250 GTO Owners Thread

[mudjr12]

mclark999

You may have to hammer in the rear of the donor car (just a little where the tub makes contact in the rear) to allow the tub to move forward. I then used rivets on the front of the rear tub to fasten to door jam. Also adjustments were made to the doors themselves. I had to grind back on the rear door edges about 3/16's of an inch, re-weld the seam with a MIG, all of this before attaching door skins. I also used nylon rope dipped in resin between the original door and the door skin to bring the door skin out about 3/8" to better mesh up with the rear tub.

 

Those latches that you mentioned on the Factory Five 65 coupe are exactly what I am looking for. Any idea who makes them or where to locate? I checked the FF parts section of the 65, no luck.

 

I will get some detailed pics of my door jams and post

 

dj

[mclark999]

I was wiggling the hood a little today to see how well it lines up and the whole thing broke free from the mount.

 

It was fiberglassed with some layers to the mount. I'll email John Washington and see what the best way to line it up is before I reglue it.

 

Any ideas? What should I use to refasten it? I'll post some pics tomorrow.

 

The adventure continues....

 

 

Oh, I got my taillights from Opel Gt Source yesterday. They are going to look great. Any ideas how to cut a perfectly round 4 - 5" hole in the back?

 

What did you guys do to get your taillights lined up perfectly? Nothing square to measure from.

 

Thanks a bunch. It's great with so many of us building at the same time.

[mudjr12]

I used two floor jacks and a carpenters level on the rear to get it perfectly level then I used a chalk string to strike several level lines across the back, just take a few minutes and you can get it so close, no one will notice if your a little off. As far as the hood, pull the pins and take the hood all the way off, look carefully of how it was lined up before it broke and resin it back in place. That whole hinge alignment isn't the best, you will see others in this forum and other forums that just don't like it.

[Dan Juday]

Any ideas how to cut a perfectly round 4 - 5" hole in the back?

 

 

 

Hole saws cut perfect circles and they come in about every size up to about 6". Take your time and find the exact center of each hole and drill it with a 1/4" bit. Then finish it with the hole saw.

 

Sorry to hear about the hinge breaking loose from the bonnet. Talk to John. Unless you really forced it it should not have done that.

[Boy from Oz]

...I'm curious how you fastened your rear tub at the doors. I've tried hammering the door openings and it didn't work very well...

 

I am also interested in how people attached the rear panel at the door openings.

 

As you can see from one photo my panel presently includes a significant amount of fibreglass representing the door opening. It appears to me I need to remove the hatched area to make it all work - unlike the bloody idiot* who previously owned this car and tried to modify the entire door opening with a 10lb hammer to make the panel fit and allow the door to close.

 

I have been advised I need to lightly hammer the edge of the opening back about 5mm and attach the trimmed fibreglass panel. This look easier said than done as there would be a fair bit of strength in that folded edge.

 

My shell has also been hammered above the rear taillights to enable the panel to move forward and attach to the door opening but that may not be necessary if the 5mm modification is done.

 

Alternatively, I have also been advised to trim the fibreglass right back until there is no lip into the door opening, negating the issue of door clearance completely. I guess you run the risk of having the edge completely made of body filler and I wonder how durable that would be.

 

I would appreciate comments from experienced players on this one.

 

* I really shouldn't have called him a bloody idiot when a 'total bloody idiot' would be more appropriate. When he dismantled the car he threw all the bolts and nuts into one bucket and then lost the bucket!

[mudjr12]

Here are a couple of pictures of my rear tub connection. As I mentioned earlier, the rear end of donor had to be hammered in, to allow to move the tub forward. I used rubber grommets to attach rear of tub to frame, and riveted the front of the tub. I use to convert 914 Porsche's to 916 GT's, and used a similar process for the rear fenders. As you can see by the pictures of the doorskins, I did cut off the rear edges of the doors, and raised the new door skins out about 1/2 inch using nylon rope to meet flush with the rear tub. I will finish the doors and front tub mounting area using glass and putty. Hope this helps.

 

dj

[mudjr12]

Does anyone have the molds for the valences that go under the doors (see picture), or know of who might have them 4 sale? They should be easy enough to fabricate, but I would rather get them pre-fabricated if possible.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

dj

[mclark999]

Responding to Mudjr12:

Here are a couple of pictures of my rear tub connection. As I mentioned earlier, the rear end of donor had to be hammered in, to allow to move the tub forward. I used rubber grommets to attach rear of tub to frame, and riveted the front of the tub. I use to convert 914 Porsche's to 916 GT's, and used a similar process for the rear fenders. As you can see by the pictures of the doorskins, I did cut off the rear edges of the doors, and raised the new door skins out about 1/2 inch using nylon rope to meet flush with the rear tub. I will finish the doors and front tub mounting area using glass and putty. Hope this helps.

 

Are you planning on using the spray foam at all or will the rubber grommets and rivets be it for attaching the rear tub?

 

Thanks for the pics. How are you planning to finish the door edge where the rope is?

[mudjr12]

Yes I will definitely use the spray foam before final attachment. As far as the doors I will use glass impregnated as a filler, then finish off with bondo. As I mentioned above I've done it this way at least 3 times before, never had any breakaway or failures.

 

dj

[Boy from Oz]

Yes I will definitely use the spray foam before final attachment...

 

Could you please explain this process. I had assumed (dangerous thing to do I know) that the foam used would be an expanding type applied to the cavity after the rear panel was fitted. Thanks.

 

Regarding the valences under the doors, see post #97+, they may assist.

[Zerrari GTO]

Yes I will definitely use the spray foam before final attachment. As far as the doors I will use glass impregnated as a filler, then finish off with bondo. As I mentioned above I've done it this way at least 3 times before, never had any breakaway or failures.

 

dj

 

I've done some research and there are a few posts in this thread regarding spray foam for the rear tub. Spray foam holds moisture and is not the best type of product for this application. Two part marine foam does not retain moisture and seems to have better adhesion properties. Chelle posted a link to a company that sells this type of foam or I will be happy to get you the name of the company I purchased from.

[Dan Juday]

 

I have been advised I need to lightly hammer the edge of the opening back about 5mm and attach the trimmed fibreglass panel. This look easier said than done as there would be a fair bit of strength in that folded edge.

 

...

Alternatively, I have also been advised to trim the fibreglass right back until there is no lip into the door opening, negating the issue of door clearance completely. I guess you run the risk of having the edge completely made of body filler and I wonder how durable that would be.

 

 

Here I go butting into this thread again. First caveate: I have not installed a GTO or VR kit. I have installed two of John Washingtons other body kits on my Z.

 

Of all the places on the S30 unibody I would hammer (and I have hammered on mine and others) I would never whack on straight door jambs or door edges. I can't imagine the end results as far as the doors fitting and sealing correctly could be good unless you are a very experianced and talented body man.

 

While I understand that a rear tub is significantly different than a rear quarter panel I personally would install it in a similar manner when addressing the attachment at the rear door jamb area. All of Johns rear quarter kits (SubtleZ, 280YZ, 940Z) bond on top of the original steel quarter panel. None of them wrap around the edge of the door jamb incurring interferance with the door closing.

 

I would only use that lip for alignment purposes. 3M and others make some very good body adhesives today. The modern adhesives are far superior to the traditional epoxies. Once the rear tub is properly bonded I would simply grind the lip off and finish it with a good filler.

 

This is just my humble opinion from a guy who has spent far too much time un-doing things I never should have done in the first place!

[Boy from Oz]

Dan - If you are going to make comments based on your experience, knowledge and commonsense please feel free to 'butt in' whenever you like. Thanks, that all looks very practical.

 

I wonder if it is possible that someone in the States could contact John Washington and ask him how the kits were designed to be fitted around the doors? It's a bit difficult to figure out for those of us who buy secondhand uncompleted kits. Although we haven't paid directly for that information the more people who see completed kits the more chance there is to expand the market for kits.

[mudjr12]

I have not sprayed the foam in yet and plan on waiting for better weather (winter in New York). I did not know about the water proof foam, good feedback. I have 4 cans of the stuff from Lowes, after some of the swelling horror stories I have read I am not looking forward to the foam part. I have ports in which to shoot the foam between the side walls, I know it is necessary to keep things from vibrating around and holding the tub in place, but thats about it. As far as the wrap arounds on the front of the tub, I would expect that it would provide some stability when riveted in place (see attached picture of my 916 project). The rear tub on the 916 was similar in design. As far as the doors, after grinding back I used filler on the edges and then wrapped 100 something grit around a 12" steel rule and sanded the slot between the door and the jam. I am truly an amateur at this, just letting you know how I did it. Looking forward to seeing more pics of your projects.

 

dj

[Boy from Oz]

... All of Johns rear quarter kits (SubtleZ, 280YZ, 940Z) bond on top of the original steel quarter panel. None of them wrap around the edge of the door jamb incurring interferance with the door closing...

 

Dan - Did those other kits have a lip that was removed after fitting or were they supplied with just a straight edge? If they weren't supplied with a lip them perhaps the 250 GTO kit has a unique fitting technique, if they were supplied with a lip then the fitting technique could be universal. I would be good to get a definitive answer from John Washington.

[mudjr12]

Here are a few pics prior, during tub set up. Also included it the prefabbing of the filler cap for those of you that might be doing this, it will have to be done before or during tub setup.

 

dj

[Zerrari GTO]

I wonder if it is possible that someone in the States could contact John Washington and ask him how the kits were designed to be fitted around the doors? It's a bit difficult to figure out for those of us who buy secondhand uncompleted kits. Although we haven't paid directly for that information the more people who see completed kits the more chance there is to expand the market for kits.

 

I've been in contact with him recently about just this subject. He told me that the molds were outdated and his suggestion was to cut the lip off of the tub that wraps around into the door jamb. He then said to just use body filler to adhere the tub to the body...Well, I was not very satisfied with this answer/method...to say the least.

 

I wound up cutting the lip off and then I knocked the door jam back about 3/8"-1/2" for a little clearance. After this I splashed a couple of molds of the door jams so that I would have a "base" of glass to mold/adhere the tub to the body. The jamb molds follow the metal seam inside the jamb and blend very nicely. These fiberglass "jamb pieces" were then glued using 3M automix panel adhesive and then riveted to the body. The reason I went to such great lengths to create this fiberglass "base" was that after reading countless articles it seems that after time, even the 3M adhesive can delaminate due to differences in the expansion of the glass vs. the metal when the temp. changes. I also wanted to have a lot of surface area to glue the "jamb" pieces to the car and then glass the tub onto the body. I then glassed-in the tub from the inside and outside using alternating layers of stranded mat and cloth. The result is a very thick bond that should not separate from the body...and it should look very factory when all the molding/sanding is done.

[John Washington]

Hiya, Fellers,

 

Dan Juday was kind enough to clue me into this thread and said it might be helpful to you guys if I could put together a short (always difficult for me) note to bring everyone up to speed on my current thinking regarding these subjects.

 

The "current" version of the installation manual was written and first printed in 94. I've learned a lot since then, mainly that the best way to prove myself an ass is to claim to be an expert. As a friend says, an "expert" is defined as "a has-been leaking under pressure." I'm not an expert and my way isn't necessarily the best way. However, it has proven to be a good compromise between labor, cost, and quality. That's kind of my theme with all my parts. I can make some pretty exotic stuff. Carbon fiber, Kevlar, epoxy resins, autoclave baking, etc. But, I want to make stuff that regular folks like me can afford.

 

I have been including a few pages of supplemental information with the installation manual for the last couple of years. The information pertaining to the last page of this thread is the following:

 

The way I put the tubs on these days starts with the prep of the steel quarter panel. You absolutely must trim away enough metal to clear the wider (and possibly taller) tires under full bump, plus a little extra. I've had a few guys trim too little, then bond the tub on, and have to retrim with the tub on. That's not fun.

 

Ok, assuming you've done that...as someone referenced (and I apologize for not recognizing all the handles...you can email me directly if you like) I do consider the "returns" at the door end of the tub to be superfluous. I leave them on their because some guys still like to pound the door jambs back. I've seen a lot of quarter panels and tubs installed that way, I just don't like to do it anymore. Mainly I don't like to do it because of the work that is required to trim the door and to put the layers back together.

 

So, I cut off the return, which allows a little more flexibility in positioning the tub, too. Eventually, I may retool the whole tub. I'm doing some custom mods on one for a new customer right now. I like the way it looks, so now may be the time. If I do, I will eliminate those returns.

 

Once you have the tub dry fitted onto the car and you are happy with it, I recommend that you grind the quarter panel for a couple of inches just aft of the door jamb, as well as the shiny surface inside the tub in that same area. Use heavy grit disk and make it really rough.

 

There may be some confusion on what I've said previously about using body filler as a bonding agent. Just to be clear, I may have said regular body filler would be sufficient, however, I recommend Duraglass body filler, which is in essence catalyzed polyester resin with powdered fiberglass (not the kitty hair stuff with long strands) mixed in as a bulking agent. Regular "Bondo" uses a very soft bulking agent to make it easy to sand and very lightweight. Duraglass is very hard and much tougher.

 

Builders often ask about epoxy and other, more sophisticated bonding agents. Two problems with those. 1) They are very expensive compared to Duraglass. You can get a gallon of Duraglass for the same price as a cup of epoxy. 2) The expense will tend to make you use less volume than you really need for sufficient bond. The strength of a given bond is obtained by multiplying the bond strength per square inch by the number of square inches of bond. 2a) The registration between the old quarter panel and the rear tub in this area is not good because of the drastically different shapes. Thus, a lot of material is required to fill the gap.

 

I am not offended at all by those who think body filler of any type is not acceptable for their particular installation. I never said my way is the best way...it is simply a good compromise between labor, expense, and durability.

 

I'd recommend trying to get a half-gallon of bonding agent on each side in this area. You will wind up with a lot on the floor, but that's much better than having insufficient void filling, and filling with Durglass is a lot cheaper than trying to fill it with epoxy.

 

Once you have a good bond on the inside, I recommend you grind off the gelcoat on the outside for a couple of inches, and the paint in the door jamb for a half inch or so. Then do a wet layup with 3 oz. non-woven (random strands) of fiberglass around the corner. That will make a nice, tough bond and you can use Duraglass filler over the top to put a tough corner on it. Wait until you have the door skin installed (info on that follows) before you build up the final profile of the corner.

 

I use the aerosol urethane foam from Home Depot myself. I've had good luck with it, it forms a nice closed-cell matrix that keeps water out of the foam, and if sealed at the perimeter you shouldn't have to worry about water getting between it and the metal.

 

I'm sure the marine, two-part stuff is great. However, like with epoxy it is expensive. Plus getting it in all the voids is tough compared to squirting in the aerosol stuff. Again, I think aerosol foam is a good compromise.

 

Closing out the filled voids can be done in a variety of ways. I've always trimmed the foam flat, then glassed over it lapping onto the metal bits underneath to seal out water. However, it can be tricky because unless you have the shell upside down the weight of the wet glass tends to pull it off the foam. Other folks have used plastic sheet material, or created sheet metal close out panels that are sealed to the unibody and are attached with glue, screws, rivets and/or welding.

 

The door skins as I supply them are long enough to cover a door on which the back edge is trimmed off. Obviously, if you install the tub the way I've described above the will be too short. Easy fix. I split the door skin vertically, mounting the back half at the back edge of the door, and the front half at the front edge. This leaves a gap in the middle somewhere that can be easily filled with body filler and finished; or filled, glassed over, then finished.

 

I will retool the door skin one of these days, but until then anyone who wants their door skins "lengthened" can send them back to me and I'll do it for my cost, which is $50 each.

 

Someone mentioned a cover panel for the rocker area to bring it out to the same level as the door skin. I've never offered such a panel, but always just did a layer of fiberglass and/or body filler on the rocker to build it up. Lately, however, I've been cutting off the door skin and butting it to the last "ledge" on the bottom of the door (about 4 inches from the bottom) so that it doesn't add thickness at the bottom. This eliminates the need to build up the rocker.

 

OK, if that isn't clear as mud, please email me directly. If you do, feel free to post any of my responses to this thread. Obviously, I don't surf around here as much as I used to...but it isn't because I don't like to...I've just gotten REALLY busy!

 

Oh, one other thing...whoever mentioned the bonnet hinge came loose: That concerns me greatly. I will absolutely fix that at my expense if you can figure out a way to get it back to me.

 

I'll be in the Riverside area and then San Diego around the end of the month. I will probably have my trailer, so if you are in one of those areas or can meet me there, I can transport it at no expense to you. I'm tentatively planning to be at Knott's this year (same weekend as MSA), too, and can bring it back that far.

 

On the subject of Knotts, I don't really have anything to show this year. However, I have a number of customers in the area, including the Velo Yellow. So, I'm thinking of getting a bunch of spaces together so we can have a "gathering of the faithful" and display all the cars, en mass. I'm probably going to be able to get the spaces for whoever wants to come for about half the regular price. Who all wants to come??????

 

I hope this was helpful. Again email me directly if you have further questions.

[John Washington]

Another quick thought regarding the separated bonnet hinge:

 

I changed the design of the bonnet hinge about four years ago. Used to be a very simple, but not so robust flat hinge. I now have a tubular steel ring that bonds inside the nose and is captured by a couple of layers of fiberglass. It mates to a tubular steel hinge bracket that bolts to the old bumper mount locations.

 

I sent out a mailing at that time to all customers offering upgrades for my cost on those parts. If you have one of the old ones and would like to upgrade, the offer still stands.

 

About a year ago my guys bonded in a hinge ring incorrectly (off to one side a little). It took them about an hour to cut and chisel it out. I can't imagine one of the hinge rings of the new design just separating, so naturally I'm eager to hear which one this was...and get it fixed!

[Boy from Oz]

Re: Straight from the horse's mouth ...

 

John, thank you very, very, very much. And Dan, thanks for contacting John.