JIM73240Z Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Stupid contractors – rant I know there are a lot of really stupid people in the world. I think it just so happens that the majority of them work in the construction industry. I have also seen some of the most intelligent individuals in the same field; they just are not around that often. Case in point. I am a structural engineer by day and design multi-million dollar homes for people that have to much bloody money, by night. I received a phone call last week to inspect a house that someone was working on. The homeowners live in a 30 year old block home. The wife (interior designer) wants more volume in the rooms. So she hires a contractor to vault the ceilings. The contractor goes ahead and cuts the trusses apart and leaves them dangling. From the outside, you can see the roof sagging. A lot. He has removed so much structural members that I would not walk into a room with the owner. Bearing walls removed with nothing to hold up what needs to be held up. I am sure that made here feel really good about her selection of contractors. He is now pleading with me to make what he did work. All it would be is a band aid over a compound fracture. Now the owner has to replace the entire roof, trusses, decking, tile, insulation, mechanical, electrical wiring because it all ran inside of the trusses. I have to refrain from saying “fire that guy and sue him for damagesâ€. It is not my position to do so and I hate this sue crazy society that we live in, but I would if it was my call. I know this happens in other parts of the country, but here in AZ, the development had expanded so fast that there are no good contractors anymore that the average person can afford. So now we have to deal with the hacks. All I can say, for anyone who will build something to their house, get a decent set of plans, hire a competent contractor and watch the work as it progresses. You can tell if it does not look right by using something called “common senseâ€. I know, I know. That is not taught in college and I guess it is not passed down from one generation to the next. sorry, been a long day. i am sure that the saga will continue tommorrow. jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Metallicar Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 That's a tough place to be in. If you call the building inspector, your client will hate you. In the mean time, you put your neck in the noose if you don't. "Got Permit?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 I agree with Metallicar... call the inspector. If your client objects just tell them you do not want them to hear later that they were killed by strucural collapse or that their home was destroyed. I would also gently mention that lawsuit to them. The home owners may be pissed no matter what you do. They could be pissed if you DON'T bring it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Sounds like the house has been made uninhabitable. At this point, in our lawsuit happy society, you have to notify the authorities and tell the homeowner the horrible truth. If the roof falls in on them and you haven't made the proper notifications, you'll be the one that gets sued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM73240Z Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 it sounds like the homeowner is going in that direction. i can only give them sugestions as to possible fixes. the final decision needs to be theirs as we are not a law firm and "cannot advise on legal matters". this has cost the homeowner $30K on top of what they have to spend to fix it. no permits were issued which i gave her an ear full on that topic. stupid owners. try to get around some thing s and it could end up costing a lot more. in this case, A LOT MORE. jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Arizona? Do you even need a roof? J/K. Step back and play by the rulebook at this point. Use your common sense. By setting an example, you can instill common sense into someone else. Don't lower yourself and badmouth the initial contractor. Be the standup, knowledgeable expert and give sound advice in your feild of expertise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 We at one point thought about adding a second level to part of our house. Placed an internet request on a home improvement site and got one quote at $75K and a second at $55k. Both companies had clean BBB pages, but couldn't find much else to check them out. Asked around and found a coworker who's husband did replacement windows for a living. Asked her who they would hire to do such a job. They gave us the name of a guy who didn't normally work in our county, but he said he would consider it for what amounted to $120K. At that point I gave up on the idea. How in the hell do you know who to trust? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 POP... "How in the hell do you know who to trust?" Trust NO ONE!!! Just take your best educated guess, hire inpsectors, and sue if they f-up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM73240Z Posted January 24, 2007 Author Share Posted January 24, 2007 Trust NO ONE!!! Just take your best educated guess, hire inpsectors, and sue if they f-up. unfortunatly that seem to be the way it is no days. i try really hard not to throw anyone under the bus, just say it should have been done like this and try to remedy the situation. i always put it in the perspective of "if it was my _______, what would i do." but looking at things in this instance i am the bearer of bad news. i have told her what needs to happen but i think she is finally getting it. pop, unless you live in a super small town, there has got to be contractors around. check some of the local developments and look for buildings that are being built, walk them and look at the job. common sence can tell you alot about hte quality. price is another thing altogether. some contractors use only their little group of subs for concrete, framing ect. that can drive up the price. remodels usually cost around $100-$150 per square foot. 1000 sq. ft. addition = 100k. you can do some of the work yourself (paint, drywall, flooring) but the sticks, bricks, and elect should be done by someone qualified. you can save some money there. also ask around, check personal refrences of work that the contractor has done. BBB is a good place to start, but if a client hesitates to recommend a builder, more research is needed. it may not be the builder but the homeowner was a complete PITA and pissed off the contractor. jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr_hunt Posted January 24, 2007 Share Posted January 24, 2007 Ol' SuperDan knows a good contractor! In fact, he's probably about to send him to a different state to work! At least that is after he finishes what he started at Dans house!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 References, references, references. And references. Hire an independant inspector or supervise the job yourself if you are knowledgeable enough. While I was laid-off a few years ago, I designed and built a 1000 square foot two story extension on my house including a livingroom, den, and master suite. I got permits, hired all the trades myself and supervised, supervised, supervised. I did all the interior work myself. No matter what, there will be road blocks and forks in the road. YOU, the owner, or a representative, needs to be there to make decisions and assure quality. Trust yourself, and trust references a little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240zV8 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 anyone can bang a hammer, and I hate to turn it to a male female thing, but I had to help my mom out recently when she got a bid from a contractor to do some windows and knock down some walls for her. She almost got talked into a 20k job that was a 5k job. But this sounds more like a contractor who went to fast without thinking.... bad deal. Alot of contractors usually think there way is the best way, and if u second guess them, they'll walk away even if the job you paid for isn't complete. And it prolly would have cost him alittle more to do it the right way, but his way in his mind was fast and cheap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 References, references, references. And references. Hire an independant inspector or supervise the job yourself if you are knowledgeable enough. While I was laid-off a few years ago, I designed and built a 1000 square foot two story extension on my house including a livingroom, den, and master suite. I got permits, hired all the trades myself and supervised, supervised, supervised. I did all the interior work myself. No matter what, there will be road blocks and forks in the road. YOU, the owner, or a representative, needs to be there to make decisions and assure quality. Trust yourself, and trust references a little. Well that is what I ended up doing. I adding a sun room to the back of the house myself. I would have done the electrical myself but the county won't give a permit unless you have a union card. But pulling off an entire roof and adding a second level using 26' gluelams is not exactly a DIY weekend type job. The few people who I had references for were too busy to be bothered and simply too expensive. Housing prices have tripled in this region in the last 7-8 years so contractors are being kept busy with all the home equity loans. Makes a lot of room for a bunch of would be contractors to start out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIM73240Z Posted January 25, 2007 Author Share Posted January 25, 2007 Housing prices have tripled in this region in the last 7-8 years so contractors are being kept busy with all the home equity loans. Makes a lot of room for a bunch of would be contractors to start out. that is the problem. the good contractors are to busy and their main guys that made them the good contractors wanted a piece of the pie and went off on their own. hired not so good workers so now there is now good contractors any more, just ok contractors. the ball keeps rolling down from there. in az, the job site is manned by non english speaking workers. not going to get into that one, but it make the job tough for everyone. good quality starts with a quality foundation. i have seen too many foundations that are not square and then the framers get to it. or basment walls that weave down the wall. some as much as 8". quality. jimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jt1 Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Contractors are a real PITA in any circumstances. If they had any brains, they wouldn't be contractors. jt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grumpyvette Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 CONTRACTORS not materials are your major problem,finding quality contractors with referances that check out takes time and effort and even then its not fool proof, and contractors bye nature want to get things done fast and at minimal cost to them. I had 7 bids on my garage , most ran in the $97,000-$145,000 range, then I started asking questions and demanding they use certain minimal specs on concrete, trusses,rebar,ETC.ETC,prices shot up to over $200,k I decided to sub- contract every last facet of the garages construction,SO I COULD CONTROL WHAT WENT INTO THE GARAGE, it was a HUGE P.I.T.A. but the garage I built FAR exceeds minimal inspection standards,and everythings done useing top quality components, trust me the differance between crap and just passing inspection and doing it correctly costs noticably more but its not a huge differance in materials example, at the time I built my garage 2400psi concrete cost $ 97 a yards 4000psi concrete cost $107 a yard 2x4 trusses cost $5700 2x8 trusses cost $6900 crap 20 year garuantee shingles cost $56 a sq lifetime/50 year garauntee shingles cost $78 a sq on 37 sqs thats about $1000, insignificant compared to knowing its done correctly in the cost of a $140,000 garage theres a lot more examples but the basic botom line is for about 20%-35% more you can have a FAR better and stronger structure, and LABOR is the huge money drain, I got estimates of $23,000 for minimal electical work, I FAR EXCEEDED that and did the work myself, used far better materials and spent $8700 on electric work that would easily have cost me at least $40k bye the electrical inspectors estimate and I far exceeded specs and past on the second inspection,(I would have past on the first try but the inspector didn,t like multiple ground rods the way ID installed them) he agreed they far exceeded specs but wanted ONE, then after inspection told me he had never seen anyone take so much time and effort to do everything to well past spec. he forgets IT MY SHOP!! and I HAVE TO USE IT!! BTW get the required specs, study them, ask the inspectors questions and get a good understanding of whats going on, example the first draft on my building plan had about 400 ft of #5 rebar,and a 3" thick slab, after talking to the architech and inspectors I had that changed to well in excess of 3000 ft of #7 rebar, I changed that to 6" minimal and 8" of 3500psi minimum under the whole lift side in the garage,concrete cost of the slabs rebar more than trippled but were only talking $3000-$3500 at the time in the rebar, and its MUCH STRONGER, the inspectors joked I was building a bank vault not a garage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Dealing with incompetence and thieves is a fact of life. If you're physically able, learn how to do the work and DIY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 81na ZX Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 I've got a good story from last week. I'm an architect and work mostly in health care design. We've got a job for one of our main clients replacing a CT scanner. The structural engineer original poster will know what the problem is when I say it, but I'll explain for everyone else. So the contractor goes out and installs some expansion bolts in teh concrete for the new scanner gantry. They drilled and recessed the holes 2.5". We spec'd 4". The scanner will rip what they drilled right out of the floor! So we have to make a change order, have them cut the bolts off they installed and drill and install new ones. Lots of time and money... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mike Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Geez... Why can't people just follow instructions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okimoto Posted January 25, 2007 Share Posted January 25, 2007 Regarding those cut trusses, I would probably report it to Code enforcement at the very least. You wouldn't want someone doing a band-aid on that roof without having it inspected. I haven't had to deal with OSHPD and hospitals much but I would think that people would hire a contractor who followed what was written on the plans for jobs like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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