rickl750 Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Hi Guys, I'm considering the Motor sports Twice Pipes" Exhaust System for my 79 280z 2+2. http://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/CTGY/PEC09 I need to replace my stock exhaust (It's bad) My engine is still stock and not looking to do anything with it until the end of next year. For now I would like to get something that sounds a little better then the stock exhaust but not to loud. Does anyone have any experience with this exhaust. Any impute, suggestion or recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cygnusx1 Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Buzz has it on his 280Z. It's loud and sweet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 Mario was running twice pipes... I am running a 2.5" from a header to a turbo muffler with the packing mostly blown out. My Videos Still fighting some ignition/timing problems though... It used to be a lot quieter before I started getting the backfiring problems. Maybe add a bullet muffler after the collector would aid in quieting it down along with a flowmaster or similar muffler. (my electric fan makes more noise than my valvetrain! way to go on a valve adjustment!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madkaw Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 I had twice pipes on my first Z 20 years ago and loved it. I am older and much more mature now sooo- i opted to make my own twice pipes that will probably be even louder:icon6: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 MSA's twice pipes are very loud and hang low. A friend of mine had them and the lower of the two pipes was about 1/2 way pinched off from hitting speed bumps. Madkaw's is really really nice, but it's all custom... By the way I don't think they make it for 280ZX's, although your post says 79 280Z, so... ???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katman Posted July 18, 2007 Share Posted July 18, 2007 We ran them on our ITS race car (basically stock engines) back before we knew anything. Going to a single exhaust gained about 10hp. YMMV. With dual megaphones coming out the back at 108 db they sure sounded sweet, but alas, winning races was more important than how cool we sounded... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 I am going to point a couple of things out here... "twice pipes" is a term that typically indicates half of the cylinders using one exhaust pipe, and half using the other. This type of setup is not optimal for engine performance, as it eliminates (or severely hinders) the scavenging effect that one exhaust pulse has in pulling the next pulse out of the cylinder. If I am not mistaken, Katman, the system you used in your ITS car was a legitimate "twice pipes" setup just as described. If I am not mistaken, Mario's twice pipes setup is ALSO such a design. Madkaw, on the other hand, has a different "twice pipes" setup; as you can see in his first image there is an "x-pipe" where the entire system merges into one collector pipe, thus in effect "marrying" the two sets of three cylinders, and obtaining the desirded scavenging effect. I own an uninstalled MSA twice pipes system. They come as a complete exhaust set, ready to be mounted to a header. The "eshaust system" you buy begins with one common pipe, that gets immediately split into two pipes running back under your car. In other words, the MSA "twice pipes" setup is NOT a twice pipes setup in the strictest sense (at least, how I understand the definition) AND, it DOES have the scavenging effect that katman's setup (unless I am mistaken in my memory) was lacking. To the best of my knowledge, this lack of scavenging is the only performance issue inherent in a "twice pipes" setup, and the MSA system *should* bypass that issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randy 77zt Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 some of the origianl exhaust manifolds had 2 pipes coming out.the original systems bolted to the stock oem manifolds.back in the day the quality on headers wasnt so good and you were better off with not messing with the exhaust manifold.they kind of sounded like old jaguar engines .if you have a 76-78 z you can hang a very big muffler where the cat convertor was.i run a 3" exhaust and have my muffler in the middle of the car.you really only need 2 mandrel bends and some pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickl750 Posted July 23, 2007 Author Share Posted July 23, 2007 Hi Guys, Thank you for the info. BTW, this is a 78 280Z not 79 typo. You guys made some valid point and I'm going to look at other options before I commit to anything. Thanks again, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 from what I have heard, the MSA twice pipes seems to accent the semi-high pitched, "brap" noise that the engine makes, which is why I chose it. The single pipe, "turbo" muffler exhaust system that MSA sells has a throatier quality to it thats sounds richer but less refined IMHO, than a Z ought to sound.. but its a matter of what you want not my humble opinion. Just to sum up my longish post above, the MSA twice pipes should have no performance detriment whatsoever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 from what I have heard, the MSA twice pipes seems to accent the semi-high pitched, "brap" noise that the engine makes, which is why I chose it. The single pipe, "turbo" muffler exhaust system that MSA sells has a throatier quality to it thats sounds richer but less refined IMHO, than a Z ought to sound.. but its a matter of what you want not my humble opinion. Just to sum up my longish post above, the MSA twice pipes should have no performance detriment whatsoever. I'd like to see a back to back comparison before I agree with your statement. I think the scavenging effect you referred to is somewhat overrated. I think most of the CP Z cars back in the day used true dual exhaust. Hard to believe that racers would carry around the extra weight of two complete sets of pipes if there was no benefit to it at all. You don't see many Porsche racers running single outlet exhaust either. You also need to factor in header design as it is critical to making power. Most cheap header systems are pretty crappy. Katman has referred to this before on many occasions, and I think his general conclusion was that the Nissan Comp header was the cheapest one worth buying from a performance upgrade standpoint. I'm still fairly convinced that my MSA 6-1 header did provide an increase in power, but I have no dyno sheet to back that up, and there is the possibility that my butt dyno misinterpreted louder exhaust for more power. Tube diameters and muffler restriction are less critical, but also can have a significant effect. I seem to remember the diameter being pretty small on the twice pipes setup. You can figure out the area of a circle using pi x r^2, and if you think your car should be set up with 2.5" single exhaust, that means that you have an area of 4.9 sq in. For duals to have the same area they would need to be roughly 1.75" each. I think a lot of people figure that one 5" pipe flows the same as 2 2.5" pipes, but it is not that way. So that means more weight that you're carrying around, because you have to carry two pipes that are fairly large compared to the single pipe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 I'd like to see a back to back comparison before I agree with your statement. I think the scavenging effect you referred to is somewhat overrated. I think most of the CP Z cars back in the day used true dual exhaust. Hard to believe that racers would carry around the extra weight of two complete sets of pipes if there was no benefit to it at all. You don't see many Porsche racers running single outlet exhaust either. You also need to factor in header design as it is critical to making power. Most cheap header systems are pretty crappy. Katman has referred to this before on many occasions, and I think his general conclusion was that the Nissan Comp header was the cheapest one worth buying from a performance upgrade standpoint. I'm still fairly convinced that my MSA 6-1 header did provide an increase in power, but I have no dyno sheet to back that up, and there is the possibility that my butt dyno misinterpreted louder exhaust for more power. Tube diameters and muffler restriction are less critical, but also can have a significant effect. I seem to remember the diameter being pretty small on the twice pipes setup. You can figure out the area of a circle using pi x r^2, and if you think your car should be set up with 2.5" single exhaust, that means that you have an area of 4.9 sq in. For duals to have the same area they would need to be roughly 1.75" each. I think a lot of people figure that one 5" pipe flows the same as 2 2.5" pipes, but it is not that way. So that means more weight that you're carrying around, because you have to carry two pipes that are fairly large compared to the single pipe. I cannot disagree with your post at all, if anything I wrote either misled or failed to mention your statements the shortcoming was unintentional. As you said, the header is key. Unless the exhaust pulses are extracted from the cylinder head properly, the effect of everything downstream is muted. My point was simply that the loss of scavenge effect typically associated with a "true" twice pipe system is not present on the MSA piece. I have no evidence to back up the need for scavenging; I was relying on Katman's experience using the "true dual exhaust" as "proof" on that subject and nothing more. It would be nice to see a side-by-side dyno comparison.. but how many things can we say that about? My understanding was that the scavenging effect is one of the facets that an engine builder uses to determine the camshaft selection, and that it can be used to allow less overlap. With an unscavenging exhaust system, it is more important to waste a little intake charge to help flush all the exhaust out of the cylinder. However, I am being something of an armchair gearhead in making these statements. (Internet parrot may also be applicable, but it is far from mindless ) As for pipe diameter, if memory serves it is twin 1.75" pipes, possibly slightly larger. The Y-pipe in the photo above is ~2.75-3". The header I have to install is the MSA 3 into 2 into one header, so basically my exhaust will be cheap header, into header y pipe, into twice pipes y pipe (with a total single pipe length of about a foot) then back into the twin ~1.75" pipes, through twin cherry bombs, and out into twin chrome tips. The clearance issue of the MSA system was one that I was not aware of, since I haven't installed my system yet. It was a christmas gift received just after my car went out of commission, so I have only looked at it and not actually run it yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fhptom Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 I just reread Carl Becks findings on HP gains comparing different headers on same car. He tested Stock vs Nissan Comp vs Rebello and there was less than 5 hp gain from the 2 headers compared to stock. In a race car setup there will be other gains to justify cost of headers and I use MSA 6-1 on my 260. I gained 40 HP switching to this header along with putting on a N42 head with much more comp.(that is what gave me my big increase) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimzdat Posted July 24, 2007 Share Posted July 24, 2007 Well, I can't get into all the technical aspects since it's way over my head--see above posts for all that. I had the MSA system on my 74 and then also on my 76 (both 2+2 models)--I got pulled over more than once out in Commiefornia due to the obnoxious noise level--one cop compared it to a Cessna flying at 10 ft off the ground I ended up having it replaced with a single 2.5" pipe all the way to the back, then put a Supertrapp on it--made a world of difference, and got rid of the droning. Also made driving it a little nicer--no more defness after an hour This was on a non-stock engine; L28 stock bottom end, E31 head w/280Z valves, 460 lift/288 dur cam, triple webers, 6->1 header Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted July 25, 2007 Share Posted July 25, 2007 Well, I can't get into all the technical aspects since it's way over my head--see above posts for all that.I had the MSA system on my 74 and then also on my 76 (both 2+2 models)--I got pulled over more than once out in Commiefornia due to the obnoxious noise level--one cop compared it to a Cessna flying at 10 ft off the ground I ended up having it replaced with a single 2.5" pipe all the way to the back, then put a Supertrapp on it--made a world of difference, and got rid of the droning. Also made driving it a little nicer--no more defness after an hour This was on a non-stock engine; L28 stock bottom end, E31 head w/280Z valves, 460 lift/288 dur cam, triple webers, 6->1 header I must reiterate at this point that yes, I do rather enjoy an emphatic exhaust note. Take my above comments with that grain of salt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 ran em.. loved em.. sold em to mario.. love my 3" single better.. turbos rock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeron Posted July 30, 2007 Share Posted July 30, 2007 ran em.. loved em.. sold em to mario.. love my 3" single better.. turbos rock Okay, I finally dug up Mario's thread about his exhaust, complete with videos to hear how it sounds. http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=113984&highlight=pipes Summary: mario has a full twin pipe system, meaning that as I said above, his type is "lacking scavenge effect" and, while it is the MSA system he has apparently deleted the two Y-pipes that first joined the header into one pipe and then split the collector into two pipes again. The MSA system, as purchased, is designed to hook up to a single pipe. He didnt list the diameter of the collector (obviously) but he quoted the size of the two pipes at just under 1.75" each. Prox, when you ran this system was it with fully divorced pipes, or did you have a collector? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spacecase70 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I just think they sound bitchen! and look way too Cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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