could this be the RB26 engine solution?

[mattyice]

after looking through quite a few posts on the actual skyline forums it seems like everyone agrees that the only problem with the RB26 in stock form is the rod bolts and that is what the failing point of them is above 600 HP (besides the R32 crank fix), now my question is i found this on ebay

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Rod-Bolts-Nissan-RB26DETT-ARP-RB26-GTR-Skyline_W0QQitemZ180144610874QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3756.m20.l1116

 

technically those sound like a decent solution along with a better oil pump to building an entire motor...how much more the stock rods can handle, im not sure how much and i dont know if anyone does here, but im sure this would be a "value" route rather then building the motor and still get around 600 HP out of it

[dr_hunt]

Basically quality rod bolts are or should be considered a necessary component to any build IMO. I think that is the general conensus here among most of the members. $80 plus resizing the big end is cheap insurance even for a stock build. IMO you want to minimize the risk by protecting the investment of a build. This is just one part of building a motor and certainly a good idea in the RB's.

[triple B]

yeah plus you might as well upgrade everything else while you got that bad boy apart

[pirate87]

Most aftermarket rods include those very bolts. I would definitely not consider rod bolts alone a "quick fix". At 600+hp everything starts to become an issue, especially dependent on the quality of your tune. I would also worry about the stock RB ring lands at those power levels, regardless of the tune.

[mattyice]

well from what i have seen the only failing problem (as internals go) on RB26 motors is the rod bolts snap around that HP...obviously tune plays a HUGE role in that but the rod bolts have already been linked to the main internals problem in the RB26

 

either way im going with eagle rods and JE pistons with an R33 crank and GReddy oil pump...that should be more then enough internally to support what i would like to do

[Careless]

im not questioning anyone's choice for rods, as I have some SPOOL rods that are probably chinese blanks anyways, but the GTR2009 blog ran by tyndago (who also has an extensive site regarding the RB26 and improving their output) states that he would not use Eagle rods in any of his RB26's, and I believe he used to work for motorex and has gotten his entire arms wet in some interesting projects revolving around high-horsepower names and vehicles.

 

A friend of mine had the experience of goinig to an engine builder that showed him two pieces of some rods that had failed. One was an Eagle and the other a SCAT, and the drill press he had took a lot longer to drill a hole in the SCAT than it did the Eagle... Softer metal perhaps?

 

But then I read that those two are also built in the same factory, JCAT's... who coincidentally also manufactures Tomei parts.

 

=/

[stony]

HMMM

 

tyndago He does know alot BUT... seems to me that if you dont agree and buy something he is selling it's crap... everyone has an opinion and he tries to force feed his to everyone. Sorry me no likey

[BirdmanZ]

I think that no matter which brand parts you buy, you still need to have them checked. A competent machinist should be checking the big and small ends of each rod for out of roundness. I believe that some people have just gotten a bad run of a certain product and it goes unchecked thus failing. Then they post it all over the internet and everyone starts bashing it. Bottom line, have all your engine components checked out thoroughly and any problems will become apparent.

 

Brandon

[Careless]

i didn't know tyndago sold parts. good point. i just wondered why he made that comment. perhaps he had posted about the experience at one point? i know eagle has a fairly good rep. curious, i am!

 

remember, im the guy with a romac balancer and spool rods?! lol. theres a lot of nonsense surrounding my parts choice but mehhhhhhhhh.

[mattyice]

if matt aka cheftrd recommends eagle rods then they much be good in my book lol

 

either way im not looking to push the amount of HP recommend for rods, but even at only 150 HP per cylinder thats still good for 900 HP of which there is no reason to have that much in a Z unless you have a death wish lol

[synthtk]

I know a bunch of people that run Eagles with no issues, but for awhile they did have that negative image, but I think it was due to a bad batch like a lot of manufacturers run into during their product life. In my last built motor I ran Pauter rods and CP pistons and loved them but I am not sure what I will be using for my upcoming RB30... seems like options are pretty darn limited there.

[cheftrd]

First, let it be known that I’m not “endorsing†or “advocating†anything here. People will use what they want to.

 

Now, on Eagle rods: It’s a mystery to me as well why Sean would say that. Especially as MANY of the leading engine builders in the industry use them. In fact, the BES 400ci small block Chevy that won the JEGS Engine Masters last time used an ESP crank and rods; making 673hp and 581lb of torque on pump gas. The reciprocating loads in that engine are waaaay heavier than your RB.

 

Eagle rods had a problem… Well, not the rod, specifically, but the bolts. When Eagle entered the import market, the ARP bolts supplied with the rods were 5/16†(I believe) and not up to the task. Bolts are now, and have been for quite a while, 3/8†ARP2000 with the L19 option. But it’s been one of those things that stick around…sigh.

 

Rod failures. I’ve been studying rod failures for quite some time now. Here’s what I’ve found: Probably 99% of catastrophic “rod failures†are actually bolt failures. The rod bolt is the most highly stressed fastener in the engine. Although it can happen, a rod beam separation failure is very rare. To separate, the beam would need to be weaker than the rod bolt (not likely), or have an existing defect that forms a crack, etc. When people see a rod ejected from an engine, they assume it was a rod failure, when actually it was most likely a rod bolt failure. Most actual rod failures are of too forms: Bending and shape-shifting. Too much power (downward load on the rod) can bend a rod beam, but rarely will it separate. I’ve seen lots of rods that severely bent from hydraulicing, but never one that broke. Shape shifting is the bane of the stock rod. High rpm can produce loads that will oval the rod big-end. This, in turn, will destroy the bearing by hammering it on the long axis and “buffing†in on the short axis. Ever see someone get a rod knock and only change the bearing because everything “looks†good, only to have the knock return? That’s because the rod has deformed.

 

Damage investigation: If everything is in the pan or on the ground, it was most likely a bolt separation. Inspecting the bolts will show how they broke. Once the piston and part of the rod are gone, inertial loads on the rod bolts are down to almost zero. They would have to be sheared off by the oil pan rail, etc, to separate from the rod pin. Inspecting how the bolt broke will tell the tale.

 

Eagle rods are a 4340 chromoly forging with ARP2000 or L19 bolts, doweled caps, etc. They are waaaaaaaaaaay better than stock. They are forged in China along with many, many other rods, cranks, etc. Then they’re sized and finished in the US. Here are the features:

• First connecting rod manufacturer to machine on the state-of-the-art Sunnen Krossgrinding™ System to hold extremely tight tolerances! Center to center length +/- .001 Big End Barrel / Bellmouthing +/- .0002 Big End Bore +/- .0002 -- Pin end bore +/- .0002

• Weight savings between 30-70 grams (depending on rod length).

• Reduce balancing cost! Larger stroke applications can see savings of $100.00 to $200.00 on balancing cost alone!

• All Eagle "ESP" connecting rods are available individulally or in sets. Please specify weights on individual rod purchases.

• 3-D Design offers the advantages of reduced weight without sacrificing any of our original rod's strength, offering maximum strength to weight ratio.

• 2-Piece forging for increased strength.

• Ready to run, installation instruction and bolt lubricant included.

• Silicon bronze bushings for floating piston pins.

• Multi-stage heat treated.

• Packaged in weight matched sets end to end +/- 1 gram.

• Certified 4340 steel, vacuum degassed to remove impurities.

• Each forging is X-rayed, sonic tested and magnafluxed to insure quality.

• All surfaces are 100% machined.

• Shot peened to stress relieve the metal.

• Precision alignment sleeves positively locate the rod cap, maintaining big end bore size and eliminating cap walk.

• Eagle "ESP" Connecting Rods provide the strength and durability required in unlimited engines at a sportman rod price.

Ball bearings are the highest tolerance machined thing on the planet. Guess where many of them are made? “Made in China†doesn’t mean bad quality anymore. You want a cheap product? They’ll build it for you. Want a good product? They can build that too. I do a lot of cast welding on turbo housings. Garrett housings are the best quality, with the least amount of impurities and inclusions. Guess where they’re casted?

I’m certainly not endorsing buying China made products. But I also won’t lie and say they only produce junk when that’s simply not the case…

Carrillo makes the best rod, but they’re expensive. Pauter is up there too. I’ve used both. Lately, I’ve gone to the Eagles. They have performed flawlessly for me and allow the customer to put the $500-$700 saved somewhere else. It’s almost impossible for a 4340 H beam rod to fail from too much power. RPM is the rod killer. I’ve spun the Eagles with L19 bolts in RB’s and SR’s to over 10,000. The DSM guys making absurd power swear by them. I’ve had one problem. One piston pin bore was a little tight for my taste and I resized it. It would have worked, but I can’t sleep if everything’s not spot-on… But then we also had a rod bearing spin using a Pauter rod at 11,000rpm in a turbo 4AG on the dyno. I doubt that was the rods fault, but what if I said it was and it got around the Internet? See where that goes. People who have opinions others respect should be very careful of what they say in public forums… ‘nuf said.

After much reading, I decided that forged rods are the way to go. All rods start out as “billetsâ€â€¦ If correct anisotropy is obtained during the forging process, a forged rod can be stronger than a billet, which has single direction grain. This is extremely important in the cap/big end, which can deform under extreme inertial load. Billet manufactures claim less impurities and surface irregularities make their rods better. Forgings like the Eagles or Carrillos are vacuum degassed to remove impurities, and100% of the surface is machined to remove any stress risers. Then they’re X-rayed, sonic tested, etc. This is not to say that an Eagle rod is better than a Pauter rod. There’s a lot more to it than just forged or billet.

One thing is for sure. Eagle rods are leaps and bounds better than the stock rods, and will, without a doubt hold up to big power in an RB. THAT is my opinion on the Eagle rod matter.

 

FWIW, I don’t go over 500hp on the stock RB26 pistons. Sure others have made a lot more, but it’s too close to the edge for me to put my name on. One little thing and you can kiss your ring lands goodbye. I’ve seen 26’s let go of the #6 lands at 500hp with no hint of knock. It’s a used engine; no telling what it’s been through. People love to use coated bearings for the extra protection; I think of forged pistons at the 500hp mark the same way. As long as you’re in the engine, $550 bones on some rods is good insurance too.

[stony]

Alright The Chef Is Back!!!!!

[fentin_fury]

Alright The Chef Is Back!!!!!

 

Yes he is - two posts in a short period of time. Welcome back - and thank you for all your knowledge you are willing to share.

 

Q

[mattyice]

well i would say that pretty much answered my question

 

now matt, on a RB that was going to be running say about 950 HP MAX to the wheels, would you recommend going up to the L19 upgraded bolts on it? or just skip the eagle rods for that type of power, to go with a more expensive rod?

[cheftrd]

Thanks Q.

 

 

well i would say that pretty much answered my question

 

now matt, on a RB that was going to be running say about 950 HP MAX to the wheels, would you recommend going up to the L19 upgraded bolts on it? or just skip the eagle rods for that type of power, to go with a more expensive rod?

 

 

It would depend on the rpm more than the power. High rpm and I would stick with the L19 bolts. My engine, Eagle. Customers engine, Carrillo. Which is kind of funny because my engine currently has Carrillo rods, but was built before Eagle was producing for the RB26... make sense?

[mattyice]

yeah im looking to go about 9,500-10,000 if possible so i would say L19 bolts will be the way to go...looking to do maybe 750 WHP

 

i feel honored to have matt posting in my thread and answering my questions haha

[Z U L8R]

has anyone heard that the eagle rods were made and spec'd THEN the arps were pressed in there thus leaving the circle where the rod-crank bearing sits a bid distorted.

 

that's something i heard a machine shop say and was wondering if anyone else has seen/heard something similar.

 

Dave

[Careless]

has anyone heard that the eagle rods were made and spec'd THEN the arps were pressed in there thus leaving the circle where the rod-crank bearing sits a bid distorted.

 

that's something i heard a machine shop say and was wondering if anyone else has seen/heard something similar.

 

Dave

 

you'd be resizing or honing the final size into the big end of the rod anyway, so I can't see that being an issue. distortion would be to the .001 +/- i bet.

 

I'm sure a competent machine shop can take care of that. It's probably not going to make much of a difference seeing as the bearing should never touch the journal after starting, or at all if you have a good priming system. the only thing i can see being an issue is the rocking of the connecting rod, if any. But I think it's just a machinist trying to tell you that more work is involved, and he either does not want to go through the process or wants to save you money. In the end, you'd be better off with a machinist who checked that distortion in the first place, regardless of whether the rod is eagle or not.

 

Lets face it, there are so many companies saying they make "the best, strongest, lightest" rod on the market for XXYYZZ Nissan engine. And then there's a machinist that just wipes em with some emery paper and slaps em in with bolts that are completely different than the ones the clearances were read and tested with.

 

The ARP2000's on my spool rods are bolt in from the cap side. So this would mean you're talking about L19's right?

[cheftrd]

Eagle rods are cap screw. The bolts don't press in. They have dowels for alignment, the bolts screw in from the cap. Just like Pauter, Carrillo, Crower, etc. etc.

 

Seriously, soemone who has used or even seen the rod and knows what they're doing could never make this up. To come to this conclusion, you either...

 

1. Don't have a clue as to what you're looking at.

 

2. Have never seen it, and are just passing BS You read on the Internet.

 

In either case, I would recommend staying away from that machine shop.

 

I do, however, have another Fram oil filter failure that cost an engine it's life... Too bad the thread is closed.