Is It Worth Coating The Combustion Chamber?

[slownrusty]

Gang - What are your thoughts on this? My engine builder is leaning towards this way, as I will be running 20ish psi of boost and its turning out to be a pretty stout build.

 

The piston tops and skirts are all being coated.

 

Thanks - Yasin

[proxlamus©]

Did ya read Austins thread about "oh uh I think I damaged my internals?!"

 

He took pics of the coating literally burned off the pistons.

[naviathan]

Did ya read Austins thread about "oh uh I think I damaged my internals?!"

 

He took pics of the coating literally burned off the pistons.

I remember that thread. Bad Juju. Don't coat it. Looked like someone had taken a torch and singed the coating clean off.

[JMortensen]

TimZ has some threads on this in the past. My impression is that he is able to run a lot of boost on an N42 without pinging in part because of the coating.

[naviathan]

I don't see how a coating is going to make any difference in the ability to run high boost. I know it's suppose to help transfer heat from the surface of the components and keep things cooler, but it's all internal to the engine, there's no place really for the heat to go that it wouldn't normally be able to. I think Austin's thread shows what you'll get from the coatings the best. The only reason he foind it was because of the engine damage. Had it gone longer it probably would have completely burned the coating off and you'd have never known the difference when you pulled it apart 30,000 miles later.

[Garrett76Zt]

I say no Yasin, I dont have any kind of coating on my setup. I'm just a minimalist when it comes to this kind of stuff. My motor is happy at 26.5psi.

[JMortensen]

I don't see how a coating is going to make any difference in the ability to run high boost. I know it's suppose to help transfer heat from the surface of the components and keep things cooler, but it's all internal to the engine, there's no place really for the heat to go that it wouldn't normally be able to.

Actually what it does is create a barrier that heat can't penetrate as easily. So that extra heat goes into the exhaust, where it spools the turbo faster. But the bigger benefit to the head not absorbing heat is that you can run more boost without detonation.

 

I'm not a turbo guy and I have no experience with the coatings, but if you're looking for big boost and talking about coating the combustion chambers I think TimZ is the guy you want to hear from.

[slownrusty]

Thanks for all the responses guys! I do remember Austin's thread, and TonyD had the best laid out reply to his situation.

 

Seems like we are 50/50 on whether to pursue or not...?

 

I will drop TimZ a line.

 

Regards - Yasin

[Dtsnlvrs]

Datsun Dynamics used to get the Piston Skirts "McSwain" coated but that was the extent of it

[Garrett76Zt]

Actually what it does is create a barrier that heat can't penetrate as easily. So that extra heat goes into the exhaust, where it spools the turbo faster. But the bigger benefit to the head not absorbing heat is that you can run more boost without detonation.

 

I can understand what it does in theory, I've just not seen any need for it. I'm not sure exactly what boost level TimZ is running these days, but I've never heard of anyone running more than about what I'm running. Kinda has me curious actually. I wonder if the head would lift or anything crazy as you ran over 30 psi.

 

I just couldnt justify the money Yasin.

[Tony D]

I think Austin's thread shows what you'll get from the coatings the best.

 

I think that's an wholly innaccurate assessment of the situation, and of Austin's commentary. For Austin's experience, I can show you documented situations from my own experience that totally dispell his experience. The terrible situation here is people are using anecdotal non-scientific assessments of uncontrolled and haphazard situations and making decisions based upon them.

 

Bad juju? Bad Science. Detonation puts off ALL situational assessments. And Austin's engine clearly detonated, as shown in his photos. If a metal head gasket blows when you detonate, do you then condemn all metal headgaskets as 'The best you will get from them' based on that one experience of abnormal conditions?

 

Put some effort into research, and the plusses are there. For 20psi, do you need it? Who knows...what kind of HP is that 20 psi going to make?

 

I can tell you one thing: Swaintech will be one vendor I contact for coatings on my Bonneville Engine Build. There will be others as well. They work.

 

But to say one anecdotal story out of a sea of controlled studies and racing series where coatings are used...making a decision or drawing a conclusion from that is the Bad JuJu---Bad Science indeed!~

[naviathan]

I think that's an wholly innaccurate assessment of the situation, and of Austin's commentary. For Austin's experience, I can show you documented situations from my own experience that totally dispell his experience. The terrible situation here is people are using anecdotal non-scientific assessments of uncontrolled and haphazard situations and making decisions based upon them.

 

Bad juju? Bad Science. Detonation puts off ALL situational assessments. And Austin's engine clearly detonated, as shown in his photos. If a metal head gasket blows when you detonate, do you then condemn all metal headgaskets as 'The best you will get from them' based on that one experience of abnormal conditions?

 

Put some effort into research, and the plusses are there. For 20psi, do you need it? Who knows...what kind of HP is that 20 psi going to make?

 

I can tell you one thing: Swaintech will be one vendor I contact for coatings on my Bonneville Engine Build. There will be others as well. They work.

 

But to say one anecdotal story out of a sea of controlled studies and racing series where coatings are used...making a decision or drawing a conclusion from that is the Bad JuJu---Bad Science indeed!~

I wasn't inffering that the coating is what caused Austin's problem. As a matter a fact I believe I said that he probably would have never noticed the coating burn off had he not had the internal damage from whatever got in the combustion chambers. The damage was obviously caused by something else, but it did bring to light that the ceramic coating he used didn't hold up to the cylinder heat.

[jt1]

The last time I was at Calico, there was a guy from DEI there, picking up a pallet full of pistons.

 

John

[Mack]

Im interested to see the outcome of this, as I too have considered getting my pistons, chambers and exhaust runners coated.

 

On top of the pistons, I think the coatings offer a bit more of a barrier against REAL damage, just like forged pistons will take a bit more of a beating than their cast counterparts. There comes a point where the coating will fail, and there comes a point where forged pistons will also fail. The coatings just offer a little more forgiveness before the engine parts reach that point.

 

as far as coating the chamber, I would say that the coatings are a good thing in the fact that it keeps heat in the mixture/burning gasses as opposed to being absorbed by various parts of the engine and then subsequently being shed by the radiator as waste.

[Tony D]

"but it did bring to light that the ceramic coating he used didn't hold up to the cylinder heat."

 

No, that is not what it showed at all! And that is my point entirely.

 

Poor Conclusion drawn from poor anecdotal evidence and miserably researched.

 

Like I said, an HKS Metal Head Gasket Blows Out under Detonation, and Conclusion: They're junk, they don't hold up.

 

Same type of statement being made about coatings from Austins post.

 

Bad Decisions made from Bad, Incomplete, Anecdotal "Research".

[naviathan]

Tony, I'm not one to argue with you, but pull me a picture of a ceramic coated piston where the coating has survived through more than just a couple passes down the drag strip. That would have to beone hell of a thick coating.

[Tony D]

What I suggest people do is search out the research done by piston manufacturers and the OEM's regarding TBC Coatings.

Of particular interest, if you can find the stuff, is extensive experimentation and documentation of the results done by Keith Black Racing Piston's Chief Engineer John Erb. He has published several papers on the subject, some of them pamphlets for the KB Piston Customers, some through other sources. You may find him quoted on this subject, as well. This is regarding combustion chamber coatings, but he goes into pistons and piston crowns as well.

 

I spend time at this shop, that is where I got some contact with Erb and his propaganda on their behalf---

 

http://www.techlinecoatings.com

 

Their Tech Articles Section is worth reading.

 

These coatings are what we use in our Screw Compressor Overhaul Program, though the engineer in charge of that program formerly used them in his Top Fuel Blower Rebuild Business on the East Coast, as well as being a distributor for Swaintech (they are in NY).

[JIM73240Z]

thanks for the link tony. curently i am getting the drivetrain coated, pistons, head, valves, intake runners, ect. have used it in the past on score baja bugs, sandrails, and midget sprint cars with no adverse affects. do the research and i think it is pretty promising. do you need it? no i dont think so. but if you are going nuts, why not?

 

jimbo