AWD setups? What's been done? What works?

[Guest da-man (is not!)]

Hey y'all:

 

Spurred into asking the question by another recent thread: What AWD setups have been put into HYBRID Z's? (or other cars, to which we may be able to relate)

I'd really love to build me one to go play with the EVO's and STI's... and 'cuz I wanna say I've DONE IT.

I've looked at picking-up a JDM EVO half-cut, and just using the whole thing, but I'd rather go with soemthing a little, well, i dunno, beefier?

 

What parts were used in the old Cyclone / Typhoons?

 

any one have any expereince in all of this?

[Shift]

Search.

 

I recall it being done 3x. none of which the details were revealed in.

[Clifton]

I too have looked hard at this. The WRX and EVO are a frontwheel drive platform. There isn't much room infront of the wheel centerline on a Z. Might get crowded. The newer awd trailblazer with an LS would be better but they a driver side front diff. I don't know how much room that drive shaft would take up. I think the best would be an awd Nissan Cima. The diff out put shafts are centered on the engine. Use a VH45 crank or just leave it a VH41. They are auto, which I think would be better but you could use a R32/R33 trans too with an adapter.

[Guest da-man (is not!)]

I too have looked hard at this. The WRX and EVO are a frontwheel drive platform. There isn't much room infront of the wheel centerline on a Z. Might get crowded. The newer awd trailblazer with an LS would be better but they a driver side front diff. I don't know how much room that drive shaft would take up. I think the best would be an awd Nissan Cima. The diff out put shafts are centered on the engine. Use a VH45 crank or just leave it a VH41. They are auto, which I think would be better but you could use a R32/R33 trans too with an adapter.

 

YEah, much the same conclusions I had come to, except that I am unfamiliar with the Cima, so I'm already learning a thing or two here.

I've looked very long at the R32 trans (as a matter of fact, I've seriously considered the RB26DETT w/ it!) but I am under the beleif that it is heavily computer controlled, at least as far as the distribution (front to rear) of torque, based on wheel sensors? Am I correct about this? Does anyone know?

[JMortensen]

I've looked very long at the R32 trans (as a matter of fact, I've seriously considered the RB26DETT w/ it!) but I am under the beleif that it is heavily computer controlled, at least as far as the distribution (front to rear) of torque, based on wheel sensors? Am I correct about this? Does anyone know?

Torque distribution with wheel sensors? I hope not. That sounds like the traction control systems which apply the brake to a wheel that is losing traction. It works, but cars with that setup tend to burn the brakes up really bad on the track...

 

There is a Z in Japan, if you search you should find it, that had the entire drivetrain from an R32 I think it was. Every time it comes up and pictures are posted it seems all the newbies want to build one. It's almost as bad as the OS Giken head.

 

If I were to do an AWD Z car, it would get a FWD engine in the front and another in the rear. Or motorcycle engines with transaxles. I just don't see the traditional layout being too practical for the Z's chassis. I haven't seen the Cima yet. I guess that's a foreign car. Even the idea of the transmission being under the engine has me thinking "Where are you going to put that in a Z?"

[Guest da-man (is not!)]

I wish I could quickly find the article that I was reading about the R32 that led me to beleive this. It was comparing the Skyline R32 to the Porsche 959, and said something to the effect of "a very advanced traction control system that applies torque to each wheel as a function of available traction at that wheel.. blah blah blah"

 

And by the way Jim, I am NOT a "newbie". I made the mistake of taking offense to that the first time you suggested it in one of my threads. I may be new to you, and I may be new on this forum, and I may even be new to 'z's (and you may even recall that I don't own a 'Z', but in fact an early Datsun 1600), but please do not minimize or dismiss others' (my) knowledge or experience, just because it's not YOUR knowledge or experience.

 

Oh look, I've gone and done it again..... taken offense I mean.

I'm so funny that way.

 

If you would like to compare racing resumes, or projects we've built, or whatever, I'd be happy to do that with you. I have NO CLUE who would come out on top. However, I am very happy to appreciate and respect your skills, knowledge and ability, despite having no idea what your real knowledge or experience may be.

I ask only the same respect of you.

 

and i know, you're gonna say that you meant no offense. And I absolutely beleive you. I'm just sayin.....

[blaze73]

What about an Audi Quattro trans/front axles etc. With a short engine hanging over the front wheels it might work.

 

 

 

 

Or drivetrain from a G35X...VQ35 and AWD

 

[JMortensen]

If you would like to compare racing resumes, or projects we've built, or whatever, I'd be happy to do that with you. I have NO CLUE who would come out on top. However, I am very happy to appreciate and respect your skills, knowledge and ability, despite having no idea what your real knowledge or experience may be.

I ask only the same respect of you.

My name is Jon, not Jim. My comment was not about you at all, I'm sorry you took it that way. It was about that one particular car and the reaction it gets from newbies (maybe I should have said ricers) who hyperventilate and swoon when they see it. I don't know who you are or what you know, so I certainly wouldn't try to pass judgment on your statements in general. I know you said you did some motorcycle racing in a previous thread. That's cool by me, and certainly counts for experience in my book.

 

As for me, I have 8 years of autox in an extremely underprepared F Prepared car and some track days under my belt. I've learned more about the car and it's how its suspension works in the last 5 years (when I've been rebuilding it and NOT racing) than I ever knew when I was actually running it. I'm far from experienced by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I'm not claiming to be the authority on anything, and I'm hoping that by combining the theory I've learned here at Hybrid Z and in a few books with the skills I've learned over the past couple years (welding, fabrication, etc) I'll have something that won't still qualify as woefully underprepared when I finally get back out there. I just hope that I can remember how to drive...

[Evan Purple240zt]

Its not a Z, but full race has an AWD S14 240sx. Do a search on it. I think its called an R14. Maybe you can take some ideas from it. There are pictures on the web of the underside. It uses a skyline drivetrane.

 

Evan

[Guest da-man (is not!)]

Sorry Jon. Not sure where I got "Jim" from. And I appreciate your not taking offense to my taking offense..... ?? (does that make sense?)

 

Thanks for your input though.

[Six_Shooter]

 

 

Or drivetrain from a G35X...VQ35 and AWD

 

 

 

Would be nice to see more detailed pictures of that, since it looks like a short set-up (hight wise I mean), and places the front axle outputs in an area in relation to the engine itself that would work well in an S30 (and similar) chassis.

 

The Cyclone and Typhoon used a set-up that is very much like what a 4WD truck used, just that the transfer case worked full time, instead of having that lever and vacuum actuated front diff. It's bulky, and would be too bulky IMO to fit in an S30 (and similar) chassis. I can take some measurements of how tall the engine and drivetrain clearance is of the S-series, when I get home, but it's tall, very tall in comparison to a car.

If you did want to go this route, you could use an AWD transfer case from an AWD Astro van. This was my plan when I was going to convert my RWD Jimmy to an AWD (I had a 4WD frame I was going swap for my 2WD frame). The Astro van AWD transfer cases are much easier and cheaper to come by than the Sy/Ty transfer cases, though still not a dime a dozen.

 

I think to fit best in the narrow Z engine compartment a longitudal engine layout will be needed. To turn the engine 90* would require basically rebuilding entire front unibody section and probably using the donor inner sheet metal to do so. Then as in most FWD/AWD layouts using a conventinal inline or V engine a lot of that weight is forward of the front axle, where as mentioned there doesn't seem to be a lot of real-estate anyway. There would be lots of space behind the engine for turbo(s) or other equipment.

 

The hubs could be adapted from a FWD or AWD car, and if you're not opposed to changing out the struts (would you really be if you're going this far?), then you could adapt that entire set-up from any car that has the right overall hight, and other parameters that would be important, like knuckle mounted tie rod arms, for the steering. If it's rear steer (most likely with a FWD), then in most cases the knuckles can be swapped side for side to place the tie rod attachment at the front. This is assuming of course that the stock or similar layout for steering can be retained.

[blaze73]

Some more pictures here

 

http://www.functiontuned.com/customers-juan.php

[OlderThanMe]

I had a couple ideas for doing an AWD Z.

 

Idea 1:

 

1: Use Nissan R200 or R180 differentials so that gear ratios can be matched front/rear.

2: Put the R32 transmission into the Z32 bellhousing

3: Use adapter of choice to attach your engine to the Z32 bellhousing(or stay with the RB housing if going the RB route)

4: Frontier/pickup/pathfinder front diff which is offset to the passenger side.

 

5_A: Struts from some other FWD car and maybe a set of JY axles that will fit?

OR

5_B: Maybe use Nissan pickup/Frontier hubs and build new control arms to give the desired camber control for a car.

 

 

I was considering doing something like this but...It means more dowtime and I'd need to re-engineer the front end ofthe Z which isn't in the plans until 2+ years from now.

 

I imagine there will be a lot of talk about parts but not enough guts to cut off the front off a Z to do this kind of modification.

[Guest da-man (is not!)]

I imagine there will be a lot of talk about parts but not enough guts to cut off the front off a Z to do this kind of modification.

 

 

DOH!!!!

 

I feel like I just got "called-out"!!!

[Gollum]

Has anyone looked into the prosche AWD systems, they're rear engine based obviously. Might not make any more sense in a Z than putting the engine in front of the front wheel centerline, but hey, it's on the table now.

 

I'm with jon though. If I were to do a AWD Z it'd be two seperate motors. I'd probably look for a light 4 banger that I could get to around 250NA hp or so. (not many I know, unless we're talking about super high CR on high octane).

 

I've also considered how cool it would be to do that very thing, but run the rear engine at 20-40% more power, to offset the understeer the front engine would create on corner exit.

 

Fitting a transverse motor in the front of a Z would be interesting though.

[OlderThanMe]

For a low-buck dual engine setup some of y'all may have seen this:

www.durocco.com as it was posted a while back. Perfect for the guy with a welder and an extra drivetrain and time.

 

 

I would think that a DSM AWD setup would be cool and light. (albiet fragile)

Just use an R180 out back...

[Gollum]

I'm not sure how ontipic this will keep us... sorry.

 

But I've heard from guys who run sub 11s in DSMs that the DSM drivetrain is much stronger than people guess, they just don't stand for beaing beat on, and since most the owners of these cars can't drive for anything, they break often.

 

Granted I personally wouldn't trust one with power levels over 500hp, it might handle more than most people give it credit for.

 

Oh yea: I love the durocco. Perfect example of a modern hot rodder imo.

[Clifton]

I imagine there will be a lot of talk about parts but not enough guts to cut off the front off a Z to do this kind of modification.

 

Give me some more time. I've become bored with my 73 and been collecting parts for a while:smile:

 

I knew the G35 was available with awd, I didn't know the output shafts were so far forward, that's a great pic and IMO, be ideal. I might sell my Q45 and start looking for an awd vq35 engine. My latest plan was to use the whole Cima front suspension and the auto trans. Only problem is the Z fenders. The strut center to center is about 10" wider than an S30, you would have to mount them under the fenders but it should still work. I wouldn't even mess with an RB. Yes they can make power but more CC's = more torque and better drivability, ask anyone here if the regret going bigger. Plus it's a little long when you line the output shaft up where they need to be. The VK45's also come with awd too in the FX45's but I haven't seen a pic of the set up. The awd also Cima uses a cast iron diff with a 3.7 r&p. I don't know if it's an R200 or not and they were never imported either so getting one here wouldn't be as easy as say the awd vq35 but they are older so they might not be too much. Skylines use G sensors and hydraulics for the torque split too.

[OlderThanMe]

Clifton,

You know that the RB AWD trans fits right in the Z32 bellhousing right?

 

Mazworks adapter on the Z32 bellhousing to mate to your VH45, stick the RB AWD tranny (normally thrown away for US motor swaps) into the VG bellhousing, and BOOM! AWD VH45 with a clutch!

 

 

You can just cobble together a bunch of parts from different cars and make it fit better than just transplanting some other front end. I like the nissan truck front end as it has gear ratios that can be matched easily to the rear diff.

A ring gear from a "C200" nissan live axle is the same part number as the R200 ring gear so they can be swapped out easily.

 

 

*edit*

I don't like staying with Nissan parts for no reason... They are quite durable for the power levels they are run at stock. VG transmissions have a safety factor of well over 2! The VH45 block seems to have a safety factor of over 3.0! The L series engines seem to have a safety factor of over 4.0!!!(!!!!!)

 

For those of you that aren't an engineer, Safety factor is design stress over yield stress.

 

so... if the VH45 block has a safety factor of 3.0 and stock horsepower is 300(to make it easy...), then 900 horsepower would get you into the area where you would be stressing the materials to possible failure. Cast pistons usually have a S.F. of around 1.75-2.5 (my made-up numbers..) which means they would be a limiting factor for maximum power output. Forged pistons have a much higher safety factor which makes them more appealing even though there are downsides to them.

[Clifton]

Clifton,

You know that the RB AWD trans fits right in the Z32 bellhousing right?

 

Mazworks adapter on the Z32 bellhousing to mate to your VH45, stick the RB AWD tranny (normally thrown away for US motor swaps) into the VG bellhousing, and BOOM! AWD VH45 with a clutch!

 

I had a vh45 to 5spd adapter and sold it when I got the awd / auto itch. I knew I could run the rb trans with it but I think an auto would be better for me. I was also seeing alot of high power RB guys breaking the 5spds, plus the clutches needed for high torque engines aren't fun in traffic or cheap. I also don't know if the vh45 starter will clear the driveshaft either. The VH41 has the starter centered, above the engine. If I got a Cima front cut I would use the auto with a higher stall converter and just use the vh45 crank. I looked at the trailblazer set up alot too but the trans don't last even on stock engines and would need to be beefed up.

 

I don't know if the vq awd auto would be able to take alot of torque. I know the VH and VG30TT use the same auto trans and can take some torque.