280Z28 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 :rotfl: I love even more how y'all are acting like this is normal behavior for adults. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakeshoe Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 I have a COMPLETE traditional 350 in my shop to include iron 2 bbl intake and carb, water pump, Delco starter, all accessories, pulleys, brackets, flexplate, and exhaust manifolds. I however only have an iron block LSx motor to compare it to. My only reasonably accurate method to measure would be to weigh my truck unloaded with full tank of gas, with the engine in the back, and again without it at a local grain scale that is calibrated and tested by the Texas Weights and Measures Dept. If someone has an LS1 locally in the North Texas area maybe we can get a good idea of what they weight COMPLETE, as I see this as being more useful. A bare block only tells part of the story. LS1 has a lightweight plastic intake, etc. Gen I doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted November 1, 2006 Administrators Share Posted November 1, 2006 Let me start by appologising for wasting bandwidth but I feel like I'm at work with the politics getting in the way of progress in reading this thread. I took the original post for what it's worth as it was presented. To me it was just to provoke a thought process that just because 'everyone' thinks something is true you should still validate it for yourself. Cameron Very well said. Thank you, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strotter Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Crispy Chicken Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 ah hahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritech-z Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 *edit* the point was made, so I took the picture out of this post to avoid further controversy *edit* Sorry, I thought this was hilarious, and needed sharing to keep the mood light. I'll take it down if it's beyond the limits of marginal taste...Rock on Paul and Ron! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3079893 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 lol, u actually carried a bare motor into a supermarket (see how far your immature bickering push this man everyone!) If you take another motor there again, promise me you will video tape the experience, and upload it on youtube or something for us all to enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s3079893 Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 btw veritech i think your gunna go to hell for that one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 s3079893... I think that's somewhat overstated... though the S.O. poster might be a bit much:wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted November 1, 2006 Administrators Share Posted November 1, 2006 First off, Kudos to anyone brave enough to carry engine parts into a supermarket to weigh them. (I still chuckle just thinking about it.) Also, thank you for going to such lengths for quality accurate data. Good work. Ok guys. I’m sure I’ll get flamed for this and if so, great! It’s been a few years since I’ve been roasted, so I guess I’m about due… I personally don’t understand what the hang up is over the weight of the individual parts such as block only, cranks only, etc?! Ok, I can see where that bit of information would be a neat piece of Trivia to have for bench racing in the shop. But knowing the weights of the individual rotating and reciprocating parts is pretty much useless in comparing the overall weights as both engines HAVE to have these parts and there really aren’t many options available to alter the weights of those parts to a point that is substantial enough to warrant weighing them individually. Sure, the BARE block of the LS-x weighs considerably less, HOO RAY!! Uh, I mean, HOO cares?! Comparing the weights of just the bare block is like trying to compare “HP per valve” or “HP per cubic Millimeter” of your V8-Z with some 16 year old and his Honda! Means diddly squat! What really matters is how much does the “engine” weigh, i.e. the sum of those parts, (we’ll get to “sums” in a minute). So in comparing two similar yet different power plants, (“weight differential” WAS the theme of this thread, not “absolute weight”), why not just leave the parts we really don’t have much control over in regards to their weight, “in” or “on” the engine, and compare that as a whole? Things like intake manifolds, headers, starters, etc can be quite different in weight so those can be a part by part weight. Really, how many of you guys are just installing BARE blocks in your cars and driving them that way? If we could, then just the weight of the bare block alone would have merit. I personally could care less if a block weighs only 5 lbs if the rest of goodies like the oil pan and water pump are going to offset its overall weight. To me, it is the overall weight that matters. Power to “overall” weight ratio is what accelerates our cars, not power to “block” weight ratio. Now on to “Sums”… Lets say you get all these individual weights such as block, crank, rods, pistons, cam, oil pan, etc etc etc. Then are you going to add up those weights to satisfy your hunger for wanting to know what the “total engine” weight is? With so many parts there is just that many chances for error, not too mention are you guys going to measure the weight of each and every part down to the gram? Most likely the weights will be rounded to the nearest pound if that, and that is if the scale being used is even accurate to +/- a pound, (Cumulative error now). Basic statistics here guys. The engine needs the crank, pistons rods, cam etc, and for 95% of the builds that we are doing, all those cranks, cams, pistons rods, etc for a given engine whether it be Traditional SBC or Gen III LS-x, will be very close to other available options for that same engine. The original point of this exercise, (this thread), was that there seemed to be lofty claims of massive weight savings, and if that is true, great, nothing would make us happier, but we had a hard time seeing it. Sure there could easily be more than a few pounds weight savings, but we are not seeing the 55-90 lbs differential as claimed. Maybe someone will come along and either support our findings or find that 90 lb weight savings that we missed with comparably built/setup short/long blocks using one scale that is accurate, not just individual parts and then adding up those weights. If absolute weights are what you guys want, why not just start a thread in that theme? This thread was started as differential, not absolutes. Absolute weights of these engines IS worthy of its own thread entirely. BRAAP,…. out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Hehehe... Good thread if we can get some weights that represent what the finished product will be like... ie. installed operational 1970-72 S-30 Z car... I have gone to extremes to prove a point... Love you JM... inspirational... My take on this is that there are too many other factors to worry about the differences in engine weights... Stick with me here... No matter what any component weighs... every Hybrid Z is a unique object... they are not comparable the way a factory produced automobile can be compared with other factory produced models... The sub 100 pound difference in engine weights is peanuts compared to the weight differences from modified/missing components in the rest of the car... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- You also have to consider that in the early days peops were snatching stock V-8 engines out of the JY with relatively low miles and just stuffing them in datsuns... the engines they used had cast iron heads, water pumps, manifolds,etc,etc,etc... they WERE HEAVY... by any standard... they most certainly added weight to the car... That is exactly what the guys using the modern LSx engines are doing... they are taking a factory V-8 package and grafting/stuffing it into a Datsun... no doubt the junk yard LSx engines are considerably lighter than the junk yard cast iron V-8s(with cast iron everything)... Where this goes astray is that you are not considering that the SBC 350s are functionally obsolete... no one(except in Mexico and Russia) builds a low horsepower completely cast iron motor(cast iron everything)... damn near everyone who has swaped a SBC350 in the last 2 decades has used aftermarket everything.. they built a special purpose engine that weighed CONSIDERABLY LESS that the JY pulled (cast iron everything) v-8 of the old days... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- My personal take on this is that if you want a super performing package that is ~"relatively"~ lightweight, starts and runs beautifully.. go for the LSx JY motors and T-56 tranny... it is relatively easy to use the components in stock form(or nearly so)... your wife might drive the LSx car... If you really want to maximize performance and keep weight to an absolute minimum.. then a fire breathing, built up SBC 350 with a built WCT5 is the money... and don't expect your wife or girlfriend to be impressed... they wont get near it... especially if you start it... I chose the SBC350 WCT5 for my hybrid project... call me thick headed... but I have considered the options... there is very little difference in cost... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Ohhh.. . The T56 is damn near twice the weight of the WCT5... But.. the weight is slung below the hubs(low in the car) and it is rear biased weight which improves balance... adding subframe connectors and a lot of other modifications such as heavy guage replacement floorpans WILL ADD WEIGHT... but again.. it is all added BELOW THE HUBS... and toward the rear of the car... These kinds of things add total weight but can actually lower your center of gravity and improve balance CONSIDERABLY!!! That is a double edged sword.. or a good side to a bad thing(weight)... The SBC 350 with the lightweight WCT5 is adding weight primarily to the front axle... which means you have to relocate the battery and shift more weight to the rear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buZy Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Crispy, THAT IS EXACTLY what I was looking for... Now lets get a standard 4bolt main bare block and a standard LT1 bare block and weigh them. I agree! Now are are making progress! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
that240guy Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 the t56 is not nearly twice the weight. The t56 that comes out of a stock 1998-2002 camaro weighs 108 lbs. The t5 weighs 75 pounds. This information is directly from Tremec's website. www.ttcautomotive.com For those who aren't versed in Mathematics, the t56 weighs a mere 33 pounds more than a WCT5 and can handle 140 more lb ft of torque. IMO the t5 should not be an option when building a fast Z. A tko would be a good option, but not a t5. But the TKO weighs 105 lbs. And btw a stock ls1 would break a WCT5 so I dunno what kind of ill-performing SBC you are talking about that makes enough power to scare your girlfriend out of driving it. My stock ls1/t56 runs 12 flat on the factory sized 195/60/14 tires and I wouldn't hesitate to hand my mom the keys to my car and she wouldn't mind driving it. It idles and runs like a dream, has a perfect 50/50 weight balance, weighs less than stock and gets 32 mpg on the highway. IMO the perfect car! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LS2 V8 Miata Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 I appreciate everybody taking serious interest in this thread's premise, but I gotta tell ya, Crispy Chicken is OFF THE HOOK!! When I saw those pictures of the LS block on the supermarket scales and the look on that perturbed women's face . . . Priceless! I almost fell outta my chair laughing:lmao: Nobody should ever take themselves too seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike kZ Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Hey Crispy Chicken, I hope you're not carring those blocks, and trannys by yourself? Remember what happened to Pete!! http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=110370 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 the t56 is not nearly twice the weight. The t56 that comes out of a stock 1998-2002 camaro weighs 108 lbs. The t5 weighs 75 pounds. This information is directly from Tremec's website. www.ttcautomotive.com For those who aren't versed in Mathematics, the t56 weighs a mere 33 pounds more than a WCT5 and can handle 140 more lb ft of torque. IMO the t5 should not be an option when building a fast Z. A tko would be a good option, but not a t5. But the TKO weighs 105 lbs. And btw a stock ls1 would break a WCT5 so I dunno what kind of ill-performing SBC you are talking about that makes enough power to scare your girlfriend out of driving it. My stock ls1/t56 runs 12 flat on the factory sized 195/60/14 tires and I wouldn't hesitate to hand my mom the keys to my car and she wouldn't mind driving it. It idles and runs like a dream, has a perfect 50/50 weight balance, weighs less than stock and gets 32 mpg on the highway. IMO the perfect car! Actually When I sold my 1995 T56, It weighed in at 138#. That included the shifter, bellhousing, blockoff plate for the flywheel, and shift fork. That was at the shippers... They made me pull it out of the crate we built to ship it in. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjhines Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 QUOTE: ""the t56 is not nearly twice the weight. The t56 that comes out of a stock 1998-2002 camaro weighs 108 lbs. The t5 weighs 75 pounds. This information is directly from Tremec's website. www.ttcautomotive.com For those who aren't versed in Mathematics, the t56 weighs a mere 33 pounds more than a WCT5 and can handle 140 more lb ft of torque. IMO the t5 should not be an option when building a fast Z. A tko would be a good option, but not a t5. But the TKO weighs 105 lbs. And btw a stock ls1 would break a WCT5 so I dunno what kind of ill-performing SBC you are talking about that makes enough power to scare your girlfriend out of driving it. My stock ls1/t56 runs 12 flat on the factory sized 195/60/14 tires and I wouldn't hesitate to hand my mom the keys to my car and she wouldn't mind driving it. It idles and runs like a dream, has a perfect 50/50 weight balance, weighs less than stock and gets 32 mpg on the highway. IMO the perfect car!"" It is comments like these that get peops fired up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 OK, that's enough. We're going to start a FAQ instead of keeping this thread going. If you have FACTS to offer (read: parts on an accurate scale) please add to the FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikelly Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 You guys can't stop can you? Thanks for forcing us to lock what could have been a decent thread. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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