Corzette Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I dont know if aNYONE IS INTERESTED BUT HERE ARE (damn caps lock) several links talking about the LSX carb swap. I am seriously thinking of the LSX carbed with edlebrock intake and MSD timing module for some tuning ability. That would make tuning for me sooo much easier and instant. Im not the smartest guru when it comes to computers for EFI etc, and then theres those wiring issues that scare me to death. Anyways maybe someone will find these links interesting and find it appropriate for thier liking as I have. Im thinking 472 cubes of LSX small block carbed and go from there....any comments? Here's some reading for you: http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105407 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112195 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148639 < http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158658 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=168311 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173568 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=198601 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267311 < http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305750 < http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311005 < http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314549 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320023 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327044 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=334178 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354540 http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=379735 < http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=381677 < http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392724 < http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=414468 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop N Wood Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 I like the way you think Life has been kicking my ass this year, but eventually I hope to get this carb'd LS2 crate motor on the road. A few other links to add to yours http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/0508ch_chevrolet_ls1_carburetor_power_increase/ http://www.superchevy.com/technical/engines_drivetrain/induction_poweradders/0409sc_gmpp/ A recent issue of I think Car Craft did a piece on pulling JY truck LS motors as low buck swap candidates. They went with the carb set up, mostly to save time, but also because the truck intakes are too tall for most vehicles. So the price of the intake and carb was not unlike sourcing a F body EFI unit. What was amazing is they took a truck motor, added the carb and intake, and with just a cam swap were pulling down over 500 HP. One word of warning, the MSD ignitions for an LS1/6 motor are NOT the same as the LS2 motor. The reluctor wheels and location of things like cam position sensors are completely different between the two motors. I had the LS1 controller for 5 months before they released the LS2 unit. Little did I know at the time I bought the motor no one made a compatible ignition unit. Also I am pretty sure the intake will be too tall for a standar JCI LS mount. I got my motor super low, and should have adequate clearance with the stock hood and a drop base air cleaner. Probably not an issue for you either way. One other thing to point out. I bought a brand new LS2 crate motor. This is a 2005 Corvette motor with the carb intake. GMPP parts rates the FI crate motor as just over 400 HP and the carb motor at 441 HP. Torque is higher across the band for the carb'd motor. maybe there is something to be said for the open plenum intake manifold over the FI runners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
240hoke Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 Yea, Ive been reading up on the LQ9's. If you couple them with the L92 cylinder heads staight from GM and a mild cam they put out 550HP!!! using the Lq4 is perhaps an even better option.. prolly would only put down around 500hp but you have lower compression and would respond better to boost. http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/ccrp_0705_chevrolet_ls2_l92_cylinder_heads/index.html This is a motor combination I am considering... but i would go EFI. They now make an LSX style EFI manifold for the L92 heads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 why oh why would people go carbs?! im still confused by this. If carbs were the way to go.. why is formula one and WRC and all major car manufacturers using EFI?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparks280zt Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 why oh why would people go carbs?! im still confused by this. If carbs were the way to go.. why is formula one and WRC and all major car manufacturers using EFI?! Cant teach an old dog new tricks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted June 30, 2007 Administrators Share Posted June 30, 2007 I am first and fore most an EFI guy. But as an engine builder/machinist, I have learned that Carbs due have their place, even on a modern high tech power plant. Carbs are a simple to install means of introducing fuel to the air stream, and the atomization characteristics of carburetors is still first rate. Back in the late ‘90’s only Mechanical injection, (Kinsler, Hillborn etc) could match the fuel atomizing characteristics of carburetors. Still today, I think you’d be hard pressed to find an Electronic Fuel injector with equal or better fuel atomization characteristics. The main advantage that EFI has over carbs is control over how much fuel and when. I.e. pinpoint delivery of fuel at a given RPM and load without affecting the rest of the fuel map. When you change a jet in a carb, you are in essence affecting the entire fuel map so to speak. Also, EFI allows the engine to operate under severe G loading without affecting the AFR. F-1 cars pull 5g lateral acceleration in a high speed corner. Because carbs are a mechanical device, they just won't reliably deliver fuel in that environment. (Of course there are Pressure carbs, such as used in aviation on aerobatic air planes… ) Again, Carbs offer incredible fuel atomization, ease of installation, the ability to get the engine up and running in a timely manner, over all induction costs are much less, and overall WOT performance will be comparable to EFI, (look at how much power NASCAR engine builders get from Carbs with highly restrictive plates?!?!). Until EFI can match those criteria, I can honesty see where Carbs still have a place, even on today’s modern high tech power plants, even though my first choice is EFI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 why oh why would people go carbs?! im still confused by this. If carbs were the way to go.. why is formula one and WRC and all major car manufacturers using EFI?! I'm considering a carbed LS swap for two reasons. One, because it will make more peak power than EFI (see the links grumpy posted) and two, because when it comes to electronics I can read at about the 2nd grade level... I may change my mind, but the carb manifolds are proving to make more power than the EFI manifolds, and I think as people start pushing the redlines higher the carb manifolds will show increasing gains over the EFI manifolds. At least that is what I'm getting out of the articles I've read. People are also making more power with a carb manifold and TBI than they are with the stock port injection manifold, according to the articles. Forced induction lends itself to fuel injection, so I think that is why the WRC cars have FI. I would note that F1 cars spray the fuel into the airhorns in a continuous stream, and not into the ports in pulses. Almost like a carb but more accurate quantities of fuel, and not at all like a port injection setup. FI comes on your new car for two reasons: mileage and emissions. On my racecar those are not relevant. EDIT--OK three reasons. EFI can adapt to different altitudes better and so they have better driveability. Again, not relevant. If I go to a track at a higher elevation, I'll just bring some different jets with me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted June 30, 2007 Administrators Share Posted June 30, 2007 ......I may change my mind, but the carb manifolds are proving to make more power than the EFI manifolds, and I think as people start pushing the redlines higher the carb manifolds will show increasing gains over the EFI manifolds. At least that is what I'm getting out of the articles I've read. People are also making more power with a carb manifold and TBI than they are with the stock port injection manifold, according to the articles. Forced induction lends itself to fuel injection, so I think that is why the WRC cars have FI. I would note that F1 cars spray the fuel into the airhorns in a continuous stream, and not into the ports in pulses. Almost like a carb but more accurate quantities of fuel, and not at all like a port injection setup. FI comes on your new car for two reasons: mileage and emissions. On my racecar those are not relevant. ......... As Jon pointed out. The fuel atomization of Carbs is phenomenal. EFI tuners are also starting to find more power moving the injectors further away from the combustion chamber giving the fuel more chance to atomize with the air, ala the Throttle body EFI and F-1’s stand off injectors in Jon’s references. I know that Carbs seem so barbaric, and as I stated in my pervious post, when it comes to producing outright big power, carbs really get the job done and quite well at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted June 30, 2007 Share Posted June 30, 2007 wow. thanks guys! Im still a fan of EFI.. but now I know the argument!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corzette Posted June 30, 2007 Author Share Posted June 30, 2007 Wow! thanks guys....Im definately sold now. My biggest reason was ease of install, saving money to have others do stuff and keeping it simple...we all remember that saying right (KISS). I wanna install, hook up the battery and go so this will allow me to do almost that without stressing too much. As far as power, I dont think a carbed LSX 472 will have any problem in that category... ....still planning and collecting...oh and case anyone didnt know...I just got my drive shaft flanges for the Q45 and R230...cheap now from Power train industries... Infinity is 3102-69: $64.08 R230 is 3102-42: $78.90 Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 carbs-some of the newer carbs with removable air bleeds and other parts would let you tune all the rpm ranges.if you installed some kind of wide band o2 to log it then you would know what direction to go with jet adjustments.i can probably change jets faster than hooking up the laptop and fiddling my ms-i am a hammer jockey with software but have been working hard the last few days.i have been lusting for v8 torque-my l28et doesnt have enough bottem end torque.the air flow capability with the carb mainfold is probably more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRTY260Z Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 because when it comes to electronics I can read at about the 2nd grade level... :lmao:Same here.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete84 Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 ....still planning and collecting...oh and case anyone didnt know...I just got my drive shaft flanges for the Q45 and R230...cheap now from Drive train industries... Infinity is 3102-69: $64.08 R230 is 3102-42: $78.90 Terry You have a link for those ?? I tried to navigate their site, but it wasn't working for me at the time . . . (?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corzette Posted July 1, 2007 Author Share Posted July 1, 2007 You have a link for those ?? I tried to navigate their site, but it wasn't working for me at the time . . . (?) Their number is: Please call 1-800-798-4585 and ask for Eric and he will personally handle your needs. Don't know why I said drive train industries....Site is: http://powertrainindustries.com/ Terry... P.S. Not a bad idea to get both in case it comes in handy in the future... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators BRAAP Posted July 1, 2007 Administrators Share Posted July 1, 2007 ...... oh and case anyone didnt know...I just got my drive shaft flanges for the Q45 and R230...cheap now from Power train industries... Infinity is 3102-69: $64.08 R230 is 3102-42: $78.90 Terry Driveshaft flanges for the R-230 eh?... Do you mean a driveshaft flange like the JTR flange for the old long nose R-200 that accepts the Chevy U-joint but now available for the R-230? So would that flange also work on the short nose R-200 V-LSD? if not, is a driveshaft flange available for the short nose N/A Z-32 and Q-45 R-200 V-LSD? (Sorry for hijacking guys, you can PM me if you prefer).. Thanks, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheelman Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 One other advantage of EFI over carbs I don't think was mentioned is the mid range drivability. Throttle response in an EFI car is almost always better than a carbed engine making the same level of WOT power. I know for most of us in this thread the cold morning start is not much of a concern but an EFI engine will generally crank right up where a carb motor will be more hesitant. I think part of the reason the carb motors are making more power is the wealth the experience in the manifold designs vs the EFI manifolds. Wheelman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrcheeze36 Posted July 1, 2007 Share Posted July 1, 2007 Driveshaft flanges for the R-230 eh?... Do you mean a driveshaft flange like the JTR flange for the old long nose R-200 that accepts the Chevy U-joint but now available for the R-230? So would that flange also work on the short nose R-200 V-LSD? if not, is a driveshaft flange available for the short nose N/A Z-32 and Q-45 R-200 V-LSD? (Sorry for hijacking guys, you can PM me if you prefer).. Thanks, Paul Paul, 3102-69 is for the 4-bolt short nose R200V (Q45 diff, NA Z32 diff), while 3102-42 is for the 6-bolt short nose R230V. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritech-z Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 Couldn't you just use that manifold with some kind of 4-barrell TBI setup, if you were really concerned about having electronic control over what your fuel is doing? does anybody know if that 50hp comes from the carb, or from the manifold for sure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted July 2, 2007 Share Posted July 2, 2007 One of the posts grumpy linked to did specifically use the TBI with the carb manifold and also found more power. I don't know that there has been a back to back comparison with the TBI vs the carb, but yes to answer your question that can be done and it does seem to make more power than the TPI, but one could still argue whether it is the manifold or the atomization, because I think both the TBI and the carb share those attributes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueovalz Posted July 3, 2007 Share Posted July 3, 2007 I read an article (old) comparing the Holley Commander 950 (EFI) with a 750 holley carb, on the same motor. Out of the box, the 750 out performed the EFI, but only JUST barely. In the test they replace the injectors with larger ones to squeak out an advantage, but failed to give the carb an equal chance with an increase the jet size, or carb size for a comparison. http://www.popularhotrodding.com/enginemasters/articles/hardcore/0305em_holley/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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