rudypoochris Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 What I had in the works: 4 Barrel 4150 with mechanical secondaries.. Today I found: It all came off of an 88 convertable GT. The car even had a t-5!! The cats were eliminated and it had the largest cone filter I had ever seen. "Gollum" from HZ helped me get the stuff out. I wish I could have taken the whole motor (I have a 94, thats w/o the forged pistons and it has carb since my bro stole the EFI off it for his car) + trans. Infact it would have been cheaper! PnP charged me $380 for the works (it has 2 exhaust manifolds there as well, but still) if I had pulled the motor it would have been $335 + I got the block! Any way the real question is, am I better off with the EFI? Or should I just stay carbed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David K Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 It should depend on what county you live in, and if they require smog or not. Carb for ease, f/i for smog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudypoochris Posted July 22, 2006 Author Share Posted July 22, 2006 California, smog exempt. I would delete all the ECU's smog stuff. Just the shear weight of the EFI is pretty staggering compared to a carb, hehe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted July 22, 2006 Share Posted July 22, 2006 Don't forget, IF you run into issues with a cop pulling you over and saying "what? a ford v8 in a Z, that's illigal!" you're gonna be able to legalise a 302 carb'ed as long as you do it right. If you legalise an EFI 302 you're stuck and they might not ever let you go back to a carb motor. This is something we didn't go into when we were talking about smog laws. If a car is EFI with EVAP, EGR, CATs, ect. Then you can't change over to an EFI without all that let alone a CARB setup. Now, there aren't even many refs i've talk to that know a ton about pre carb cars going efi and knowing what the laws are about going back and such. It's all very complex, but there's the chance that if you go EFI, legalise it, that they might not let you go back to a carb setup becuase that would be agaist the laws for the car of wich the donor engine came from. Here's where it gets fuzzy, once you've done a motor swap, the laws aren't clear if the car is to be treated as the origonal car, or as the donor car the engine came from. Now, your car is origonally a carb'ed car, so any motor swap you do just has to meet the requirement of 'must be from a newer car'. If you wanted to legalise the swap you tell them the motor is from a 72 mustang. As long as the parts look OEM they wont' give you a hassle. They'll run it on the smog dyno to baseline the vehicle (wich goes into state records) and then if everything check out alright they'll make you up a nice little sticker that goes into your engine bay with some bar codes on it with the VIN and a section stating "72 Mustang 302". If you go this route (wich you might have to if you ever get pulled over by a nasty cop) then once it's all finished and legalised you're 100% carefree from that point on. Then you could nearly any part you want as long as it's not obviously racing parts (like a 8 inch tall lower intake, dual 4 barrel carb setup, ect) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jim Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 If you can't figure out how to assemble that Holley you have pictured then good luck getting the F.I to work.It would be much easier to go carb than F.I. There's no California smog for pre '75 cars so that shouldn't be a concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Ahem... Just becuase there's no smog doesn't mean they can't send you to the smog ref. Example: It's ILLEGAL to put a 427 in a 67' mustang that origonally came with a 302. Yes they were optional, but it's still illegal in CA. Do people get away with it? Yes. But here's our issue. If our friend here Chris gets pulled over and the cop sees a ford V8 in the engine bay he has every legal right to send him to the smog ref. The smog ref handles all illegal engine modification verification for the state. So the ref is gonna say "umm, you don't have an engine bar for a motor swap" and will either force you to legalise the swap or put the old motor back in. In the meantime you won't be legally allowed to drive your car. Sure he can just swap the motor back, but who wants to swap motors all the time just becuase cops are a PITA. It's less hassle in the long run for him to get it legalised and when he gets pulled over say "yes officer, that's all 100% legal and verified by the smog ref". Just my .02 cents (I'll guarentee all this info is correct as a friend of mine is a local ref that deals with the majority of swaps since other refs send cars to him nearly EVERY DAY. Also, I don't think it's that he CAN'T assemble the holley, it's weather he WANTS to assemble the holley. Wich is more worth the time and effort? EFI = stable, reliable, highly tunable. CARB = Less things to go wrong, easier to tune, less weight, ect. I personally can't answer that question becuase I don't have experience with both. As much as I'd recomend going carb'ed I don't have any real experience with it, so I can't attest to it's reliabilty and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jim Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Ahem... Just becuase there's no smog doesn't mean they can't send you to the smog ref. I think you are totally wrong about the smog issue. There are many pre '75 cars in California running around with engines of all sizes and brands which weren't available from the factory. You must be joking if you think I can be cited for driving my '62 Falcon which has a 351W swapped in or my '58 Morris with a 289. How about the guy with a '60 Stude running a 500 inch Cad or the numerous V8 powered 240Zs? Sorry you didn't understand my humor of the Holley vs F.I. issue either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buZy Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 I would go carbed. Less weight hassle and clutter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Ahem, yes I know I am corect. I know people that inforce these laws. And yes you can be cited for it, if the cop even knows the laws or even cares. Sorry I didn't understand your homur, I guess some smiles would help Look i'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, i'm just trying to educate people, becuase honestly the laws have become so convoluted that the people who are supposed to enforce the laws can't be educated well enough to do the job they're required to do. The better the people are educated about the laws of thier state the better they can deffend themselves 'IF' challenged by law enforcement. EDIT: Just for the sake of showing there is legal presidence for what I'm saying http://www.smogcheck.ca.gov/StdPage.asp?Body=/Geninfo/Publications/Engine_Change_Guidelines-Jan_1994.htm This link gives a BRIEF overview of engine overhaul/swap laws. It doesn't even go into the little details such as using the donor gas tank if it was fitted with any emission reducing device (a common issue for swap legalisers). Also not the article makes NO description of years it applies to, just smog inspection OR registration. So basically it applies to all cars with any sort of emission device, pre 76' or not. Technically PCV is an emissions device so even the Z cars fall into that catagory. As I state, if a cop knows his laws and wants to be a complete jerk he can write you up for violations if he sees anything wrong. http://www.roaminangelsinc.com/htmls/law2.html Here's a clip taken from that article: More generally, if a configuration precedes 1966, no exhaust emissions controls would be required. If the configuration precedes 1961, no PCV system would be required. If a range of model years applies to any particular engine configuration, vehicle owners will have the option to select the model year of emissions controls to be used. Again, i'm not trying to be some jerk or anything. I just think this should be an important factor. Sure he could probly get away with it. I even know smog refs that would TELL you to try to get away with it beucase they find alot of this california swap stuff to just be a bunch of BS. BUT I personally love it when a cop pulls you over, ask to see the engine, and you get to point out all the legal things in your engine bay. Maybe this isn't a problem where you live in CA, but around here if it's honda and it's noticable modified in any way I'll guarentee it's getting pulled over at least once a month for no real reason. This applies to all the modern imports and it's becoming more common with older cars as well. As far as I'm concered, if the cops wanna give you BS and try to nail you on stupid tickets you may as well do your best to give youself some leverage to make HIM look like the idiot, not you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.INSANE Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Modification laws still apply to pre 75 cars end of discussion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jim Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Arguing with a pundit is like rolling around in the mud with a pig,soon you figure out the pig likes it. But,I'm going to respond again anyway. One of the main reasons California car enthusiasts choose a pre '75 vehicle is to avoid the smog issues. I seriously doubt the guy who just swapped a 350 into a '74 Vega is going to run down to the local BAR office to document it. I have yet to hear of anybody local getting pulled over for the sole reason to see if an illegal engine swap existed.Ricer kids with late model Honda Civics might be pulled over for street racing and then get cited for illegal mods of the non exempt post '75 vehicle but a guy driving a big block powered '72 Camaro with a blower sticking out of the hood isn't going to get cited for an engine swap. When my swap of an '83 Ford 302 into a '72 240z is completed and up and running the last thing I'm going to do is run down to the local BAR office or DMV and have it documented. Not required and kinda foolish in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v8260 Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 if you get pulled over does the cop have the right to open the hood because it "sounds diffrent"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 actually yes v8260. And now in CA if you refuse to pop your hood or claim that the latch it "inoperable" they have the right to tow your vehicle for inspection. And just jim, not going to argue beucase you clearly stated that it's not your knowledge of laws you want to debate, but what you think is the right thing to do in the situation. And I used to hang out at the local ref and yes I DID see pre smog cars that where there becuase they were cited. Just a little food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.INSANE Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Just Jim: It doesnt matter even if it would never happen its still illegal to have a motor swap without it approved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
v8260 Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 would they still aprove of the swap if i removed all the smog stuff on a v8? My car is a 75 and it didnt have much smog stuff to begin with from the factory. It had a carbon canister. How often does it happen thou? has anyone here ever been cited? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.INSANE Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 would they still aprove of the swap if i removed all the smog stuff on a v8? My car is a 75 and it didnt have much smog stuff to begin with from the factory. It had a carbon canister. How often does it happen thou? has anyone here ever been cited? Leave it all on get it legalised and youll be fine then you can remove it and know that youll never have to worry about having to legalise it anyways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jim Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 V8260: Don't even concern yourself with the smog issue and recording the engine change. Your car doesn't require a smog check anyway.The cops aren't going to care what is under the hood. Gollum and Mr Insane: If you swapped the engines in your cars did you record this with the local BAR office?Wouldn't want any illegals running around. Mr Insane: Why bother getting the engine swap "legalized" and then going home and yanking off the smog stuff? Kinda defeats the pupose,eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.INSANE Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Mr Insane: Why bother getting the engine swap "legalized" and then going home and yanking off the smog stuff? Kinda defeats the pupose,eh? Becuase If he does get pulled over he will have to either swap in the L6 and take it back to the rep or put all the smog **** on and legalise it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollum Posted July 23, 2006 Share Posted July 23, 2006 Good point insane. If he legalised it and pulled the emission controls off there's a better chance the cop wouldn't notice (since there would be a plate saying "ford 5.0") and if he did notice it would be easier to swap out the emission stuff than the whole motor. I still think that if he did legalise it, it would be easiest to legalise it as a 72' 302. But again, it all comes down to a russian routlette. How long will it take to get pulled over by a cop that actually cares? And it it worth it to legalise the swap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudypoochris Posted July 29, 2006 Author Share Posted July 29, 2006 Look guys. When you swap in a newer motor into an older car you need ALL of the emissions components to make it legal. I am putting a 94 HO block in. My brother took the 94's EFI for his own use and I am left with out a fuel system. I know how to put that 4150 back together, and I am sure I can figure the EFI out since I got the wiring diagrams right here. Either way the swap won't be exactly legal since the 88 components are not correct for 94'. Fine, I will just hope a cop doesn't ask to see my engine. That all is of minimal importance to me. What matters to me is which is better to live with? Is the EFI really an upgrade performance wise? Will I have to get someone to reprogram the ECU to get it back to the same level as the carb? Those kind of things. I do care about the enviorment alot, and in either case I will keep the environment in mind, but I am mainly concerned with performance, not arguing over the legality of my swap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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