Z vs ZX ?

[JMortensen]

BTW... the 1987 GT2 national championship winning 280ZX is for sale on eBay.

 

SCCA GT@ CHamp 280ZX

Wow, opening at $5k. That'd be a steal!!! Wonder what the reserve is though. That'd be a FUN car to race I'm sure.

 

Here's another way of looking at this issue. The reason that the 240Z was the preferred chassis for racing was because it was lighter. Even if you can get the power to weight ratio the same for a heavier 280Z, the heavier weight is going to make it harder to get around corners.

 

The ZX is the same way as the 280Z. Heavier with .4L displacement to make up for it.

 

Now you get into a GT2 car like the one for sale and then all bets are off. Full tube frame and all fiberglass panels levels the field. The weight for the Z is the same as the weight for the ZX (just looked it up in the rulebook). The cars are so far from stock that it would be hard to compare them to the originals, but it might be interesting to see what there are more of: GT2 240Z's or GT2 280ZX's. I would think that the 280ZX would be a better choice because it's more aerodynamic, but I don't recall seeing any 280ZX's at the runoffs. Lots of 240Z's in the back of the pack. I think the Z32 300ZX has such an aero advantage that people have gotten rid of their 280ZX race cars. If they are out to win, would make sense for the 240Z racers to do the same IMHO...

[johnc]

I don't understand why folks think the S130 didn't have a good competition record.

 

1. Is was the C Production national champ in 1979 (giving Nissan its 10th consecutive CP title) beating ALL the 240Zs entered.

2. It won IMSA GTU in 1979.

3. It won IMSA GTO in 1982.

4. It was the SCCA GT1 national champ in 1985, 1986, 1987 and 1988.

5. It was the SCCA GT2 national champ in 1984 and 1987.

 

That's 9 national championships which I think is equal to the championships won by the 240Z.

[JMortensen]

Because you aren't comparing apples to apples. When CP changed to GT2 the class rules changed pretty dramatically IIRC. GT1 is even further off the mark from production based racing. I'm basing this opinion on seeing the buildups in the How to Hotrod book, vs pics like the GT2 ZX that's on ebay. What I'm saying, and it may be totally wrong and please tell me if it is, is that comparing a GT1 or a GT2 car to a stock ZX is like comparing a NASCAR Taurus to the one you buy from the dealer. Comparing a CP 240Z to a stock 240Z is a hell of a lot closer.

[Oleh]

Wow' date=' opening at $5k. That'd be a steal!!! Wonder what the reserve is though. That'd be a FUN car to race I'm sure.

 

Here's another way of looking at this issue. The reason that the 240Z was the preferred chassis for racing was because it was lighter. Even if you can get the power to weight ratio the same for a heavier 280Z, the heavier weight is going to make it harder to get around corners.

 

The ZX is the same way as the 280Z. Heavier with .4L displacement to make up for it.

 

Now you get into a GT2 car like the one for sale and then all bets are off. Full tube frame and all fiberglass panels levels the field. The weight for the Z is the same as the weight for the ZX (just looked it up in the rulebook). The cars are so far from stock that it would be hard to compare them to the originals, but it might be interesting to see what there are more of: GT2 240Z's or GT2 280ZX's. I would think that the 280ZX would be a better choice because it's more aerodynamic, but I don't recall seeing any 280ZX's at the runoffs. Lots of 240Z's in the back of the pack. I think the Z32 300ZX has such an aero advantage that people have gotten rid of their 280ZX race cars. If they are out to win, would make sense for the 240Z racers to do the same IMHO...[/quote']

 

The 79 ZX is lighter than the 280Z....

[johnc]

I'm not comparing stock for stock or anything else. I'm just listing the competition record for the 280ZX as I've been able to research it via the Internet. I'm disagreeing with people who say the 280ZX did not have good competition record.

 

It had a frickin' outstanding competition record for the 9 years it was raced. The record was pretty much equal to the 240Zs competition record and to try and minimize or downplay it because the 280ZXs were build to different (and faster) class rules over the years is nuts. Look at the 280ZX's competition - Porsche 935s, Mazda RX7s, Trans-Am Mustangs, etc.

 

A national championship in any racing class with any sanctioning body is a significant accomplishment whether there was one or one-hundred people on the team.

[JMortensen]

Not arguing the point of racing history at all John. You're right. The ZX has a brilliant racing history of championships in FASTER classes than the 240Z. No argument.

 

All I'm saying is that a Ford Taurus has a LONGER, MORE SUCCESSFUL racing history than a 280ZX in the even more prestigious (to most anyway) racing classes offered in NASCAR. That doesn't mean that I'm going to run out and buy one. Just because a built to the Nth degree racecar is fast that doesn't necessarily reflect the potential of the street version of the same car (unless you're talking about the potential of the silhouette, as in NASCAR).

 

Look, I don't doubt that you can make ZX's very fast. You obviously can. And as was pointed out, the 510 has a great history and shares a similar suspension design. I prefer the chapman strut to the semi-trailing arm, and I prefer the lighter chassis. That's why I like the 240Z over the 260, 280, 280ZX, 300ZX, and 350Z.

 

Oleh, you're right, but not by much, and still ~500 lbs more than a 240Z.

[aarang]

I've owned eight 240Z's and am on my fourth 280ZX. I loved all my cars, but for some reason I lean towards the 280ZX now. Maybe because for me atleast the 240Z seems to be getting more and more expensive to buy nowadays. Having bought really nice 240's for $1500 10-15 years ago, it is hard to justify paying 5-10K for one now and then put another 10k into it. I had a chance to buy back a 240z that I had prevoiusly owned a few months back. I drove the snot out of the car for about an hour or so, returned the car, and a few days later decided it was not what I wanted anymore!! Strange! Oh, anyway I think all Z's are Z's, not just 240's! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? My .02!

 

Aaron

[Pop N Wood]

I don't understand why folks think the S130 didn't have a good competition record.

 

There is only one person in this thread who said ZX's didn't have as good of a competitive record, and I have already admitted I misinterpreted what you said in the past.

 

Some good info you are listing none the less.

[johnc]

OK, I'll calm down now and go back to working on a 240Z.

[HeatRaveR]

The 280ZX suffers from a particular trough of prestige because it’s a transitional car; not quite old enough or pure enough or simple enough to be a “classicâ€, yet not quite hi-po or high-tech enough to be a modern car.

I totally hear ya on the 280ZX being a compromise/transition car. But rather than thinking of it as not being good enough for either side, I choose to view it as a positive. I like to think of it as "more classy than modern cars, and more comfortable/practical than older cars". I agree the 1st gens look better, but the 280ZX still looks close enough that I'm happy, and I get stufff I like, such as power windows, AC, etc.

[KTM-EXC]

I don't think saying that the ist gen is lighter is a good argument. The only reason it is slightly heavier because it has all the comforts the older cars didn't have, which could be removed. And if it weren't for the 280zx turbo were would all of you get your motors? I do have to agree that in most cases the 240-280z's usually look better, especially with some really wide tires and some fender flares.

[rudypoochris]

I don't think saying that the ist gen is lighter is a good argument. The only reason it is slightly heavier because it has all the comforts the older cars didn't have, which could be removed. And if it weren't for the 280zx turbo were would all of you get your motors? I do have to agree that in most cases the 240-280z's usually look better, especially with some really wide tires and some fender flares.

 

I don't think alot of those items may be removed, and if they were you would probably be sitting in a stripped out car, where as the 240z would weigh about the same and not be stripped out. If you want to be fair about the weight shaving, I think if you removed stuff from both cars to the same degree the 240z would still be lighter. And yes alot of people would not have L28ET's if the 280zx turbo didn't exist, but a motor doesn't make a car inherently good. I still like 280zx's, I just don't agree with your arguments.

[Pop N Wood]

And if it weren't for the 280zx turbo were would all of you get your motors?

 

Why, from GM products of course.

[JMortensen]

I don't think saying that the ist gen is lighter is a good argument. The only reason it is slightly heavier because it has all the comforts the older cars didn't have, which could be removed. And if it weren't for the 280zx turbo were would all of you get your motors? I do have to agree that in most cases the 240-280z's usually look better, especially with some really wide tires and some fender flares.

Pick up a 240Z door, then a 280Z door, then a 280ZX door. Or a hood. Or an exhaust manifold. It's not one thing that makes the later cars heavier. It's everything. All the individual pieces got heavier as time went on. To be fair I don't know what a stripped ZX shell weighs. It would be interesting to find out. If the stripped shells were close, and if you were going all fiberglass panels, you might end up somewhere in the same vicinity.

[Oleh]

^ let me tell you, a striped ZX is heavy. Two average people will not be able to pick it up.

[waynekarnes]

with the zx, nissan did what ford did with the original mustang. in 73 they made the grande mustang.

 

wanted to appeal to a larger ( big bottomed ) audience. plusher, more doo dads, bells and whistles.

 

it worked well for pontiac. when they bastardized the firebird and trans am, turned em into chick cars, the trans am sold like hot cakes.

 

nissan did the same thing, took a niche car and made it appeal to the masses.

 

in 1978 when the '79 zx went on sale women, disco stu, and potential caddillac customers that wanted a sporty car flocked to the dealerships.

 

the 79 zx out sold the previous z car. it was the best selling z series car of its time.

 

to those who went bonkers over the z car from 69 to 78, nine years, the zx was not the proper evolution of the z car.

 

check out the vw bug, it maintained the same basic shape, the mechanics and safety improving year to year.

 

while the basic shape of the zx is close to the z car, it is none the less fat and bloated when compared to the z car.

 

it is a disco period car, gold chains, fake leather jackets, polyester leisure suits, horrible music and the funky chicken.

 

that may be the reason the zx gets so little respect from the rock and rollers.

 

different times.

 

i'm a big vette fan. with a few exceptions, i don't care for the 78 through 85 corvettes either. plastic pigs. maybe for the same reasons.

 

that said, in 81 when my brand new 81 el camino SS broke down for the 30th time in less than 5000 miles, san jose datsun had a black 79 zx GL on the lot. $10,000. fully loaded. earlier that day, they had a 72 240z on the lot. i stopped in to check out the z car. it had sold an hour before i got there.

 

salesman talked me into driving the zx.

 

from the inside, comfortable, power everything, great stereo, seats fit me. 5 speed shifted smooth as silk. plenty of power. wasn't quick as the 240z, but felt better than the 280z a friend owned.

 

sales manager let me take it by myself, told me be back in an hour, he was going to lunch. he took the el camino (was on my way home from work, air condition came on, it was 38 degrees outside, air would not shut off, there was ice forming inside on the base of the windshield ).

 

drove the zx home, to a girl friend's, to my best friend's, my parent's. short ride from san jose to summit road on hiway 17. back to the dealership.

 

wow !!!

 

until then, i didn't like the zx because it wasn't a z car.

 

the 78 vette wasn't a vette. the 78 trans am wasn't a trans am, the 77 z/28 was not a z/28. i was sure of all this.

 

but now, after spending an hour in this zx, while it wasn't a z car, it was certainly a kissing cousin and i wanted it.

 

traded in the el camino. drove the zx for 2 years, banzai runs to pomona ( swap meet ), multiple trips to portland and cottage grove in oregon. back and forth to work. my only transportation ( that i could count on anyway ).

 

it would cruise all day long at 100 mph, straight and true. due to an aftermarket chrome wire wheel out of true or balance at 126 mph the right rear would develop a bad vibration at 130 the car would begin to hop ( speeds according to the speedo in the car ).

 

avg. mpg around town was 16 to 17, worst was 13 in stop and go when lights went out on san tomas expressway during commuter hours.

 

hiway mpg 26 to 28. best was a 60 mph ride to pomona ( for some reason, the highway patrol was running escort down hiway 5 all the way from los banos to magic mountain ), best mpg was over 30, think i got 32 mpg.

 

although i don't consider it to be a z car, and apparently at the time neither did nissan as they called it a ZX to distinguish it from the z car, the 280zx will always be one of my favorite cars. as a compromise vehicle meant to appeal to the fat bottomed crowd, it hit most of the marks as an adult GT coupe.

 

oh, though no one asked, at the time, i was 5'6", 24 yrs old, weighed in at 125 lbs. after 2 yrs. i sold the zx and bought a 70 corvette LT-1 roadster ( 350 cu inch 350 hp, 4 speed convertible ) and started restoring it and using it as my daily driver.

 

the 240z is the z car.

 

the 280zx is the zx car.

 

the 67 to 69 camaro is the camaro.

 

70 and beyond, share the name, but not the soul of the original.

 

i don't think its snobbery, one isn't better than the other.

 

it's plain vanilla versus rocky road ice cream.

 

some prefer it pure and simple, others prefer a bit more flavor.

 

where do i stand ?

 

i like em both.

 

that said, the 240z is the z car.

 

the 260 is not the z car.

 

the 280 is not the z car.

 

the zx is not the z car.

 

the 300z is not the z car.

 

the 350z is not the z car.

 

the 69 to 73 ( and i question the 73 ) are the true z cars.

 

everything after that are completely different animals, in spirit and form.

 

my 82 cents worth, hope it was worth the read.

[rudypoochris]

Wayne I enjoyed that.

[waynekarnes]

thanks !

 

did it all with smoke and mirrors

[Dave88SS]

the 300z is not the z car.

 

How could it be, it never existed!

[waynekarnes]

Originally Posted by waynekarnes

the 300z is not the z car.

 

 

How could it be, it never existed!

 

 

a typo on my part

 

 

with the exception of the last of the 300zx series, especially the twin turbo, wouldn't bother me a bit if the 300zx didn't exist.

 

nissan took the " its looks are growing on me " 280zx, made it the "what the hell were they thinking" 300zx .

 

a friend had a one of the older 300zx turbos. mechanically, nice car. i could never get past the looks. he wanted a z car, settled on a 2 yr old 300zx when he got a deal he could walk past.

 

he put over 250k miles on it. he'd probably still be driving it if it hadn't been flattened by a large truck. at the time car was parked at the curb in front of his house. truck drove right up the hood as if it were a ramp. rear wheels ended up on the lift gate. those people that like that triump tr 7 look, would have really enjoyed the new low to the road look.