Tony D Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Well, after another year, I got some more time to play and finish the MS install. Yes, I'm still at it! Thought it was pretty well solved when I diagnosed the second Autozone Alternator as a noise / reset source. Made up my external regulator plug with diode, and this weekend finally got the chance to reinstall the 81ZXT alternator that was on the car in the first place. Problem solved, right? Not hardly! Does the SAME DAMN THING! I can run all day long on the battery. Hell, I can run at any speed I want below flash speed for the alternator and the thing runs wonderfully. But 15 to 24 seconds after the alternator field flashes, the first LED on the MS Box drops out, the tach in the car drops to zero, and the car will run like sh*t afterwards till I shut it off and restart it. As long as the alternator is NOT charging the system, the car will run. I am totally disgusted with this process at this point. After the first box died with no warning, I installed the second box, but I really don't want to reflash the chip to see if something is fcorrupetd, I don't think that's it. It sickens me to have helped so many other people get these little silver boxes running in THEIR cars. Many times talking them through it over the phone! But this sh*t is simply ridiculous! Is there anybody interested in buying three preassembled MS boxes, Relay Boxes, and Megaview kits still in their shipping box? I'm about ready to chuck it all in, I don't have the time for this kind of bullsh*t! The most frustrating thing is I seem to have everybody else under the sun working, but myself. WTF is the deal with that? I am still runnning the original MS-n-S code, have not changed over to MS-S-E simply because I am totally uinfamiliar with it, and don't need more headaches to contend with in trying to get it to work. For the time I have spent, I am sorry I didn't buy Lance Nist's System for $1800 and jsut RAN the damn car without having to freaking engineer some damn super filter for every time an electrical component on the vehicle farts and disrupts the system. I am at my wits' end to figure out what the fu*king hell I have to do to get the damn thing to just RUN without crapping out all over the place. Running on battery power is not an option, and with a NISSAN alternatorin there (with attached costs) I'll be DAMNED if I spend another DIME to buy another component. The light, as well as apparently spark and injection events just drop off after the thing has flashed the field. Unacceptable. WTF would cause this? The MS forum is about useless, I gave up on them a year ago when it kept loosing my login, and even when I placed a post, it was soundly ignored. This is my last refuge---does ANYBODY have ANY idea what could be causing MY BOXES SUCCEPTIBILTIY to interference? This goddamned thing needs to work with commercially available alternators, I REFUSE to make some super-duper effort other than the Radio Shack Power Filter on the inlet power supply line to the box at this point. What a crock of F-ing Shite! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernardd Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Your car wants a z31 ecu. You know it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oinojo Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 damn man, now you know how i felt during the whole MS experience:fmad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 I hate to see anyone having problems, but I really hate to see this. We had an instance where the MS box needed to be grounded. Actually bolted the box to the firewall and then it behaved better. It seems like the only connection on the MS board to the case is through the DB25 and DB9 connector housings, since they touch the aluminum case. Thoses housing are connected to ground on the board, so it seems that MS v2.2 boards may not pick up enough grounding through the regular wire connections. Its the only thing I can think of it you haven't already grounded the box. I am just working off memory here, but we also had an instance where the vacuum line we used(black rubber, regualr stuff) conducts electricity and it was causing a sort of short between the board and the case which produced some really weid behavior. That doesn't seem likely since yours runs ok only on the battery, but if I remember right that particular setup ran better with the alternator disconnected. I'll have to talk to my friend to remember all the details but that was the two big ones I remember encountering. Sometimes no matter how much we do we are still doomed to fail on some projects???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Your car wants a z31 ecu. You know it does. heh heh, it won't accept the transplant, have to go nissan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Allright, talked to my friend and his install on a chevy pickup would not work(resets all the time) if the box was located inside the cabin on the firewall, but if they moved the box behind the seat it worked fine. They tried multiple boxes and mucho condensers, filters, etc. That was the story???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 If it was a reset, I would have some direction. This SOB will stumble, then the injection led simply shuts off and the tach dies----meaning in a 260 at least, that the output to the coil has stopped as well. Datalogs show one bin where the RPM will be "0", with proper values on either side. Datalogged yesterday, and found some spiking to high limits of the rpm range? But has anyone had "dave cap" issues using the 82/83 CAS assembly? Or the 81 For that matter? I mean, tach interference is one thing.... BAH! I mean, If the clock was resetting, I could at least SEE an indication! I don't even get that! It's not a stumbling reset, just like something is freaking out the program, and no matter how long I let it idle, the dam thing will NOT get better, until I shut the switch off and then turn it back on. If I had more than a few hours every few months to work at this and keep current it would be one thing. I mean, it sat for 7 months when I was off to Venezuela, and fired right up and I drove it up to the front of the property (albiet on battery power) no problem. What about connecting a battery charger? Sometimes this causes a "runaway" spark/injection situation. I can't have the MS powered on when I connect the battery charger. Jumping it from another battery is fine, but not a charger. Sometimes..... Conductive hose would be nice! Save for that eraly on warning someone on the Yahoo Groups site gave us about conductive tubing inside the box causing problems---that's why I used Vinyl Tube, and then had an adapter placed inline to stick an orifice if needed, and then the black tubing to the engine bay. I may try another box someone nearby has. I was reluctant to use his box due to the reprogramming required because he will be running "fuel only" but at this point I don't know what else to try. I have another box, my confidence level is not high in the item. Not high at all. Man, I would kill to have resets again. At least then ther eis a problem I can see to attack. This sh*t is ridiculous! Oh, and I hate a MAF, and packaging it. I likes my straight tubes.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 Seeing JP's Posts on his 260Z, I wonder if the power to my fuel pump is shutting off as well.... Hmmmmmmmmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POSTM Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Z31 ECU $15, wiring harness $1 a foot at the local you pull it. Sorry I couldn’t help it. Chuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woldson Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 i believe that when the alternator starts its charge voltage gose to its highest point. if there is a short i may become apparent with the extra votage needed to short. different alternators, but same battery? can a z run with batty diconected? just off the alternator? disco the carge lead from alternator to batty at the alternator, i think i will still go into charge mode but into nothing and see Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jkube Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Hey TonyD I had some problems initially with my setup (although not exactly same symptom as you) and found my problem to be that I had hooked up the MS 12 volt source to one of the alternator wires. It seems that the alternnator throws out some crazy EMF pulses that seem to get damped the further away you get. As soon as I moved it away, closer to the fuse box all went well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nismo280zEd Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 you mentioned you installed an external regulator with a diode, was this inline from the alternator to the battery? If so your prolly still geting pulses through the electronics. I had a similar problem also had to ground my alternator to a different spot on the car body, then run a ground to the battery. Had to install another regulator just for MS power, pretty retarded but hey it fixed the problem. Also recently my MS was powering down exactly like yours. I traced it back to a cracked solder connection on the DB 25 connection on the ECU I guess it would flex under high load in the car, extreme corners accel, decel etc. Would make the temp sensor read -40 and throw off the TPS signal in a way that when i gave it gas, the temp would increase and the tps would decrease, and visa versa. Really screwy huh? -Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 Hey TonyD I had some problems initially with my setup (although not exactly same symptom as you) and found my problem to be that I had hooked up the MS 12 volt source to one of the alternator wires. It seems that the alternnator throws out some crazy EMF pulses that seem to get damped the further away you get. As soon as I moved it away' date=' closer to the fuse box all went well.[/quote'] My power wire comes off the starter, where the (+) Batt Lead goes to the thing. THROUGH that Radio Shack 20A power filter whit the transformer coil and big capacitors in it! I mean, power coming out of there LOOKS clean from the O-Scope point of view, leastwise last time I looked it did... I suppose I could take power nearer to the fusebox, but then due to the 260's butt-spliced wiring harness (from the factory, cut one apart and SEE!) the voltage will be lower. As it is, the Datalogs show the voltage as 12.6V when it's charging, and 11.8V when it's on battery alone. BEFORE the alternator swap, the voltage was showing like 13VDC on the datalogs, and would rise to 15+ with the engine speed rising---making me suspect the external regulator was not keeping a tight enough tolerance and the higher voltage was freaking out the MS internals. But now, the datalogs never show more than juuuuust under 13VDC. Which theoretically should be close enough to not cause problems. The diode in the external regulator connection was the solution to "run on" when the car is switched off, when you convert the 240 and the 260Z from external regulation to internal regulation on the alternator, you have to jumper some of the external regulator plug points to allow a loop to feed back to the alternator for sensing voltage. If you don't install a diode, once the field flashes on the alternator, and you shut the key off, the car continues to run on a feedback loop. The diode stops this. This is what it was doing intitially when I first had the car running (oh, what, three years ago now?) I would stall it to kill it, but it was running fine then. (Except for the resets....caused by the Vaio Laptop I was using....another time, another story...) But what kind of regulator did you need to install? Previously we clamped the incoming power with a diode, and David U from Melbourne showed me a chip regulator to instal linline to regulate the voltage to a preset point....is this what you are referring to? My question would be WHY? Datalogs are showing acceptable voltages as it is.... I guess I could re-scope the incoming power, but I didn't see anything untoward the last time. Neither did JeffP. Though we did see an inductive kick from the injectors in everything, it was nothing of great notice. it is still there when running on battery power, and has no effect on operation! I could think it was a loose connection, but since the car is motionless, and runs for literally an HOUR on the battery with no hint of even a hickup or fart or misfire, I'm still in the "fu*king alternator POS" mode of thinking. At least these last couple of posts gave me something to try. I can set up another ground on the alternator, separate from the factory harness, directly to 1) the block, 2) the ground point on the chassis, 3) the Battery (-) Terminal, and 4) Possibly the MS Ground point, but that is also run back to the battery if I recall, so that one is moot I suppose. I'll have to dig up DavidU's Regulator Circuit and see what I can do with that. Noisy alternator. What a PITA. Anybody got an idea on what O-Scope Settings I should use to CHECK the incoming power line for to actually SEE the disturbance? As it is, everything looks very stable from the power filter. I wonder if it's feeding up the GROUND side? Gaaargh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobythevan Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 For reference I used the diode with GM alternator on my setup and took power from the starter as well. After I sold the car Nelson did say that he had to ground the MS box because the fan relay wasn't working correctly. I had it tied up, but not bolted up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 21, 2006 Author Share Posted February 21, 2006 For reference I used the diode with GM alternator on my setup and took power from the starter as well. After I sold the car Nelson did say that he had to ground the MS box because the fan relay wasn't working correctly. I had it tied up, but not bolted up. That's what I recalled, as well. I have some GM alternators laying around, could it be Delco-Remy does a better job at electrical noise supression than Hitachi? Lord no, even the Brits abandoned Lucas for Delco..... Right now the box is floating on the center console, but it always was before... Maybe another ground to the case couldn't hurt. I have a vice grips laying around, this might not look pretty, but it'll work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xander Posted February 21, 2006 Share Posted February 21, 2006 Maybe you should do as I did. Simplify the system. Connect the main wire from the alternator directly to the battery with some decent gauge wire ( via a 80A fuse) and connect the sensing wire directly to the main terminal on the alternator. because you have a decent connection straight to the battery there will be (almost) no difference between the voltage at the battery and the alternator. I have a good 13.8 volt at the battery. I did not have a problem with run on using this setup. Also make sure your alternator has a very good ground. oh and tony, It was fun seeing you again and I am sorry that I was so F-ed up. I had the flu for halve a year (I thought) but it turned out that I am allergic to cats. Wendy has two of those bastards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 Oh, I will be there next weekend to go Kart Racing with the Z-ZX Club, and show the world the dominance of "Jabba The American" and the now-famous "Inertial Driving Technique!" Good to see your shop, too! See you in a week or so! LOL Frank has the EasyJet details in his Yahoo Box, make sure he reads them before next weekend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 Well, ran a supplementary 10 gauge wire from the alternator body to the engine block, from the engine block to the chassis ground point where the "star ground" goes directly from the battery negative post. Same thing. Hooked a 10 gauge wire from the MS Case, and grounded it to the chassis. Same thing. I had a third ground wire I left dangling off the block from it's common point, and during run checked the voltage from the end of that ground line, to the battery negative terminal. During running, this shows 32.5mVDC. This voltage represents something, not sure what, but it doesn't seem excessive at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicker240 Posted February 22, 2006 Share Posted February 22, 2006 Was talking to a friend about your problem today.He told of a time when a diode went bad in his alt. causing a feedback situation through the alt. ground wire,sending a small voltage back through the loop.Just wondering if this might be the source of the 32.5mV reading.certainly would explain the problem till you shut it off thing.Most better charging system testers will spot this,or a rebuilders test bench.I agree with the simplify the power circuit thing too,I was losing over 1.1v from alt. to the battery till I ran a wire directly from alt output to Bat+. 30 year old wiring builds some strange resistance loads.Keep on after it man.When the problem is finally cured,rest assured it will be some silly crap you looked over 100 times.I really hate electrical gremlins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted February 22, 2006 Author Share Posted February 22, 2006 Well, I'll parallel the charging wire tomorrow afternoon and see if that helps, but I hold no great hopes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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