter, or a Corvette.

 

Couple years go by and he is now running in a new class of "enthusiasts" with a whole new class of cars. Guy is doing even better, making more money and he's starting to get tired of his latest toy... So what can he buy? Hmmm Starts looking, and starts doing the numbers and realizes that he can afford a Z06 Corvette at $68500... Gee can't get one because they are sold out or marked up? Well now, we're close to the price of a new Viper, which is a BAD RIDE, so He starts trying to find one of those... For about $75,000... They are hard to find and test drives aren't allowed... BUt gee what else is available in that price range... All the sudden a lot of custom and specialty cars are out there in the market. Pick up a copy of Dupont registry if you're this guy and you're now like a kid in a candy store... Want a new Porsche 997 model? You're in that range... If you can stand to buy used, all the sudden a number of Ferraris and modified Porches along with a host of used hi hp vettes and vipers are available. Want something slighly more tame? Mercedees AMGs go used in that range (and lower) as well, and BMW Mseries cars are everywhere...

 

I've sit back and watch this play out time and again. As soon as you get a guy out of the musclecar/ ponycar and into something upscale, it's over... You have a guy who has turned a corner on performance cars. It's that simple. All the sudden that Mustang GT with all the SVO parts bolted on it is just as bad as the ricer kid in a hopped up Honda... So what if he beets you at the stop light... It's still just a Mustang... You're in an XXX (Whatever you fall head over heels for!). You might lose, but you're doing in in class and style.

 

Ford promissed their loyal Mustang Crowd the GT500 and they delivered. I don't think they did their homework and they clearly don't have in mind keeping step in the battle with the Vette and Viper shootouts. They've got the Ford GT for that for at least one more year. Unfortunalely you could buy two Z06s and have money left for the cost of a GT. And the GT500 is a joke. I bet handling issues are gonna be reported early.

 

As to the weights on the regular mustang, they are in the 36**# Range and the GTO is 37**#. If I was going to do one or the other, I'd buy the GTO only because of the cost vs. potential power of the LS2. The GTO has handling/ wheelhop issues and fitting boltons to it has proven a chore, much like working on 98-02 Fbodies. The difference between the GT500 and the regular GT is the Triton V8 stuffed under the GT500s hood, along with the roots type blower used on all the SVT project V8s.

 

It's a sad state of affairs when we have fewer rear drive cars to choose from. And the cars we do have are gaining weight every year. Unfortunately we enthusiasts don't make up the market. People wonder why I always wave the C5 Vette flag, but in the used car market it is a true bargain. I see 2002-2004 Z06s with low miles sell for under $35K. This was almost a $60K car when new on the lot. My C5 has everything the Z06 has bolted to it, except for the crappy Z06 seats, and I'm making more power... And I've got $28K total in it. You can get used C5s with moderate miles on it for well under $18K. It is the bargain performance sports car on the market. In that price range NOTHING ELSE compares.

 

However, Buy one and you'll be that guy I describe above, Kinda like me!

 

Mike

[BrandonsZ]

Or skip that rat race and just build a hybrid Z. Cheaper, more reliable, and so much potential for speed!

 

I will not buy a new car unless then relax this smog stuff, the last three cars I owned before the Z were given up based on the fact that they needed new engines to pass the smog restrictions. They just keep lowering the maximums to the point where even a new engine might not fix it. At this rate in 10 years a car will fail smog after rolling off the assembly line and this is exactly what carmakers want. You don't have to smog the car for three years and then you are looking at either spending 5000 to get the car to pass smog or just trading it in on a new one. A new car every three years and 0 resale for used ones, no competition. Those bastards!

[MusPuppis]

Unfortunately we enthusiasts don't make up the market

 

That is the exact reason we get what we get. Once in a great while a company will throw us a bone, but in general, we get shyte upon. The american consumer - as a whole - is undereducated, ill-informed and happily so about most products. 90% of the idgets that see the GT500 are gonna see 475hp and just salivate. They dont know the weight. I mean.. C'mon! Whats 1500pds of extra weight when you have all that hp!

 

I see it time and time again.. Idiot A races Idiot B. Idiot A has spent half an hour talking trash about his Hemi Dodge's power and how it'll kick the crap out Idiot B's car - cause idiot B's car isnt as powerful. Idiot A neglects to notice his car is 1000pds heavier than Idiot B's and only packing around 50-ish hp more.

 

Idiot A and Idiot B run em. Idiot B smiles casually as he walks by Idiot A at about 60, and continues to gain distance up to around 100, when Idiot B backs off. They pull over and Idiot A is dumbfounded. How could he have lost! His truck is NEW! It makes more POWER! Its a HEMI! Idiot B knows why. Idiot B's truck weighs in about 4500pds vs Idiot A's which has every option know to man stuck into it and comes in over 5500.

 

I'm Idiot B btw. My Ford owns Hemi's. Sorry.

 

Anyway, back on track,

 

The american consumer just doesnt care honestly. Some of us do, but the vast majority is more impressed with shallow figures and shiny baubles than it is with actualy, real performance data. You have 500hp? Good, that means your better than every car out there that doesnt, regardless of weight chasis dynamics. Hell, see that V8 Z? He's pushing 490hp to the wheels, but your making 500! You can take him!

[Dave240Z]

Wow that is some interesting and mildly disappointing info. It seems as if most manufacturers are having a real hard time keeping the weight down on these things. While the power outputs continue to climb to ever more impressive numbers, the actual effect on the driving experience is muted due to all the extra heft they have to push around.

 

What a sad day it has become now that modern "sports cars" or "Pony Cars" weigh as much as my Audi A6 4.2 Quattro "luxury sedan" and has about as much performance capability to boot.

 

At least I still have the Z and my M Coupe, both of which are sub 3000lb, where a real sports car should be.

 

Gone are the simple words of the venerable Colin Chapman

"Simplify and add lightness."

[Michael]

If you follow the editorials in the Detroit-iron mainstay magazines, such as Hot Rod and Car Craft, you’ll notice that the editorials praise muscle cars not only for large engine with lots of torque (always a good thing in my book) but their “manly sizeâ€. In other words, many American car buyers prefer the large dimensions and don’t mind the weight. True, as posted above, many consumers are simply ignorant about weight. But even among those that appreciate the importance of power to weight, many simply prefer the larger car and the more imposing bulk. This has been true in the American market for many decades. What disappoints me is that over the past 25 years Japanese and European cars have grown in size and weight, coming more and more to emulate American cars. So that while technology has given us ever more powerful and fuel efficient engines, today’s cars fail to meet both their acceleration and efficiency potential.

 

Then there’s the retro styling craze… I shudder to think how much extra aerodynamic drag the new Mustang is saddled with, on account of the forward-swept fishmouth grill. But hey, that style is popular with consumers, and form the viewpoint of profit Ford made a brilliant decision with those outer mold lines.

 

Of all the alternatives, probably the best rendition of a muscle car in today’s market is probably the Pontiac GTO. It’s “only†3750 lbs, and the styling is at least somewhat restrained.

 

Personally for daily driver I insist on RWD and a manual transmission, in a compact package – even if the horsepower isn’t exactly impressive. “Compact†to me means under 3000 lbs. And convertibles are excluded. In todays’ market, there are essentially no cars that fit those criteria. So I’d either buy an Infiniti G35, which misses the weight numbers, or a Mazda 3, which is FWD.

[MusPuppis]

Well,

 

I understand how folks would gravitate towards a big, imposing car. THe many size is nice and all - BUT, you can get the size without the weight. I just think the cars are being engineered from the wrong stand-point. I dont think any thought is going towards weight savings - just features. Large, bulky (and often cheap looking =/) interiors, over-done exteriors sporting massive rims for no reason.. Massive HEAVY rims. Hell, even the seats are over-engineered and extremely heavy (got to help install one in a new Mustang while stopping in to talk with a friend that works at a Ford dealership).

 

I think with a little thought, planning and effort Ford could have produced a truley amazing car in the 05, but its a fat-*** and that will forever hamper it.