First F20C swap?

[Gollum]

The car probably wont be scca spec for a while if at all. The primary build will be for mountain runs with my local crew.

 

As for the weight... Since this is a 240 the starting platform is in the 2300 range completely stock and with the Iorn inline six. Just swappin out the iorn six for an aluminum four should drop weight down between 2150 and 2200 lb range with nothing else done. So after mods I dont see any problem achieving 2000 lbs or even hitting sub 2000 lbs for that matter.

 

The powerband... I have driven and rode passenger in many S2000's and their powerbands have all made good power and had a very usable powerband. I could see your complaint if you were trying to race from an idle because you need to rev this engine to get to the real power, but the reality is that we race in our engines powerband no matter which engine it is or what type of racing it is. With that said, if a car falls out of powerband in a race its usualy driver error or drivetrain not being setup correctly for the type of race.

 

I do understand where you are comming from with all of this. But the F20C is very drivable at low rpms which will be great for around town and it screams from the crack of V-TEC all the way to the 9000 rpm redline. And on the top it all off lets not forget about efective gearing. I will be running 4.44's in the rear which will net me much better torque to the ground.

 

I'm sorry if I ever seemed to say that the powerband on the F20C or even F22C was "unusable" or "unstreetable". That's not the case, and that's not what I really care about. I could even imagine giving up a ton of streetability for the sake of the raceworthy powerband.

 

My POINT, was that the F20C is a low torque motor. Sure you can gain more torque with gearing, but guess what? You just made your powerband smaller. At the end of the day it's about how broad your torque peak is, that's what makes an engine able to pull strong through a corner's exit. A racing team will always confirm that more torque is always better. Why do you think rally cars are almost ALWAYS turbo or supercharged? Because they get way more torque with the air restrictions, and that torque is very meaningful in their line of racing.

 

I'm sure the car will be fun, no doubt. And I've even talked about this swap on this board, because I think it IS a neat idea.

 

But if you're 100% nonbiased and not a fanboy of any company, then if your goals are simply low weight with decent HP then there are other motor options. That's all.

[EMWHYR0HEN]

I'm sorry if I ever seemed to say that the powerband on the F20C or even F22C was "unusable" or "unstreetable". That's not the case, and that's not what I really care about. I could even imagine giving up a ton of streetability for the sake of the raceworthy powerband.

 

My POINT, was that the F20C is a low torque motor. Sure you can gain more torque with gearing, but guess what? You just made your powerband smaller. At the end of the day it's about how broad your torque peak is, that's what makes an engine able to pull strong through a corner's exit. A racing team will always confirm that more torque is always better. Why do you think rally cars are almost ALWAYS turbo or supercharged? Because they get way more torque with the air restrictions, and that torque is very meaningful in their line of racing.

 

I'm sure the car will be fun, no doubt. And I've even talked about this swap on this board, because I think it IS a neat idea.

 

But if you're 100% nonbiased and not a fanboy of any company, then if your goals are simply low weight with decent HP then there are other motor options. That's all.

 

Well said!

[rudypoochris]

Imho, if you want to burn money your better off buying an Aluminum block and head Ford 302-331-347. That will weigh in the mid to high 300lb range depending on accesories and such. I *believe* the S2000 engine was something like 347lbs complete sans transmission.

 

If you want to be more frugal maybe concider the buick aluminum block engine, although I must admit I know nothing of the aftermarket and potential. It just seems very strange to spend so much for a savings of 50 or so pounds over much cheaper solutions.

 

As far as an S2000 being quick for the weight, I'm not so sure on that one. If you compare similar power to weight ratio cars, the S2000 is almost always the slower one. I wrote a little hypothesizing as to why that was. I think it is mainly a huge lack of torque on the low end. When comparing a 3000-5000 pull on a stock 5.0L HO to a 5300-8800 pull on an S2000 (this was a simple 1.76x scale up to compare what might be a typical 2nd gear acceleration scenario), the S2k carrys almost 14% less power under the curve. Which in turn would relate to something around 14% less acceleration despite having equal peak power outputs between the two engines. Just something to think about.

[Gollum]

Something I just remembered:

 

This might hold absolutely NO weight with people's opinions, but it's worth noting, that on an episode of Best Motoring they compared a S2000 and a 350Z on several levels, main one being a road corse. In the end the 350Z won dispite being heavier. We know the S2000 is good in the handling arena, so the only explaination would be driver or engine.

 

The nissan VG series could be a viable option for you. Probly wouldn't cost much more if at all than a F20C, makes quite a bit more power stock, and has much more proven NA expandability (though it's still not amazing). One of those with just a little bit of work should be able to realistically make 300+ hp, with a nice soft torque curve. Could the same be said for the F20C? I doubt it's much heavier than the F20C as well, plus it's a shorter motor.

 

Austin (240 Hoke) here is currently doing the swap. Not sure if anyone else has done it.

[Z2000]

why spend 3x more?

 

because imo v-tec motors have a serious fun factor associated with them,

its just a blast when you zing that thing 8-9k and it just dont quit!

it may sound a little (or alot!!) childish, but after taking a friends type r to buttonwillow and hittin it wot i had a grin that you couldnt pull off with the spaceshuttle and a towhook!

 

although i havent found the right z 4 me, i have taken a lead foot to a friends 240 with a 280 drivetrain. it was pretty fun, but not the same feeling. i took my wifes 02 se-r to streets of willow and wasnt that fun.

 

after all that babble the things that dont matter are hp, tq, and $$. the only thing that matters is "fun to drive".

 

I agree! my adiction for V-TEC started about 7 years ago when I got my first ride in a civic hb with a DOHC V-TEC engine in it. It drove very well in the low rpm range even though its a low torque engine because of its high gear ratio and mellow non v-tec cam profile, but as soon as we hit the highway, the v-tec cracked and roared loud as we blistered through the gears. From that day on well tuned v-tec engine have given me chills.

 

Now I know you guys are wondering why im not on a honda forum and the answer is because I dislike FR vehicles. Next question is why dont I have an S2000 then? thats because I live in california and there's no way I would get away with a modded S2000 here. So after doing my homework I decided that the ultimate package "for my needs" would be a smog exempt 240z with some light weight goodies and of course the F20C! And like Iv said, Im not going for a 9 second car here. I just want something that drives like a normal car around town with good miles per gallon and RIPS when i crack it into v-tec and I can do all my crazy NA mods to and not have to worry about getting in trouble for my engine setup or worry about smog.

 

You guys are really going to hate me when you here this one... I have a RB26DETT sitting in my garage next to my Z right now but Im getting rid of it for my F20C. Plus its sooooo hard to come across RB parts and trannys these days which would lead to long lengths of down time in the future. This car needs to be reliable and if something brakes I need to be able to get parts fast to fix it. so sorry RB lovers I have to back out of my RB plan this time.

 

Im sure many more of you would agree with this setup if you have been in a fast car with a DOHC V-TEC engine.

[Clifton]

I don't think there won't be this much criticism if it were a lesser powered Nissan 4 cyl going in it. Maybe it just that it's a Honda

 

I've seen CA18, RB20, a ton of SR's and other IMO, worthless swaps on here and everyone loves them. This makes as much HP n/a as any of the previous Nissan motors w/turbo.

 

It's a 2.0, it won't make that much torque, just as any 2.0l won't.

[Z2000]

Something I just remembered:

 

This might hold absolutely NO weight with people's opinions, but it's worth noting, that on an episode of Best Motoring they compared a S2000 and a 350Z on several levels, main one being a road corse. In the end the 350Z won dispite being heavier. We know the S2000 is good in the handling arena, so the only explaination would be driver or engine.

 

The nissan VG series could be a viable option for you. Probly wouldn't cost much more if at all than a F20C, makes quite a bit more power stock, and has much more proven NA expandability (though it's still not amazing). One of those with just a little bit of work should be able to realistically make 300+ hp, with a nice soft torque curve. Could the same be said for the F20C? I doubt it's much heavier than the F20C as well, plus it's a shorter motor.

 

Austin (240 Hoke) here is currently doing the swap. Not sure if anyone else has done it.

 

Very good point, I was considering the 350z engine for quite a while actualy. I couldnt source one for less than $7g's so that one got shot down right away. For that much money I figured I could have the f20c, cams, itb's ect. On that note hytech has designed cams to run with Hayward performance ITB's and with tuning they have gotten 290+whp on a F20C with stock bottom end. Everyone swears that you cant get more than 10 or so hp's from modding the f20c but thats BS. It all boils down to air and fuel. Exhaust upgrades dont get anymore air and fuel into the engine, it just helps get it out if the engine needs help. Many upgrade their header and exhaust but they dont realize is that the stock ones flow as much as the engine needs (in stock form), but when you use a real set of cams and Itb's your engine is using much more air and fuel. and thats when you find that 15+hp from a good header. Its all about balance, the stock f20c wont find much power at all from a header until you do some serious mods. Its kinda my long run plan to have that setup. I know thats alot of money if you look at the total price but its not that bad over a course of time if your getting what your after in the long run.

[Z2000]

I guess Im used to the criticism since all the v8 mustangs and comaros used to hate me and my honda years ago. They deemed 4cyl engines worthless and made a big point to let me know about it too. I got them back one by one though. Each time they talked sh*t I insisted we raced and every time they found me waving back at them in 3rd gear as I was pulling away. 4 cyl engines got a little more respect in my town after those years.

[Gollum]

Well no worries, even the people that might hate you here will still try to support you in some way. We're all about the concept in the hybridZ, make the Z your own, that's what matters. Sure the majority here is about stuffing big V8 engines in the Z, but that doesn't mean it's the only option and most people here realize that.

 

Though... there IS a race prepped rolling chassis datsun roadster in the bay area on craigslist.... might be an even better option than the Z if you're not too tall of a guy.

 

EDIT: You might want to PM 240Hoke, I don't think he spent more on his VQ motor than he would have for an LS1. Although he found his motor locally from a case of somebody wreaking a Z on a test drive.

[RTz]

EDIT: You might want to PM 240Hoke, I don't think he spent more on his VQ motor than he would have for an LS1. Although he found his motor locally from a case of somebody wreaking a Z on a test drive.

 

I pointed Z2000 to a VQ35 w/ 6-speed, for a smokin deal. I just didn't want to jack the thread.

[badjuju]

start thinking about another swap you could have done from the start.

 

enter l28et... lol

 

When I was reading about the l31 build, a page actually used the s2000 motor as an example of why the l6 was such a better motor.

 

same torque, entirely different curves... I personally wouldn't do a 4 cyl swap unless I was swapping it into a go kart. My buddy is swapping a 2.5L Penta motor into his volvo 242, but it's going to be supercharged, turbocharged, and either meth or nitrous injection... but that's different than a 4 cyl swap. he's going to be adding an extra 7-9 pistons, lol

 

The whole site is about doing what you wish with what you wish, but be aware that for the money you will be EXFOLIATING (see st. ives apricot wash commercials) for this project, you could do much better than a hopped up integra motor.

 

IF you decide to do it though, rest assured we'll all be there to offer up ideas and pat ya on the back. also, I'll be reading your project thread avidly.

[Canadianz]

Just to throw in my two cents worth, I think this swap would be pretty cool, expensive but cool. The intended goal for your car sounds like you want something light and fast that revs well too. A cheaper alternative would be one of the 20 valve 4's that the toyota boy's put in there AE86's ... if you bought something like that then you'd save a bunch of money that you could then throw into a small turbo or something. While it wouldn't be Vtec it still would be nice and streetable off boost. Also it would be just as original. The S2k engine is pretty stout and turboing it would be a good bang for your buck too, there was a drift team that was featured in Super Street or Sport Compact car that dropped the F20C with a turbo into their 240sx, as they were blowing up too many SR20's. I guess it comes down to if you have the cash do it, then laugh at everybody who said you couldn't or it was a bad idea, when its done, there might be more cost effective ways too but who knows.

[battlemac]

 

Now I know you guys are wondering why im not on a honda forum and the answer is because I dislike FR vehicles. Next question is why dont I have an S2000 then?

Do you mean you dislike FF cars?

 

Didn't read about an SC F20C making like 260hp and 210tq or something?

What about the Celica GTS/Lotus motor with a rwd tranny?

[rudypoochris]

Found the source for weights:

 

http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/kingk.html

 

I remembered correct, they state 347.6lbs for the F20C. They claim the Lotus K engine, I believe is 212lbs. I believe the Nissan CA is around 270lbs, the Ford Cologne might be a contender around 305lbs (atleast the earlier ones, not sure about the 4.0L Explorer/Mustang motor), and the Buick/Rover V8 at ~325lbs. All those are lighter then the S2000 motor and the two V motors would move the weight back and down which would most likely be better for handling.

 

Those numbers are from Dave Williams list. Version 00.02.04

 

http://www.241computers.com/ford/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=print&ceid=38&mid=30

 

Not sure on their accuracy but even if they are +/-50lbs it is a nice perspective point.

[Z2000]

Do you mean you dislike FF cars?

Nice catch! my bad I meant "FF" setups.

[Z2000]

Found the source for weights:

 

http://www.sandsmuseum.com/cars/elise/thecar/engine/kingk.html

 

I remembered correct, they state 347.6lbs for the F20C. They claim the Lotus K engine, I believe is 212lbs. I believe the Nissan CA is around 270lbs, the Ford Cologne might be a contender around 305lbs (atleast the earlier ones, not sure about the 4.0L Explorer/Mustang motor), and the Buick/Rover V8 at ~325lbs. All those are lighter then the S2000 motor and the two V motors would move the weight back and down which would most likely be better for handling.

 

Those numbers are from Dave Williams list. Version 00.02.04

 

http://www.241computers.com/ford/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=print&ceid=38&mid=30

 

Not sure on their accuracy but even if they are +/-50lbs it is a nice perspective point.

It just seems hard for me to believe those Iron v6 engines would weigh less then the aluminum 4cyl. And im not trying to say there is no lighter 4cyl then the f20c, all im saying is that no other light weight NA 4cyl that can compare in power and reliability.

 

Perhaps some of those numbers were'nt all gathered using complete engines with tranny. maybe its just block and head numbers for some of them and complete engine numbers for others. who knows anyway.

[rudypoochris]

Well you might want to try and keep an open mind throughout your build or you might end up with a purist's car. Just kidding, but really you might blind yourself to other better possibilities. Its your build though!

[Gollum]

Be careful about preconceptions regarding iron block motors. Yes iron is heavier, but it's significantly stronger, and thus iron blocks can be manufactured with a lot less mass. Aluminium blocks are reinforced quite a bit, and thicker all around, meaning more mass.

 

All in all the block is only a SMALL portion of the weight of an engine. Cyinnder heads, crankshafts, rods, and manifolds can all have a significant impact on weight.

 

All that said the numbers might be way off. There's been lots of discussion on this board about the inaccuracy of weights listed online, and how there's so little comparable data out there.

[Guest havoc]

heres a few interesting tidbits from here and there,

 

Weights of interest (US apothecary weights) as filed by Honda Corp with the American Automotive Manufacturer’s Association

 

Cylinder block (machined aluminum alloy) 63.3 pounds

 

Cylinder head (aluminum alloy) 22.7 pounds

 

Intake manifold (aluminum alloy) 9.7 pounds

 

Exhaust manifold (stainless steel) 18.4 pounds

 

Piston only (aluminum alloy) 0.8 ounce

 

Connecting rods (carbon steel) 1.4 pounds

 

Camshaft (cast iron) 3.5 pounds

 

Crankshaft (carbon steel) 37.7 pounds

 

Total dressed* engine (dry) 326.4 pounds

* includes the throttle body, exhaust manifold, alternator, and starter motor

 

Exhaust system (stainless steel) incl pipes 50.7 pounds

 

This informantion was extracted from the AAMA writeup posted by suvh8p. I converted the kg's over to our more familiar measure.

 

 

and to fan the flames a bit more,

 

 

 

First of all hp per lb of engine is about as stupid as a ratio can get.

But I haven't the foggiest idea what sort of math you are using.

LS1: 350hp / 497lbs = 0.70hp/lb of engine

F20C: 240hp / 326lbs = 0.74hp/lb of engine

Looks to me like the F20C beats the LS1 hands down using your silly ratio.

The LS6 beats all though at 0.81hp/lb. Besides, I'm not sure why you say "I don't know where the extra weight comes from on the F20C." The F20C is 171lbs lighter than the LS1. That is a boat load lighter.

 

 

i just thought the second one was funny.

[rudypoochris]

First of all hp per lb of engine is about as stupid as a ratio can get.

But I haven't the foggiest idea what sort of math you are using.

LS1: 350hp / 497lbs = 0.70hp/lb of engine

F20C: 240hp / 326lbs = 0.74hp/lb of engine

Looks to me like the F20C beats the LS1 hands down using your silly ratio.

The LS6 beats all though at 0.81hp/lb. Besides, I'm not sure why you say "I don't know where the extra weight comes from on the F20C." The F20C is 171lbs lighter than the LS1. That is a boat load lighter.

 

 

i just thought the second one was funny.

 

Who are you talking to? Quote the text you are refering to maybe?