Headed to scales and dyno

[CruxGNZ]

Lewis,

I met you, and you are a very cool guy. You took a road that only a few have taken. Some are set in thier ways, so be it. Mike says in that last quote, "You simply can NOT argue cubic inches... The more you pressurize that little four banger to get that power, the closer to the end of the engines life you come." I don't care who you are, this is true. You may have a wieght advantage, you may get good miles per gallon of fuel (if you're good with the GO pedal), but don't feel that everyone is against you. Don't feel that you have to justify your decision for your engine choice. You may have to rebuild the engine sooner than others, but this is the engine you wanted for your Z.

 

I have recieved a lot crap (mostly from purists) for putting in a V-6 in my Datsun, but for me, the ends justify the means and I could care less what anyone says about it. I built this vehicle for me and no one else.

 

Try your best to brush off what some guys with little knowledge have to say about your engine choice and drive your Z with a smile on your face knowing that it suits your needs and what you wanted. Live it up man, you have a quick Z that is on the road and you are enjoying it. That is more than some people can say on this forum.

[Mikelly]

What's truly sad is the fact that I've been a fan of yours, Lewis. I've also been a fan of the SR20DET swap. However, I'm not gonna play games when it comes to why we run this site the way we do. I've defended your stance a couple of times, both privately in the admin forum and publicly, while trying to be fair and objective.

 

Mike

[johnc]

Isn't there a 250 lb difference between an early 260Z and a 240Z?

 

That's "generally" true for a fully dressed 260Z vs. a fully dressed 240Z. But in the example I cited the big weight difference items (doors and bumpers) were modified/removed on the 260Z so they were somewhat comparable (actually the bumpers were lighter) to the 240Z. There is a weight difference in the bare shells between a series 1 240Z and all subsequent ones. Its obvious around the firewall/cowl sides and how the front top frame boxes meet the firewall. I don't know what that difference is but my guess is about 35 lbs. of extra sheet metal.

 

Again, the example above is not a perfect comparison. I posted it to show that, at least for highly modified eary Zs, engine choice has little affect on the total weight and weight distribution.

[johnc]

And I agree with Mike. A person's choice of engine for a Hybrid swap is primarily an emotional choice (unless rules get in the way). Each of us has an affinity for a certain type of engine based on how the engine sounds, how it delivers power, what we fell in love with as kids, or some other emotional reason. After the decision is made, ALL of us go through some rationalization process to come up with objective reasons for our decision. That's normal and is a result of our upbringing (emotion bad, reason good).

 

This site exists for all of us to say "I'm building myself a toy and MY toy has to have this engine because it makes me feel all tingly inside when I put the gas pedal to the floor!" without fear of someone trying to use reason to argue against our emotional decision.

 

I can't make a blanket statement that a NA L6 is a better engine in a 240Z then

to anyone else on this site. I can say that I prefer a NA L6 in the 240Zs that I build for myself because it makes me all tingly when I hear them at 7,000 rpm.

[ProjectSR20]

And I agree with Mike. A person's choice of engine for a Hybrid swap is primarily an emotional choice (unless rules get in the way). Each of us has an affinity for a certain type of engine based on how the engine sounds' date=' how it delivers power, what we fell in love with as kids, or some other emotional reason. After the decision is made, ALL of us go through some rationalization process to come up with objective reasons for our decision. That's normal and is a result of our upbringing (emotion bad, reason good).

 

This site exists for all of us to say "I'm building myself a toy and MY toy has to have this engine because it makes me feel all tingly inside when I put the gas pedal to the floor!" without fear of someone trying to use reason to argue against our emotional decision.

 

I can't make a blanket statement that a NA L6 is a better engine in a 240Z then

1. to anyone else on this site. I can say that I prefer a NA L6 in the 240Zs that I build for myself because it makes me all tingly when I hear them at 7,000 rpm.

 

I totally agree with this point of view. I think more people around here need to start thinking like this. So what someone has a SR20, so what someone has a V8. I think the thing we need to remember here is that we are all working on the same car. Like John said, we picked the motor we did not totally based on objectives, but emotion. Just the same way that we picked what car to put that motor in. I have re-read the post in question several times and I think that everyone is guilty of showing that emotion over fact, even myself. That is just a natural human response. When we feel that something we think is a good idea gets put down, we defend it. We just need to remember to not let those emotions, that have all led us to this site, take the best of us and ruin integriy of HybridZ. I would hate, more than anything, to see this site go down the crapper just because of too much emotion. Sorry for the ranting, just my .02.

[b__sosick]

I personally love the sr20 swap! I'm tempted to do it myself! The only thing is...the f&f and drifting crazes have made sr20's waaaay too expensive. Good luck on your car and I can't wait to see the "finished"(like we're ever done!!) product!

[Lewis Maudlin]

The interesting this is that I haven't been arguing. I merely asked whether John's comments were based on fact. I believe that this is a valid question. I am not arguing with the facts. If you take a look at my posts, I don't.

 

Mike says,

If you have dollars measured in cubic feet, you can do anything. To do it cheap, sure it'll last a few thousand miles. Then you're left with busted parts and a lighter wallet. Not very smart in my opinion. But to each, his own. My stepson can sing you his little four banger turbo blues right along with the rest of you... Anyone can do it. The question is can you do it RIGHT? Most can't.

 

Am I the only one that thinks his statement looks opinionated.

 

Mike, you can say that you don't like 4 cylinders. It's OK. I don't like Celene Dion. There, I've said it. But don't try to tell me that comments must be based on facts and that your comments are all factual and then tell me that I can't ask what the factual basis is for your comments.

 

This entire deviation from the thread resulted from my inquiry to John asking whether his comment was based on fact. I was just curious as to whether it was factual or specualtion. GEEZ!

[Mikelly]

So Lewis, WHY don't you go back and snip in every time I've said that the SR20DET was one of MY FAVORITE SWAPS EVER? Damn man...

 

I'm done. You have fun with your swap.

[pparaska]

I have re-read the post in question several times and I think that everyone is guilty of showing that emotion over fact, even myself. That is just a natural human response. When we feel that something we think is a good idea gets put down, we defend it. We just need to remember to not let those emotions, that have all led us to this site, take the best of us and ruin integriy of HybridZ. I would hate, more than anything, to see this site go down the crapper just because of too much emotion. Sorry for the ranting, just my .02.

Be careful with absolutes like "everybody". Absolutes are really dangerous.

 

I know you may not have meant me when you said "everybody", but no where in that thread did I show emotion OVER fact. The only times I showed emotion in my posts is where I was responding to people that were MAKING UP INCORRECT INFORMATION AND PASSING IT OFF AS FACT to make their engine choice look better.

 

I think the real culprits of bringing hybridZ down are those that make ridiculously INCORRECT techincal arguments that are fabricated to make their engine choice look superior or someone else's choice look like a farm tractor engine. Read that thread again and make your own list, but I think you'll agree that my name will NOT be on it.

[pparaska]

And I agree with Mike. A person's choice of engine for a Hybrid swap is primarily an emotional choice (unless rules get in the way). Each of us has an affinity for a certain type of engine based on how the engine sounds, how it delivers power, what we fell in love with as kids, or some other emotional reason. After the decision is made, ALL of us go through some rationalization process to come up with objective reasons for our decision. That's normal and is a result of our upbringing (emotion bad, reason good).

John, I have to disagree with you slightly here. I think there are plenty of technical trade-offs in the choice of engine for someone's HybridZ that are based on factual information.

 

The major one is one's intended use for the car:

Daily Driver

Weekend thrasher

street/mostly-strip

Strip only

Road course only

and varying mixtures of the above

 

Weight plays a big factor in deciding the gearing/tire diameter and secondarily, the power/torque curve rpm band.

 

Once that is decided, the choice of final gear/tire ratio (transmission top gear times differential ratio * tire diameter) helps select the transmission.

 

The engine's power/torque curve and the overall gear ratios/tire diameter will be aligned with the intended use, or some mixture, which will cause compromises in the selection of the gearing and power/torque curve rpm band.

 

For cars that see the street, MY PREFERENCE is that cruise rpm needs to be reasonable ( less than 3500 rpm max preferable a good bit less, IMO) to get decent gas mileage and keep "buziness" and "nervousness" to a tolerable level. Then there's engine wear, which is lower with lower cruise rpms, but this may not be important for a seldom-use car.

 

So now it's down to power/torque curve rpm band, and this DOES get subjective, but only in the sense that people have different desires in how the engine's power should be delivered (NOTHING ABOUT EMOTIONAL STUFF THOUGH, YET).

 

If you pick a cruise rpm for top gear, MY PREFERENCE is that there should be a "reasonably impressive" amount of torque at the cruise rpm in whatever gear is usually used for cruise, and/or that turbo lag should be minimal or preferably absent at this operational point.

 

PREFERENCE ALERT: Well, that's me anyway, I hate being in the wrong gear/rpm in my Eclipse on the highway and not being able to move out somewhat quickly (without lag, or totally out of the torque curve) without shifting down. You get in tight situations where shifting might not be comfortable or even desired from an "appearance" standpoint, IMO.

 

Are there a bunch of personal choices in what I've written above? YES. But are there engine and drivetrain parameters that are factually based that make one engine more suited than another? DEFINITELY.

 

There's no emotion in those choices, just preferences based on how you want the machine to react on the street or track. There ARE bad choices you could make if you ignored the factual parameters and selected the engine based on some emotional attachment to one engine configuration or another. I think a great case in point is the NA 4cyl 11000 rpm thread that's running. That choice for a street car is almost ALL emotionally based.

 

And I think having factual debates on HybridZ about those parameter choices is EXACTLY the kind of discussions we should have - as long as those debates can STICK WITH THE CORRECT FACTS (not fabricated BS) while the parameters, uses, etc. are discussed.

 

But it's clear from the thread referenced above and others like it that we need to police these threads closely if we want to keep HybridZ a place where people can come to read current and old threads and make informed decisions based on these FACTUAL debates.

 

I do agree that if several engines can meet the parameters needed for the preferences in how the car will react, drive, cruise, race, etc., THEN you should let the TRULY emotional things like "how the engine sounds, what we fell in love with as kids, or some other emotional reason." I don't agree that how an engine delivers power (it's power/torque rpm band) is really an emotional thing - I think it's a rational choice of parameters that someone makes, just like choosing a PC that's fast enough to do large calculations in a timely manner.

 

But to let the emotional choices override the debate you should have with yourself about the use of the car and the operational parameters you want out of the combination is only going to lead to your sadness and disappointment.

 

To rationalize your emotional choices, over the intended use of the car and the operational parameters of the engine choice (especially if it means posting INCORRECT information about other engine choices) is NOT something that should be allowed on HybridZ, IMO.

 

One thing this site has done for me is shown me other engines I hadn't really considered (but hadn't crossed off either) for my kind of uses for a HybridZ. But that's only because people STUCK WITH THE FACTS when they posted performance results, their observations about how the engine contributed to the driving experience in a performance parameters sense, and then, yes, the visceral parameters that they liked.

[Phantom]

Here, Here Pete. Well said.

"For cars that see the street, MY PREFERENCE is that cruise rpm needs to be reasonable ( less than 3500 rpm max preferable a good bit less, IMO) to get decent gas mileage and keep "buziness" and "nervousness" to a tolerable level. Then there's engine wear, which is lower with lower cruise rpms, but this may not be important for a seldom-use car.

So now it's down to power/torque curve rpm band, and this DOES get subjective, but only in the sense that people have different desires in how the engine's power should be delivered (NOTHING ABOUT EMOTIONAL STUFF THOUGH, YET).

If you pick a cruise rpm for top gear, MY PREFERENCE is that there should be a "reasonably impressive" amount of torque at the cruise rpm in whatever gear is usually used for cruise, and/or that turbo lag should be minimal or preferably absent at this operational point."

 

As a daily driver that is exactly why I opted for what I have. At 2,000 RPM my car 'cruises' at 80 mph. At that point it's developing about 295 lb.ft. of torque. Even at 1,500 it's still about 280 so it will comfortably move out in traffic.

 

Back to an earlier part of the topic.

I've posted this several times before but I'll throw it out one more time. I put my California edition 1977 280Z on certified truck scales when it was stock except for an MSA AERO II body kit that replaced the heavy crash bumpers. With 3/4 tank of gas it weighed 2,800 lbs, 50/50 distribution.

AFTER the LS1/T56 conversion it weighed 1,400 lbs on the nose and 1,430 lbs on the tail, again with 3/4 tank of gas. The extra weight came from the T56 as the LS1 was about 25Lbs lighter than the L28. After adding a 4-pt roll bar, front and rear strut tower braces, an extensively upgraded sound system, sound deadening material, and all leather interior with a very heavy high end home carpet along with another 1/4 tank of gas the car weighed in at an even 3,000 lbs, 1,440 on the nose and 1,560 on the tail. At least this is some wieght data from a 280Z.

[Mikelly]

I think the real culprits of bringing hybridZ down are those that make ridiculously INCORRECT techincal arguments that are fabricated to make their engine choice look superior or someone else's choice look like a farm tractor engine. Read that thread again and make your own list' date=' but I think you'll agree that my name will NOT be on it.[/quote']

 

Or those who had a conversion of another type that was poorly done and who have decided that, in their infinate wisdom and experience with that poorly done swap, that XXX swap is far superior...

 

Form has to meet function, and expectations must meet the reality that we live in. You're not going to squeez a stock SR20DET to 400WHP reliably for any lengthy amount of time. But then again, I'm biased TOWARDS the SR20DET as a viable swap, so what do I know?

 

Mike

[Drax240z]

So did this 240z with SR20DET ever get weighed or dyno'd or am I just not seeing the info? I see a lot of guesses and estimates and little more... (other than john's post regarding Amir's car)

[Lewis Maudlin]

Well, it is running, I just made a poor choice going with the APEXi standalone. Now i am having issues with its memory. The guys at Apexi tell me that I can install a power relay and fix the problem. Also, I decided to go ahead and drop in my seats. Tomorrow i should be done, but I won't make it to the scales til next week and then the dyno the following week.

[SR240Z]

yea we should be hitting the dyno pretty soon, the new turbo setup, intercooler setup and fuel rail setup should be kick *** and we will also be on the scale to see what the car weighs

[Lewis Maudlin]

Hey Alex,

What is your new setup. I just went for the 240SX popular setup. GT2871R, Nismo 740's, Z32 MAF. i went for the small A/R .64 to get maximum response at the expense of top end power.

[SR240Z]

new setup is a top mounted garrett gt3076r with .82 a/r, rc engineering 1000cc injectors, pallnet top fed fuel rail, v-mount intercooler setup, tomei 270/270 cams, peak performance gold valve springs, greddy cam sprockets and we are still going to run our electromotive tec 2 ems, and a new exhaust setup is done, but not telling or showing until its back on the street

[majik16106]

hate to bring this back.. but how is it coming alex?

[SR240Z]

dyno day is setup for this friday, the day before MSA autox, i should also hopefully be able to get on a scale and see what the car weighs as well. Car is running great so far and cant wait to see what it does at 25psi+

[Hugh]

After swapping the SR20DET into my 240z with Tokico suspension all around, the nose raised up noticably. It is visibly higher, and you can feel it when you drive. I'm convinced a chunk of weight was shed from the front of my car.

 

No science to back it up, but I know the car.