Administrators BRAAP Posted January 24, 2007 Administrators Share Posted January 24, 2007 Ah, sort of like this Eggers & Vickers? I was originally going to massage this L-6 Mech FI ITB intake for EFI on my personal car, but since sold it to a member on this forum that is doing something similar, but adding boost as well… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoustonZ Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 After lots and lots of work, I finally have some good models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Ben has a good point in that Lucas Slide Valves have been used on Datsun Sixes for years in Europe. No obstruction whatsoever. The flow difference is pretty dramatic. When you look at the flow numbers for the Lumenition Barrel Throttle Assemblies a 45mm unit flows comparably to a 48mm Butterfly, but has (due to the way they machine the tip-in section of the barrel) tip-in characteristics of a 40mm Butterfly unit to about 25% throttle. It's suprisingly non-linear on the opening! Makes for a nicely modulated throttle off-idle. For all out, a Slide Valve or Barrel Throttle is current state of the art for Aftermarket systems. Of course, with the DEVAS system, infinitely adjustable valve timing would negate the necessity for a throttle plate altogether. All throttling would be accomplished through valve events. Don't get me started! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoustonZ Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 Ben, do you have any pictures of that setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoustonZ Posted March 28, 2007 Author Share Posted March 28, 2007 Alright, construction has started. I machined the butterfly plates today at work. The ID of the runners is 32mm. This will give a total surface area of 4800mm vs. 2800mm when using a single 60mm tb. As soon as my aluminum stock gets here I'll machine the runners and flange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Ah, sort of like this Eggers & Vickers? I was originally going to massage this L-6 Mech FI ITB intake for EFI on my personal car, but since sold it to a member on this forum that is doing something similar, but adding boost as well… This exact setup has been on my mind for quite a while... I find myself running though various aspects of it when I am trying to fall asleep, lol. I have been wondering about a setup like this; how much of a concern is the bearing area for the shaft... would this be a significant area for loss of boost pressure (I am thinking not) or is keeping the bearing for the shaft lubricated a potential problem, due to boost pressure possibly blowing lubricant out of the bearing? I am looking at an application running variable boost, maxing out eventually at around 30#'s... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony D Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Why 30#? Properly executed, the car will make more horsepower than you will ever be able to hook up well below 20#... Ask JeffP about how the right cam and porting wakes up a turbo engine! He thought he needed 30# to reach his goal, and in reality he has surpassed it to the rear wheels before 20# judging by the last dyno run... And that is on a stock single-Throttle Plate turbo manifold that kills 30 CFM on each runner. Wonder what power would be available with that additional flow by opening it up? How much is too much? Boost is only a reflection of restriction to flow. Big boost numbers making big horsepower isn't a sign of precise engine planning, just forced induction working really hard to make the power. Open up the air pumping efficiency, and the same power happens at MUCH lower boost levels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted March 29, 2007 Administrators Share Posted March 29, 2007 EXACTLY!!! Thank you Tony D. for your eloquent description of BOOST! PERFECT! I was just talking to Garret Maddox today on the phone, and in our discussion, this topic came up, but we only brushed on it lightly. Garrett is definitely on track with boost vs. power being produced. So many people view boost pressure on the same plane as power produced. That is a very incorrect view of boost. Boost pressure when viewed as an indicator of power, should only be viewed as a very general indication of power produced in a particular model of power plant, nothing more. In reality, boost pressure really only indicates the intake air flow restriction as Tony D. described above. For example, you can have two L-28 engines, both producing 20 PSI of boost Turbo charged, but both engines producing totally different HP numbers. Lets say one is producing 400 HP, the other is producing 500 HP. This is NOT an unrealistic scenario. The one producing 500 HP on only 20 psi is obviously making better use of the 20 PSI as it is breathing more CFM than the 400 HP version. In short, what Tony is saying, (if I'm not stating exactly what you said Tony, don't hesitate to correct my interpretation), is that you can have all the boost pressure in the world, as interpreted on your boost gauge connected to your intake manifold plenum. But if that boost pressure isn’t getting into the cylinders, you are just building pressure in your manifold, not power at the crank. If that is still unclear, then think of it this way. If you welded your intake valves shut, a turbo could produce ungodly BOOST pressure, but being as NONE of that air is getting in the cylinders, NO power is being produced, i.e. 50 lbs of boost, and ZERO horse power! SAVVY? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 If that is still unclear, then think of it this way. If you welded your intake valves shut, a turbo could produce ungodly BOOST pressure, but being as NONE of that air is getting in the cylinders, NO power is being produced, i.e. 50 lbs of boost, and ZERO horse power! SAVVY? That's one of the things that drives me nuts about people running stock camshafts with turbos and advertising it like it's something to be proud of. You wouldn't need all that boost if the valves opened up a little farther and longer. It's damn near free hp, considering a regrind is ~$65, but it seems like a lot of guys would rather spend a couple grand on a bigger turbo and a bigger intercooler instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tannji Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 I hear and comprehend... = ) Perhaps I should have stated explicitly that I want my setup CAPABLE of Handling up to 30#'s of boost... I dont anticipate actually running that, or at least not doing so other than in the rare track appearance. My more direct concern was with relatively high boost numbers, I am concerned about developing leaks at the shaft openings in a manifold as described above. Also, this is not going on an L28.. its going on a 2.4 liter motor for my 240Z, but a four-banger instead of the original 6 cylinder 2.4 engine. I am going with a complete custom head already proven on turbo'ed 2RZ's, as well as a cam ground specifically for a specific turbo, and appropriate pistons. (point of interest, the stock cam is good for about 900 hp on this motor... but I am not shooting for that, nor do I want to do what Paradise Racing and others did to get that kind of power from stock cams.) I am not really shooting for a specific performance number, nor boost number. I want to build within a certain spec, and then see what I can do with it with tuning and some custom intake work, hopefully done by myself. I know some of my limitations, and intend to find the rest during this project... but I am a little concerned about the intake above and leaking boost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONZTER Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 I just came across this post, this is what I have been working on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 I just came across this post, this is what I have been working on why bother with multiple injectors when you are making a customized intake setup anyhow? just use one hugeass injector per cylinder. K.I.S.S., right? or am I displaying my ignorance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 why bother with multiple injectors when you are making a customized intake setup anyhow? just use one hugeass injector per cylinder. K.I.S.S., right? or am I displaying my ignorance? it could depend on how far the injectors are spaced along each individual runner better idle/better atomization is the tradeoff of positioning injectors. having them switch or phase in and out at different RPM's can achieve a mixture of both benefits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Of course, with the DEVAS system, infinitely adjustable valve timing would negate the necessity for a throttle plate altogether. All throttling would be accomplished through valve events. Don't get me started! LOL what about the coates spherical rotary valve cam shafts/head =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-ya Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 That's one of the things that drives me nuts about people running stock camshafts with turbos and advertising it like it's something to be proud of. You wouldn't need all that boost if the valves opened up a little farther and longer. It's damn near free hp, considering a regrind is ~$65, but it seems like a lot of guys would rather spend a couple grand on a bigger turbo and a bigger intercooler instead. Jon, would you consider 12psi a lot of boost (5psi more than stock)? I've personally tuned bone stock L28ET long blocks that made over 325WHP, and over 300ft-lbs torque. Am I proud of the bone stock motor? No. Am I impressed with the potential of these engines in stock form? Yes. Of course lots of head work, and the correct cam will yield a lot more power at the same boost level. Head work is expensive, junkyard motors aren't. Let's focus this thread on the cool throttle body work being done. My next motor build up will most likely be NA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Careless Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 50 lbs of boost, and ZERO horse power! SAVVY? I once sold all my cars in gran turismo 2, and bought a dodge viper that suddenly had 0 horsepower. It was so not-fun, that i stopped playing. let this be a lesson to everyone who wants to weld their throttle valves shut! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoustonZ Posted March 29, 2007 Author Share Posted March 29, 2007 Looks great Monzter! Definitely harder to machine, but it sure does look amazing. Actually I plan on using two injection rails as well. One for fuel, the other for water/methenol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONZTER Posted March 29, 2007 Share Posted March 29, 2007 Since it will be a 1-off the machining doesnt scare me. As it is modeled in Pro-E and I use a shop that does fantastic surface machining. Easy to program, but lots of machine time. The flange will be 1 pc, and the runners 2 pcs welded together (top and Bottom). The bodies will also be one pc and welded to the runners. They were designed around TWM small parts like butterfies and linkage so I dont have to make that stuff. They will be 45mm and used on my Turbo Motor. 1 Huge injector is difficult for good idle and cruise. The staged injectors will operate depending on the RPM and load, small close injector for idle and cruise, and big far away injector for High RPM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoustonZ Posted March 29, 2007 Author Share Posted March 29, 2007 How do you plan on dealing with the airflow requirements? MAF, MAP? Rpm/TPS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MONZTER Posted March 30, 2007 Share Posted March 30, 2007 How do you plan on dealing with the airflow requirements? MAF, MAP? Rpm/TPS? I am currently running a Tec 3r it uses MAP, TPS, Coolant Temp, and air temp to calculate air flow, so no restriction from a air flow sensor. A cool feature of the Tec is that you can blend in TPS to your MAP reading to trick and engine with a low vacuum reading at idle, which is common with big cams and ITB's The Tec 3r runs great, my current L-24 with a welded up N-42 at 10.5:1 runs pump gas all day and did 210hp at the wheels at R & D Dyno Check out my pictures for a look at my current projects http://album.hybridz.org/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=19475 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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