AK-Z Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 I agree with jmortensen. Your are probably going to have to fab part of a new firewall, but on a build like this, what aren't you going to be changing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwik240z Posted March 27, 2006 Share Posted March 27, 2006 Well' date=' what do you think the radiator and it's coolant weighs? Water is 8 lbs/gal, probably 2 gallons, then there is the radiator itself, say 10-20 lbs depending on what you buy, so you're moving probably 30-40 lbs. The engine weighs 450 lbs, trans is 150. So moving those back 6 inches or whatever is going to have a much bigger effect than moving the radiator back. You might do both, but then also figure on the weight of the tubing used to move the coolant to the back and the coolant that's inside the tubes, you'll move the center of gravity back but increase the total weight. Do you know Dennis and Peggy Hale? They run the NorCal NASA autoxes in Marina, CA. It was shut down for a while but they're back up and running again. Might want to take a trip down and talk at them for a while, and do some autoxing while you're at it. They had an autox 510 with a 215 that they built specifically for lowest PMOI. They might be able to tell you what NOT to do. Supposedly there V8 510 is wicked fast when it's pointed the right direction, but keeping it pointed the right direction is apparently the problem. Now they just stick to driving "Pinky" their EP 510 mostly.[/quote'] Don't know if you want to Talk to Dennis about V8 510's. He is not really for them too much. He can certainly give you some advice aobut the handling though. I posted your pics on the 510 internet email forum list. Lots of comments so far. I own 4 510s and my 240Z. If you need any info or parts, let me know. I have been into 510's for over 20 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustrocket Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 I sent him an e-mail...his reply was a little discouraging, but not enough to stop me. > I understand that you have a pretty mean buick 215 powered 510 True, 300hp full race 8500rpm motor. Mounted so far back that the front crank throw is at the original firewall. 2000#, 500# per corner. 10" slicks. It is almost perfect on paper. It cost a freaking fortune. >that handles rather well. Absolutely false. It is ALWAYS slower than my 200 hp L18 powered EP class on 8" slicks 510. They are both autocross only cars. The directional stability is terrible. The chassis is too short and too flexible. The rear suspension goes between trailing throttle over steer and power oversteer. The low polar momoent is impossible to predict. It breaks EVERYTHING. It has even snapped a rear trailing arm pivot bolt. It seldom actually runs 5 minutes without breaking something. There is no way to supply enough air to cool the motor. It has a huge radiator diagonally mounted in the original engine bay with fully shrouded push and pull fans. It has all electric pump drives to keep it circulating after shut down just so that is will still crank over and restart in less than a half hour. It is red. It makes great noises and looks great, but is a total failure as a 510 or even as a Buick. >Would it be possible for me to talk to you in detail and get some suggestions about what to (and what not) to do with my swap? Don't do it. A Z has been converted very well with an LS1, by Dave Kipperman in Roseberg OR, but it cost well over $50K by the time the chassis was re-engineered to handle over 250hp. Z chassis are even shorter than 510s and are in big trouble for that. There is no way known to harness over 200hp with the 510 semi-trailing arm rear suspension design. Both the semi-trailing oversteer and general flex are trouble. 510s work because they are light, when they work. 2000# and up they lose that charm. A V8 ain't gonna get you there. No V6 nor turbo conversions have been worth a crap yet, much less V8 conversions. Dennis Hale THOUGHTS ON THIS ANYBODY? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 That's what I meant when I said "They might be able to tell you what NOT to do. Supposedly there V8 510 is wicked fast when it's pointed the right direction, but keeping it pointed the right direction is apparently the problem." Dennis told me all about it one day. They had it all figured out as to how to build it with the lowest PMOI possible, put a ton of money into it, and like he said, it basically sucks to drive. I was kind of thinking he might be able to give you advice like "Don't move the engine too far back, or you'll end up with something undriveable" and that sort of thing. EDIT--That last bit about the turbos and V6's basically means that his L18 race car is faster than all of the turbo, KA24 and VG30 engined cars he's come across. To him that's "not worth a crap." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwik240z Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I sent him an e-mail...his reply was a little discouraging' date=' but not enough to stop me. > I understand that you have a pretty mean buick 215 powered 510 True, 300hp full race 8500rpm motor. Mounted so far back that the front crank throw is at the original firewall. 2000#, 500# per corner. 10" slicks. It is almost perfect on paper. It cost a freaking fortune. >that handles rather well. Absolutely false. It is ALWAYS slower than my 200 hp L18 powered EP class on 8" slicks 510. They are both autocross only cars. The directional stability is terrible. The chassis is too short and too flexible. The rear suspension goes between trailing throttle over steer and power oversteer. The low polar momoent is impossible to predict. It breaks EVERYTHING. It has even snapped a rear trailing arm pivot bolt. It seldom actually runs 5 minutes without breaking something. There is no way to supply enough air to cool the motor. It has a huge radiator diagonally mounted in the original engine bay with fully shrouded push and pull fans. It has all electric pump drives to keep it circulating after shut down just so that is will still crank over and restart in less than a half hour. It is red. It makes great noises and looks great, but is a total failure as a 510 or even as a Buick. >Would it be possible for me to talk to you in detail and get some suggestions about what to (and what not) to do with my swap? Don't do it. A Z has been converted very well with an LS1, by Dave Kipperman in Roseberg OR, but it cost well over $50K by the time the chassis was re-engineered to handle over 250hp. Z chassis are even shorter than 510s and are in big trouble for that. There is no way known to harness over 200hp with the 510 semi-trailing arm rear suspension design. Both the semi-trailing oversteer and general flex are trouble. 510s work because they are light, when they work. 2000# and up they lose that charm. A V8 ain't gonna get you there. No V6 nor turbo conversions have been worth a crap yet, much less V8 conversions. Dennis Hale THOUGHTS ON THIS ANYBODY?[/quote'] Hate to say I told you so but Dennis is not a fan of V8 510's. Keep in mind that Denis likes to compete in his 510's on then auto-x circuit. He is really into handling. It all depends on what your intended purpose is for the car. Do you want a street cruiser that will surprise the likes of Corvettes, Vipers, Porshces, Ferarris, etc. and tear up the 1/4 mile. You can have that. Do you want a road race/auto-x car that will kick but on corvettes and vipers. You can't have that, unless you have very deep pockets, build a tube chassis race car and bolt the 510 body onto it and even then it might not work. What do you want it to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supra510 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Dennis is a good guy and a great asset to the 510 community, but take anything he says regarding engine swaps with a grain of salt. Not everybody wants an autocross car. His comments regarding the rear suspension are somewhat valid unless you look at Gary Havner's (SSS510 on this board I believe) 10 second IRS 510. Seems like he got the power down. If you want to build it, do it and build it for you not anyone else. I see more people get bent out of shape because someone criticizes their car, or engine choice, etc. You're the one that has to live with it so build it how you want. Are you going to have a great autocross car? Probably not, but it will be fun. Are you going to have a fun and quite fast trackday/drag car? Yes, if you build it right. Dennis sees the charm of the 510 as a light little car that dances around orange cones. That's not everyone's idea (frankly not many people's idea nowadays) of what this car is about. You should cut the firewall out enough to get a radiator in the front and go from there. The other thing you will face is that this will not be cheap. More power=bigger brakes (though JMort will disagree with me on how big)=bigger wheels=body mods, etc. Plus you need a good suspension as a starting platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustrocket Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 My suspension is looking decent already. Troy Ermish coil overs all the way around, tokico 5 ways in the front, Hal/Carerras in the rear, addco sway bars, techno toy camber plates and tie rods, and i also have a 4 point bar in the rear that will turn into a full cage after the swap is complete. I want this car to handle somewhat. I'm not expecting that i'm going to go to a track and spank enzos and f430s all day long. I want to have fun. I want to go fast in a straight line, and be able to turn when i need to. I dont think that's too much to ask, is it? Am i just blissfully ignorant? Should i ditch the project before i butcher a rust free 510? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwik240z Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 My suspension is looking decent already. Troy Ermish coil overs all the way around' date=' tokico 5 ways in the front, Hal/Carerras in the rear, addco sway bars, techno toy camber plates and tie rods, and i also have a 4 point bar in the rear that will turn into a full cage after the swap is complete. I want this car to handle somewhat. I'm not expecting that i'm going to go to a track and spank enzos and f430s all day long. I want to have fun. I want to go fast in a straight line, and be able to turn when i need to. I dont think that's too much to ask, is it? Am i just blissfully ignorant? Should i ditch the project before i butcher a rust free 510?[/quote'] It sounds like your suspension will make the car handle fine for what you want it to do. My V8 510 handled fine for the street and the track. I had 280ZX struts w/ coil overs up front with Konis and camber plates and a Quickor swaybar. The rears were Konis with ST springs and a Quickor sway bar. I am sure that Dennis' V8 510 would handle just fine for most of us. It is when he compares it to his 4 cyl 510 that the issues arise. I say GO FOR IT! That will be one great swap if you can finish it. Get the motor back as far as possible and mount a radiator up front. You will need to figure out how to get heat out of the tiny engine compartment. Make sure you open up the radiator opening and build a proper shroud to get the max cooling out of it. A louvered hood may help some and wrapping the headers too. An airdam with brake ducts that have been routed to the engine compartment too. Show us some more pics of your ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustrocket Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 Thanks for the support qwik240z. I think when i finish this swap, i'll change my name to stupidfastdime . Anyways, i obviously need the engine to be pretty far back, but at what point would it be too far back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mario_82_ZXT Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 On the rear mounted cooling system, some v8 Porsche guys do the opposite, they route it to the front on a rear engined car. One was posted not long ago that had this setup here on hybridz. Mario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhadman Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Man... I was checking out the engine bay of my 510 last night. It's tiny! The L20B looked big in there! Lol You should go for it! I think you'll go through alot of rear tires ( ) with that beast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwik240z Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Thanks for the support qwik240z. I think when i finish this swap' date=' i'll change my name to stupidfastdime . Anyways, i obviously need the engine to be pretty far back, but at what point would it be too far back?[/quote'] I think that is a question for the 510 list but I think if you can just push it back far enough to allow you to mount a radiator and cooling fans, you will be fine. Try to get most of the weight behind the strut towers. As jmortensen said " I'd remove pretty much all of the firewall, hack up the trans tunnel until you get it where you want it. Then rebuild around the engine and trans. IMO if you can't fit the radiator up front I'm kinda doubting that it's going to handle well at all. Too much weight too far forward. This is what the engine compartment looked like in my 510: As you can see in the pics, I pushed the radiator all the way forward until it was up against the grill. I had cooling issues. Even with a Griffin Aluminum Radiator and 4 Spal fans. I think cooling will be your biggest issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 Im really intrigued by your project, LS1 in a dime sounds ridiculously fun AND challenging! kudos to you for trying to pull it off...hope you stick with it. I honestly have not seen a 510s engine bay up close and personal for some time so my suggestions may seem a bit ignorant...forgive me for that. after looking at those pictures posted by qwik240z it looks as though thats going to be te biggest challenge of them all..how to keep it cool. I personally hate cutting the firewalls on cars, I once sat in a datsun roadster that had a LS1 conversion and was extremely disappointed in the position of the new peddle box, there is just something about having cramped feet, or having to sit slightly crooked in a car with my legs and feet cramped off to the left to clear some stupidly large transmission tunnel that irks me greatly. how low will the LS sit in the 510s engine bay? would it be possible to mount the radiator on top of the engine ala-WRX intercooler style? (again, In my head it sounds like it wouldn't work for a variety of reason but i felt it was worth mentioning.) what about cutting out the radiator support and making a new one out of tubing? you might be able to gain a few inches on either side and maybe even one or two up front, the headllights might get in the way so maybe a low and wide custom made radiator would do the trick. or you could just remove the inner headlights completely and leave the holes there for cooling. what about a full tube frame front end? would it be possible to mount two smaller radiators at opposing angles off to either side of the engine? 8/ maybe something like that? anywho, what a challenge! would love to see it in person and have a go at fitting that thing in there! goodluck with it, looking forward to seeing more progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustrocket Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 how low will the LS sit in the 510s engine bay? would it be possible to mount the radiator on top of the engine ala-WRX intercooler style? (again' date=' In my head it sounds like it wouldn't work for a variety of reason but i felt it was worth mentioning.) what about cutting out the radiator support and making a new one out of tubing? you might be able to gain a few inches on either side and maybe even one or two up front, the headllights might get in the way so maybe a low and wide custom made radiator would do the trick. or you could just remove the inner headlights completely and leave the holes there for cooling. what about a full tube frame front end? would it be possible to mount two smaller radiators at opposing angles off to either side of the engine? 8/ maybe something like that?[/quote'] I think the radiators on opposing angles to the side of the engine would suffer from being too close to the exhaust? I pondered the idea of cutting the radiator support and tubing it, which seems like a good option (i cant afford to tube frame the whole front of the car ) . I've seen in a a couple cars (particularly, a Triumph Spitfire on ebay a few years ago that had a 427 Cobra engine in there) with bottom mounted radiators. Unfortunately this weather is holding me up, as my whole swap is being done outside Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I think the radiators on opposing angles to the side of the engine would suffer from being too close to the exhaust? thats possible, you could open up the angle of the V to move them out away from the engine, something like 15 degrees? one other thing that I just thought of on the V mount dual radiators is tire clearance...I think it would probably work as long as you didnt want to turn just a slight oversight on my part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustrocket Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 What about v mounted radiators in front of the engine (so they both meet at the radiator support)? hmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 How about dual radiators in the wheel wells, Porsche 996 style? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparky Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 What about v mounted radiators in front of the engine (so they both meet at the radiator support)? hmm... exactly! How about dual radiators in the wheel wells, Porsche 996 style? I was also thinking of this, but was thinking of the setups in the original mini coopers. hmm, how much room is there behind the wheels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 There was a member here with a V8 Z that had the radiator in the regular spot, and then put either a heater core, or trans cooler ( don't remember ) on each side infront of the wheels. Said it really helped with cooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rustrocket Posted March 28, 2006 Author Share Posted March 28, 2006 What did he do about the size difference in tubing/piping from the radiator hose to the heater core/trans cooler? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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