Mike Kelly's Zcar Project

[Mikelly]

110% in agreement with Mark and Clive here.  The motor is only supposed to make 450HP/490 torque anyway.  It's nothing ubber exotic, just a forged bottom end, roller hydraulic valvetrain and big valve heads. 

 

I don't think the guys at EB3 will do a damned thing for me.  They haven't been the most responsive when I've called and talked with them in the past about other things.  Pretty sure this is going to be a "leak down and compression" test, jot the numbers down, and try to sell the damned thing for whatever I can get for it.  And there is no argument that the LS based motors are 100+ pounds lighter, and in my application that is critical. 

 

At the end of the day I want the damned car to run right or be gone so I can buy something that will.  Right now it's a doorstop.

[rags]

Time to drop it off at R&B Auto? We've had pretty good luck with these things lol

[duragg]

Heck Mike, just do a "thumb compression" right now and you will know if there is a dead hole.

Turning a motor slowly by hand with all plugs out and intake open you can feel how the rings suck and blow. Usually tells me more than any of my compression testers do (And i have a bunch). The ones we use for aircraft use compressed air which let's you listen at intake, exhaust and breather to determine your fate.

Thanks for documenting your build, as we've discussed it has been my blueprint lately.

Edited May 19, 2013 by duragg

[rsicard]

You have just proven my point. It has nothing to do with LSx vs 383, it is about time and money. Why keep throwing money and time at an engine that has not worked for how man years now? Not throwing shots at Mike here but why not buy something turn key from factory that will be just as good as the "built" 383. You are talking about numbers, and I am saying dollar for dollar the two just don't compare in the long haul.

 

Say it with me......turn key! =)

It is going to cost LESS time and money to fix the 383 stroker himself.  For quality of parts, quality of workmanship and displacement for displacement, there will be NO difference in longevity, HP and TQ between the 383 SBC stroker and the LSx.  In order to get top performance and emissions out of the LSx you have to run a GM PCM.  That will require a harness, PCM and software to tune the PCM.  That will be a CONSIDERABLE chuck of money.  I came real close to going that route with a 383 SBC stroker.  I have the PCM, wiring harness and needed to purchase the software which would run about $800.00+.  Then I discovered Electromotive.  GM stole their technology from these folks just like they stole LT-1/LT-4 technology from others.

 

For size/compactness and performance of the design engine design, the SBC is really hard to beat.

[rsicard]

110% in agreement with Mark and Clive here.  The motor is only supposed to make 450HP/490 torque anyway.  It's nothing ubber exotic, just a forged bottom end, roller hydraulic valvetrain and big valve heads. 

 

I don't think the guys at EB3 will do a damned thing for me.  They haven't been the most responsive when I've called and talked with them in the past about other things.  Pretty sure this is going to be a "leak down and compression" test, jot the numbers down, and try to sell the damned thing for whatever I can get for it.  And there is no argument that the LS based motors are 100+ pounds lighter, and in my application that is critical. 

 

At the end of the day I want the damned car to run right or be gone so I can buy something that will.  Right now it's a doorstop.

For the amount of money spent an a take-out LSx, installing same in place of the SBC, tuning the LSx PCM, modifying the PCM harness, changing the engine and trans mounting hardware and hassle, would be MONEY ahead to repair the 383 SBC stroker.  For the money saved, an Electromotive EFI/Ignition system could be added.  Then INFINITE tuning ability is available.  If the weight of the SBC is an such a large issue, then purchase an Aluminum SBC block and build up from there.

[SuperDan]

For the amount of money spent an a take-out LSx, installing same in place of the SBC, tuning the LSx PCM, modifying the PCM harness, changing the engine and trans mounting hardware and hassle, would be MONEY ahead to repair the 383 SBC stroker.  For the money saved, an Electromotive EFI/Ignition system could be added.  Then INFINITE tuning ability is available.  If the weight of the SBC is an such a large issue, then purchase an Aluminum SBC block and build up from there.

It is going to cost LESS time and money to fix the 383 stroker himself.  For quality of parts, quality of workmanship and displacement for displacement, there will be NO difference in longevity, HP and TQ between the 383 SBC stroker and the LSx.  In order to get top performance and emissions out of the LSx you have to run a GM PCM.  That will require a harness, PCM and software to tune the PCM.  That will be a CONSIDERABLE chuck of money.  I came real close to going that route with a 383 SBC stroker.  I have the PCM, wiring harness and needed to purchase the software which would run about $800.00+.  Then I discovered Electromotive.  GM stole their technology from these folks just like they stole LT-1/LT-4 technology from others.

 

For size/compactness and performance of the design engine design, the SBC is really hard to beat.

 

 

I'm going to have to agree Mike. For what you already have into plus the fact that it can be fixed there is no reason not to run the 383.

If you want to go efi and make it dead simple I would seriously look at the PowerJection III by Professional Products. I have been hearing good things about it and I am pretty sure it is the route I am going with my new 327 build.

Besides, didn't you already kill a LS1 in a vette? 

[Mikelly]

Somehow in all of these pages guys have forgotten that 18 months ago we installed FAST efi and integrated dash.  I already have standalone efi on this motor and that efi will transfer to which ever platform I would choose. 

 

Dan that motor in that particular Vette was 112K miles of hard running.  There's been a lot of changes to how the LS motors can be made to survive these days.  Adding a drysump to any of the motors is going to cost serious money.  So that's a push.

 

I appreciate all the comments, but if the motor has to come out, then I'm moving onto another platform.  I already have the headers and the drysump pan.  Also have an LS1 shortblock sitting in my shop, along with the z06 intake, nick Williams Tbody and a host of other LS parts. 

[Mikelly]

Got some pics from this weekend posted by F&S:

http://store.fandsenterprises.com/index.php?do=photocart&viewGallery=12470#image=619250

 

Mike

[Madovic]

Mike, whichever way you go with the motor, I hope something good happens for you soon.  You've had your share plus of frustration the last few years on this project.  I'm counting on guys like you to have fun and set the standard while I've got my car apart and have another year or more before I can try to get back to the track.

 

Best of luck, hopefully this will get sorted with minimal pain.

 

Tim

[EvilC]

LSx mounts can be bought for $600, Mike already has the efi system ready to go - the real cost is a pull out which can really range from $2k-$10k crashed car vs brand new crate. The engine and trans takes a weekend to install and get running. Rags and I have set our personal best record time swapping one in last yr - started on a Friday night pulling a dead L28ET/Z32 trans out and had the LS1/t56 installed and fired up open header by Sunday night. 

 

Time vs Money vs Happiness

 

I agree with you guys saying that the 383 could be ran with no issues and so on but we are talking about this engine itself and all the time lost working/fixing it and money spent towing the car around which should be time spent racing. Either way I am sure Mike will get it figured out, just don't sell the car!

[rsicard]

LSx mounts can be bought for $600, Mike already has the efi system ready to go - the real cost is a pull out which can really range from $2k-$10k crashed car vs brand new crate. The engine and trans takes a weekend to install and get running. Rags and I have set our personal best record time swapping one in last yr - started on a Friday night pulling a dead L28ET/Z32 trans out and had the LS1/t56 installed and fired up open header by Sunday night. 

 

Time vs Money vs Happiness

 

I agree with you guys saying that the 383 could be ran with no issues and so on but we are talking about this engine itself and all the time lost working/fixing it and money spent towing the car around which should be time spent racing. Either way I am sure Mike will get it figured out, just don't sell the car!

I was just trying to save him some grief and extra work about changing engines from one type to another.  I am also preparing a 383 SBC stroker, with all forged bottom end, with a T56 transmission for road racing.  Found a baffled racing pan with 2 kickouts and 6 one way trap doors and will back it up with pressurized reservoir.  Have run it on engine run-in stand and have not had a bit of trouble but I did all the assembly work so I know the level of quality parts and workmanship that went into it.  In this day and age, trusting others to do quality workmanship when rebuilding an engine is not being realistic.  Hopefully Mike will be able to get a true dry sump system on the LSx and hopefully has a good (low mileage?) LSx short block assembly to work with.

[Mikelly]

I also plan to retain the TKO600 fivespeed that's in the car...

 

As of right now I am waiting on some parts to come in and I ordered a new set of leakdown/compression gauges.  I'm hoping that I find a solid bottom end in the motor and that it turns out to be to much oil getting thru the breathers and not enough baffeling in the valve covers, coupled with maybe a couple of faulty header tube extractors.  Both were in poor shape, even though they were less than a year old.  I won't be using that setup again.  I've ordered TWO oil/air separators and will run one per head assembly, and plumb everything direct to the intake at the Throttlebody.   

 

All that said, if I find there is damage to a cylinder, I am ABSOLUTELY pulling this motor and parting it out.  It'll be time to move to another motor and I'll be ready for the change.

 

Mike

[pparaska]

Mike, the problem of ventilation and oil breathers in circle track and road racing even with normal blow-by (assuming your ring and valveguide seal is decent) and breather design has been around for a long time, and several methods have been worked out.  Mopar, Ford, SBC, BBC, LSx, others, doesn't matter - the methods are going to be the same and the good ones are out there.  I'd be looking at what winning teams have used over the decades, and hit the racer websites.  Here's one thread that's interesting (I was looking for Smokey's ball-bearing in a tube system and found this):

http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29440

The answer is out there.  If your engine is in decent shape (ring/valveguide seal) then I'd be working on the breather system - take an all-out redesign approach if need be.

Those breathers you have are originaly a Mopar design, IIRC, and have internal baffling.  You may want to do something like this:

http://www.racersspeedshop.com/default/910-17141.html

Maybe relocating the separators up higher would help, as well as baffling the valvecovers. 

I know that with stud girdles on my valvetrain there is little room for baffling in the tall valvecovers.

[cobramatt]

We are home and unloaded. I will do a compression test in the coming days to see what is going on. Break in was 30 minutes run in stepping from 2500-3500, changing oil, running it a few more times with no load and changing the oil again. Couple weeks back I drove the car 1/4 mile to the gas station and back. First hard running time was at the track on Friday. At this point if it is the motor, it is not going back in.

 

I am seriously contemplating a change. I am sick, just SICK of missing track time after so many years fooling with this car. I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks, but I am pretty disgusted with the whole mess at this point.

 

Mike

Hearing you say you are just tired of missing track days and how frustrated you are with your current set up is verbatum my comments years back about my turbo L28. I have been very happy with the decision I made on the LS. 

[Mikelly]

Got some pics from F&S for my 4 laps on track... Hell the car looks fast for the minimal time it was there...

 

[SuperDan]

Looks bitchen!

[Bigdeezs]

badass

[Mikelly]

It was good to "see" these pics because I didn't "Feel" any rubbing in the car, and VIR is a track that works the suspension.  Was nice to have a look at her in key spots around the course.  I never got over 130MPH because of the mechanical issues, but the oil temps never got above 220 and the coolant temps never got above 190.  So overall I think that was good.  Oil pressure was constantly in the 40-50 range.  The car had a little wiggle at speed on the back straight.  I'm hoping that sectioning the front struts and dropping the nose down an inch to add more rake will help, along with some side skirts that are awaiting the arrival of kydex I ordered last week.

 

Mike

[Mikelly]

Today Tom Harris and I did a leakdown test and came away with what are considered very good numbers for a 10.5:1 compression motor with 12 miles and 45 minutes run time on it. What we are thinking may have happened is that the grommet on the passenger side valve cover was leaking, along with one of the Moroso exhaust extractors had failed. I had T'ed the valve covers together so there was NO draw on the valve covers from the intake or exhaust to draw the pressure off the crankcase.

 

To fix this whole mess, I removed the Moroso exhaust extractors and capped off those pipes. I now am running some custom valve cover inserts that have baffles, and I use the moroso valve cover breather routed to a pair of air-oil separators from jegs, and then plumb them back into the snorkel on the intake.

 

I will drive the car in the next day or two to test the theory and see if I can force any oil out of the dipstick tube.

[Mikelly]

So there was a LOT of discussion last weekend about doing a leakdown test and how some thought the motor was broke or rings were improperly installed.  Tom and I did the test and saw on average 4-6% between cylinders.  This last weeks worth of posts is important because as we all have seen, crank case pressures CAN cause real headaches and force oil out of interesting places.  What I did was start researching how the latest models are handling crank case ventilation.  This lead me to buy TWO baffles for the valve covers, to incorporate the valve cover breather tubes from the exhaust extractor kit previously used on the car, and to plumb everthing thru a pair of air/oil separators.  I then ran the lines from the air/oil separators back into the snorkel on the intake.  We expect this to work, but at least now I know the rings are sealing the motor properly, and the valve seals are also doing their job.

 

 

Moral of this story is not to panic, but to also remember that once vacuum is lost, parts can't function properly without that vacuum.  In my case, we had TWO pieces fail.  I will know for sure if the new solution works later this week.  I'll get the car out for a quick 5 mile drive and see how the motor handles the extraction of gases thru the new system.  I was VERY frustrated at being at my favorite track 3.5 hours from my home and unable to drive this car.  Hopefully we'll get to have some enjoyable time in the seat this year... Hopefully.

 

Mike

Edited May 27, 2013 by Mikelly