problems limiting results on the hobby

[grumpyvette]

that problem is a serious lack of money we can afford to spend on car parts due to lifes little expences like food,rent,wives ETC.and wasting the money we do get.

 

theres four major areas/variations, I see guys screw up in frequently

 

(1) the DEAL, where guys buy parts that don,t match simply because they get a good price,(usually on used parts that failed to work on a buddies car)

 

(2)lack of planning

where guys buy parts seemingly at random as the money becomes available, that don,t match or ones that may look good but can,t work well togeather, usually as a result of magazine articles,half understood, where they failed to duplicate the WHOLE COMBO

 

(3)money burning a hole in your pocket!!

this is where youve saved $1100 toward the purchase of the $1900-$3000 heads you know you need and the "DEAL" appears, you figure that youll get the cheaper parts and get the cam,intake,ETC. and be better off...

 

(4) building the WRONG CAR,youve always wanted a 600 hp big block,in a 1965 GTO, or 1967 corvette,1969 camaro ETC. but your pouring money into building a 1980 caprice with a 355 simply because you have one and don,t think you could ever afford your dream goal

 

so I was wondering if anyones got any good ideas as to work from home jobs,hot stock market tips, and care to share them??

or the older guys can point out the ERROR of HASTE and not sticking to the PLAN vs RESEARCH AND BUILDING IT CORRECTLY

its more realistic to find a source of income to finance the hobby thru a second source/(job)

any suggestions gentelmen???????

 

remember you can either throw MUCH greater amounts of money at a build where alot is wasted,or learn to do it slowly and correctly too plan on a budget

[cygnusx1]

...and when it comes time to bust some knuckles...Work area, tools, techniques:

 

You need to have a place that is dedicated to working on the car. It must be convenient and organized because there will be many other roadblocks. Workspace should NOT be one.

 

Tools must be organized and available nearly instantly. I don't understand how people intend to work on a car from a tin toolbox tray packed 10" deep with random, scattered, rusty, tools. It's just NOT conducive to success. Buy, rent, borrow the RIGHT tool. Don't waste time with a hammer and chisel.

 

I have found over the years that work technique is also very important. Don't be afraid to unbolt six or seven parts to gain better access to the part you need to work on. In other words, get everything out of the way before you start working on the main problem. It's like a warmup and it make everything much easier later. If a part has six bolts on it, I always attack the most difficult bolt first when I am least tired and frustrated.

 

Keep these points in mind and you can keep frustration in check. Frustration will kill a project quickly.

[V8_DatZun]

there are always sponsors... but then you have that problem of "your car is not complete enough for us to sponsor you.. what if you dont finish it?" well im sittin here thinking "if you GAVE me the part i'd be ONE STEP CLOSER!!!" i have no problem endorsing someone that is generous enough to give me a product, BUT its just the problem that no one wants to sponsor a z that is in the process of being rebuilt... they want to wait until you have a nice show car... and THEN "hey we'll give you our tires if you put our name on your car" well I ALREADY HAVE TIRES THANKS FOR NOTHING!!! sorry for the rant... lol sponsorship works like everything else in life i guess.... you get the help when you've already done all the hard work then other people want to take credit for it...

 

i too would like to find a work at home income that would give me more time for the project, and more money to spend on it.... sound like a scam to me already. lol

[Guest Mike]

Here are two suggestions if you want all the $$$ needed to feed your automotive lust... 1) Eat beans and rice and live in a trailor park for the rest of your life, or 2) Inherit a gazillion dollars.

[Michael]

Actually, I’d say that the biggest problems limiting results in this hobby are NOT financial and not directly related to poor planning. They are:

 

1. General lack of mechanical skill. In our society “working with your hands” is an increasing endangered pursuit. Never mind hot-rods, V8 swaps or high performance; how many people today even know how to change the engine oil? It’s hard to learn about cars, especially if you are busy with a career and a family, and don’t have friends/neighbors/relatives who can mentor you in auto mechanics. So you end up undertaking projects way outside of your level of competence - which brings me to…

 

2. Unrealistic expectations; biting off more than you can chew. In my mind’s eye I wanted to build a drag-racing terror, and made plans to fulfill this vision. Years later I realized that the scope of such a project was too unwieldy. Instead of enjoying a car that could be made to run 15’s reliably, I tried to build a car that runs 11’s - and which has yet to even visit the drag strip. The result is…

 

3. Fear and shell-shock. With unrealistic expectations and lack of skill comes failure. Now I’m afraid to tighten a bolt, lest I strip the threads. Even when 95% of the project is already complete, one collapses in nervous spasm - spasm that the voices of doubt were right all along, that this whole hot-rod thing is mere vanity and self-delusion.

 

What is the solution? Well, I contend that the solution is to band together. Sure, this site is a great resource, and sure, I’ve benefited immensely from direct help from several members here. But consider the survey that we had a year or two ago, about whether most folks work alone or in a partnership: the vast majority said “alone”.

 

Without pushing too far into a political discussion, I would argue that ultimately what ails our hobby is the general alienation and fragmentation of society.

[grumpyvette]

Id point out that YOUR skill level depends a great deal on both YOUR determination to get the job done correctly and the group of guys you hang out withs SKILL LEVELS.

if you hang out with a bunch of guys that don,t have a clue or the tools skills and determination to succeed your at a HUGE disadvantage

WE can,t change the past,we ALL, learn some lessons the hard way,

its learning to not repeat mistakes and looking at other peoples mistakes and learning from those screw-ups that advances the hobby and helps you prevent FUTURE problems

 

heres the secret, if your not actively working toward your SPECIFIIC goal WITH a check list, and having done the research to make sure it will work once its done, your very unlikely to ever reach/attain your goal

 

it helps a great deal set a goal,to write up a check list,with ALL necessary parts, collect the parts ON that LIST and not get OFF COURSE.

 

lets assume youve always wanted

a 700 hp 572 bbc,

 

http://electronic-pr.com/pr/text/new_wp_369.htm

 

 

 

 

 

a 4l80E trans

 

http://www.transmissioncenter.net/4L80E.htm

a DANA 60 rear

four wheel disc brakes

and 4 weber carbs on that big block

http://www.carburetion.com//Weber/wildv8.asp

 

 

stuck into a 1967 COBRA replica

 

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/roadster/roadsterkit.html

 

ONE OF MY BUDDIES DREAM GOALS

 

first step,make damn sure you really want to reach the goal, RESEARCH everything you can on similar cars and drive trains

list IN DETAIL all the components and possiable sources

step two, budget what ever you can EVERY week into a fund, and sell off anything (speed parts, old cars,)you currently don,t need to REACH that goal.

get a check list, start making contacts amoung suppliers and club members that may help you reach the goal,DON,T BUY STUFF THAT IS NOT ON THE LIST OR SPEND CASH THATS NOT NECESSARY on other GOAL:S

the time to change

whats ON the list

or find what parts work correctly is BEFORE BUYING PARTS

 

"So what am I to work on/play with for the next 33 years while I save up the money, and where do I learn the skills? "

 

 

 

 

your hardly the first guy to point out that "problem" or be the first guy working on an extremely tight budget, or not having all the skills, but If you joint a couple local CORVETTE or HOTRODDERS clubs and spend a good deal of time helping guys in those clubs work on THIER cars WHILE making LOTS of friends and contacts, youll be very surprized at the amount of parts ON YOUR LIST that will pass bye your nose durring the next few months/years and the skills you can pick up or find someone that has, ESPECIALLY if your very helpful and let it be known exactly what your working towards

it goes back to making a specific list and sticking to it EXACTLY

you may not have the cash for much but if you visit enought salvage yards and talk with and help enought people ypoull quickly find a good deal of the parts youll need, its all the small stuff that adds up and takes time anyway, so get that detailed list of parts, do the research, and joint the local guys with similar goals.....sure It can take years, Ive spent 5 years just getting about 2/3rds of the parts for my bbc engine swap in my corvette, but at least I KNOW exactly what I need and have accumulated a good deal of it so far and you can also!!!

its HARDLY rare to find guys willing to swap you parts they don,t need for HELP on thier projects, Ive gotten several complete used bbc engines and a 4L80E trans and several rear end assemblys, corvette parts,ETC. that way over the years...you may not have much use for lets say a 455 buick engine, or dodge 440, but if some guys willing to give it to you for rebuilding his engine or trans ETC. its almost sure to find a new home and be converted in money toward your project goals, and if your INTO the GROUP, and WILLING TO HELP OUT OTHERS, DEALS LIKE THAT WILL APPEAR....JUST don,t think you need to get PAID for all work, the object is BOTH gaining PARTS and GAINING SKILLS AND FRIENDLY CONTACTS in the hobby

making a good friend out of a guy with a few assets like a tig welder or a lift for the time it takes to do a few small projects like brake jobs is time well invested

[Guest Mike]

Hey Michael... Yes, our society is fragmented. Let's band together as you said. We must all help each other, right? To start, Michael, I'll need a fresh all-forged 434 SBC stroker with all the trimmings... umm, next I'll need a built T56 and performance clutch (installed), hmm... a complete suspension upgrade with adjustable coilovers, and a four-disc brake upgrade, a little body work and a really nice paint job, err... TWO sets of wheels (one wire set for show and one light-weight set for the track), a full set of tires for each set of wheels (drag slicks for the track wheels), an interior upgrade would be cool, and (what the heck) a nice stereo system (but no giant subs, okay?).

 

Think you can swing that for me, Michael??

No??

I'm hurt... I really am:cry2:

 

JUST KIDDING, Michael!! I agree with you on just about every point. Our society has really gone to the dogs, hasn't it? I think it's because we're all sick of being used and cheated. (Sorry for the political statement)... our heads of state and big business cheat and use use every day. This mind-set has trickled down to the masses and too many of us now do the same thing to each other. It's a dirty rotten shame.

 

Okay all you gosh darned upbeat goody-two-shoe positive-minded optimists... go ahead and blast me. I'm ready:mad:

[grumpyvette]

stop bye my garage and see what Ive accomplished on a VERY limited budget and youll be impressed, yeah it took 40 years to get where Im at in tools and skills and work area, but Ive progessed steadily, learned a great deal, had several competative race cars, and Im still married and remain finacially solvent and at least partly sane ...so it can be done!

REMEMBER this is a HOBBY not the MAIN GOAL in your life, remaining financially solvent, mentally stable,and providing a good home for your family comes far ahead of building a toy to play with.

if it takes you 3-12 years to build EXACTLY what you want, your not at any huge disadvantage, its the process and the skills aquired and the finished product ,not the time it took that matters.

BTW NEWS FLASH!!!

nothing you ever build will be cutting edge competative simply because you don,t have the time or money to compete with guys that do it full time with mega buck budgets, so relax and enjoy building what your ideal car is and don,t get crazy, a nice looking and driveable 10-12 second car is a reasonable goal

[Guest Mike]

GRUMPY... Yes, little-by-little, easy-does-it, patience/persistence, reasonable goals... all very good advice. BUT I WANT THE BEST OF EVERYTHING NOW, NOW, NOW!!!

[grumpyvette]

your the WRONG AGE AND SEX and unlikely to have ENOUGHT OF the correct clients to blackmail , to generate the cash flow necessary, youll be forced to go the slow steady route

[Guest Mike]

Grumpy... oh, okay...

[m1noel]

Its taken me years and more years just to start this project, a lot of it went in to just deciding what I really wanted. One thing I did do right when I was younger was this- When something needed fixed, if at all possible I would do it myself- buy the book, buy the right tools to do the job. That way I would always have the book, the tools, and the knowledge to do that job or a similar one again. Oh yeah, when in doubt, have a good circle of experts to ask.

[Ansel Marrow]

I agree with a lot shown in this thread. When I got my z, all I knew how to do was change the oil. Now, I can take off/put on a waterpump, do exhaust stuff, time the engine etc. Im about to tackle the wiring of the car, which means me stripping all of the wires alltogether, and rewiring the whole car one system at a time. I have read extensively about the subject, and Im taking the project on one problem at a time. I realize through money and time that my car will never be the powerhouse i wanted, but it can still be a better car than it was.

[bschiltz]

Great thread, guys!

I agree whole heartedly with the points made here, but I have to say there's a huge psychological factor as well. I'm only 17 but am in progress in a SBC swap in my 79 ZX. I NEVER would have expected that I'd be doing an engine swap now, or ever in my life to be honest. That said, it's been a hard road to where I am now. No one in my family has much automotive experience beyond basic upkeep and I'm working out of a single stall garage that's also storage for my family. I don't have any tools beyond a socket set and wrenches. I don't know how many times someone has asked how much money I have in the car and when I respond $2500-$3000 and still spending, the say "You could have bought a nice car for that much" The one HUGE help I've found is one of the auto-shop teachers at my school. He has a 510 that he's set up for auto-x and rally and knows datsuns pretty well. I guess I'm rambling now but I guess if there's one point I'd like to make, it is this; Take it slow, talk to everyone you can, READ READ READ, plan ahead and when you feel down just walk away for a while and remind your self that it's all worth it in the end.

[Michael]

My car is basically done - it just needs maintenance. Fuel spills out of the venturis because the float level is too high, and I don’t know how to set the float level! Or more precisely, I am afraid to experiment because my engine is precious and I’m afraid to mess it up - so I don’t even start it - it sits in my garage, the mocking in its silence. Every weekend after work I do laps in the garage, walking around the car in stupefied wonder, like a tribal shaman mumbling incantations to the statue of the tribal god, afraid to approach lest touching the statue is instant death.

 

So at this point I’m not talking about planning a project or even building a car - I’m talking about basic maintenance.

 

If I paid Grumpy $100,000 to build me a nice drag car, that wouldn’t do me any good, unless I also bought Grumpy the house next to mine and a plane ticket to Dayton, so that he could move here and be my on-call mechanic. And my present neighbor unfortunately isn't Grumpy - at least, not with a capital "G".

 

But what do I do with my Hybrid - take it to Midas? Or do I have AAA tow it 90 miles to Denny’s house (under his tutelage the engine was built)? When I was 14 I replaced the head gasket on my 1976 Toyota Corona, but you know what, I would not even consider doing that sort of job now - I would be too terrified of installing the timing chain off by a tooth, or torquing the head bolts in the wrong order.

 

And the worst part is that the more I learn about engine THEORY the more I’m baffled and stultified in pursuing engine PRACTICE! If you realize just how many g’s a connecting rod “pulls”, just how many psi the oil film in a journal bearing actually supports, well then, the overwhelming wave of awe is nearly a religious epiphany. How can I, a nondescript sap with a solitary Craftsman tool box bought on clearance, ever hope to harness these secrets of nature? Whereas when I was 14, or even 24, it was: “Hey, engines - no big deal, stuff rotates, stuff reciprocates, rotate the dizzy to change timing, spray some starting fluid if it’s coughing - and is that a 12mm bolt - yeah, looks like it - yeah, I think I’ll use vice grips”.

 

Bottom line: initial setbacks + working alone = too psychologically scarred to enjoy this hobby. The problem has NOTHING to do with money! Which is why I am seriously thinking of just buying a Z06 and calling it quits.

 

 

I felt much the same after the stock market collapse of 2000-2002. But in investment there was much companionship; everyone at the office got hosed in their 401-Ks. Some lost much more than I. Investment professionals got burned together with amateurs. Beyond the hype and false laments, there was real reason to believe that I was not the only fool. The camaraderie gave cause for tenacity. I did not withdraw the vestiges of my portfolio and sew dollar bills into my mattress. Nearly 7 years later my investments have not yet fully recovered, but they are doing vastly better than I dared hope in those dark months of the early winter of 2003.

 

What is missing in the hot rod hobby is a continuity of mentorship from veteran to novice. On HybridZ we interact through the computer screen, and to be sure, this is incomparably useful. But we have some 6000 members across 2.5 million square miles (counting just the U.S.). There are maybe 10 people on this site who I could call and ask for advice, but it’s not the same as a daily reassuring pat on the back that indeed I’m tightening the correct 12 mm bolt, with vice grips or the proper wrench.

[383 240z]

The biggest obstical I had to overcome was getting off my fat A$$ and doing something. I researched the project to death, and got many of the needed parts aquired, but never was able to find the time to really work. I found a real cool guy here local to me who has a v-8 Z. and we set up a schedual, every wed after work we would plug away on our z's one week mine one week his. I got a TREMENDIOUS amount of work done that way. Now that winter has started to set in the Z's are mostly back in their cacoons, but I do have a heated space that I can work on the smaller projects, like rebuilding my heater box, and dash.

 

Michael- To alay your fears of killing your engine by adjusting your floats, Just DO IT, the worst that will happen is you will set them to low and it wont run, or you will set them to high and it will leak, but in the end you will learn how to do it, and I'm sure their are SEVERAL people here that will walk you thru it step by step. I have the same sort of fears now that I am a bit older and some say wiser. I still cross my fingers after changing a set of plugs, it took me three days to work up the nerve to turn the key after my first Megasquirt install, have some faith in yourself man!! Keith

[Paz8]

Another great thread from Grumpy,

I guess us OLD GUYS had it easier, life was simple, less distractions, no video games, DVD or on demand movies. We learned how to spin wrenches by hanging out with older guys and watching how it was done. When we were 16 or alittle younger we bought a clunker for a couple hundred bucks and everyone helped out to fix our first car. We learned how to rebuild parts not just replace stuff because we never had enough money. Later as we got older and out of school we had jobs and money and then built drag or circle track cars, our daily driver cars were newer and faster, but we still worked on them every chance we could get.

And that is how we obtain the automotive and mechanical knowledge we have today. Can anyone else relate to this???

[grumpyvette]

"Can anyone else relate to this???"

 

sounds like you were there with me at times

[kuntry]

Well Paz8, Im not sure what you consider older (Im 35), but it sounds like I learned the same way you did. My first car was a POS '71 comet. I rebuilt the straight 6 in auto mechanics, and my father and I did the bodywork and he painted it in our garage. I learned the feeling of doing something yourself. If I had $100,000 theres no way I would pay Grumpy to build me a car (no offense), but I would definatley ask him for advise on how to build it myself. There are several things Im doing for the first time with my Z.... building a frame, (extensive) bodywork, interior, exterior... the list goes on and on. But when Im done, Ill be able to look back and when anyone asks who built the car I can tell them I did everything. Im not naive enough to think that Im going to have a show car when Im finished, or be able to outrun Japtin at the drags (although it would be nice). Im going to make mistakes and have to redo my work, but thats all part of it.

 

As far as the main reason for this thread... money is an issue, but since Im doing most of the work myself, its really just the materials I need. My biggest constraint is time right now. We've been putting in anywhere from 10-13 hr days, when I do get time off, Im so tired that all I want to do is sleep. With a 4 day weekend, Im hoping to get alot done. My other biggest problem is the "while Im at it" virus thats going around the site..lol. This car was brought home sept 17th, with the idea that I would be driving it for Halloween.... which became Thanksgiving.... which became Christmas... which is becoming the beginning of next year.... which damm sure better not extend past March 25th (sez). I blame all of you for this... because of your good ideas and willingness to take the time to post step-by-step instructions. Once I get done, Id love to be one of the guys people come to and ask how I did this or what did I do for that. Since I cant repay the help that you guys have given, Ill gladly repay the debt by helping someone else thats never done this before.

[Guest Mike]

I can relate to being tired and feeling crappy all the time. This and other commitments are REALLY slowing me down!!