Is this SAFE????

[ShaggyZ]

What naviathan is getting at, and he may not realize it, is that spacing wheels out further and further past the centerline is what is harder on bearings and studs. Keeping the centerline is fine. While I like the deep dish look, I would prefer our hubs were spaced out another half inch or so in front and back, all else being equal. The guys going for the wide, ultra-low offset wheels (Rota 9.5", -13 offset?) in the group buy are not taking advantage of the inner wheel-well clearance they would/could have with coilovers - they can still run a standard spring/strut(or shock) setup with those. I would want them pulled in a little further, keeping the same tire "widthability" and be as easy on the bearings and studs as possible... and include the option to put spacers on, should I choose .

 

 

I think there's a reason manufacturers of newer cars have been pushing the offset further and further out of the wheel centerline.

 

For me, adapters just increase the complexity and possible point of failure. If I can avoid them, I will - but I probably can't

[rudypoochris]

The guys going for the wide, ultra-low offset wheels (Rota 9.5", -13 offset?) in the group buy are not taking advantage of the inner wheel-well clearance they would/could have with coilovers - they can still run a standard spring/strut(or shock) setup with those. I would want them pulled in a little further, keeping the same tire "widthability" and be as easy on the bearings and studs as possible... and include the option to put spacers on, should I choose .

 

This may be true for the rear, but for the front, in my experience mind you, the limit is NOT the spring perch, it is the T/C rod and frame at full lock. I highly doubt the negative offsets are going to impose any kind of load that the wheel bearings or studs were not meant to cope with.

 

I think there's a reason manufacturers of newer cars have been pushing the offset further and further out of the wheel centerline.

 

I believe this is primarily to reduce scrub radius or to fit AWD/FWD setups requiring a certain amount of spacing for transverse engines. I do not believe this has anything to do with reliability or wheel wheel/bearing failiure and everything to do with handling and the aforementioned spacing.

 

For me, adapters just increase the complexity and possible point of failure. If I can avoid them, I will - but I probably can't

 

Well it is as you stated just that, another point of failure. The wheel needs to self center on the adapter which needs to self center on the hub. It just isn't very snug or sound in my opinion. I would MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH rather have a wheel that fit properly than have one that doesn't and requires adapters/spacers. Thats just my 2 cents.

 

Out of curiosity... the studs on these adapters are OEM replacements (with knurling and such) right, and not some kind of threaded aluminum or anything of that sort... correct?

[Bartman]

What naviathan is getting at, and he may not realize it, is that spacing wheels out further and further past the centerline is what is harder on bearings and studs.

...

I agree, it's the spacing out of the wheels further and further that creates the potential problems. Whether that spacing is due to the use of adapters or a deep dish wheel doesn't make any difference.

[rudypoochris]

I agree, it's the spacing out of the wheels further and further that creates the potential problems. Whether that spacing is due to the use of adapters or a deep dish wheel doesn't make any difference.

 

Really? You think? No doubt the torque and load on the bearings and studs are increased, but I haven't heard of anyone reporting bearing failure or wheel stud breakage due to low offsets. Do you have any information supporting this as it is of a lot of interest to me. I find this hard to believe. A 9" -13 for example has the mounting face 13mm from the center line, right? A 9" +48 would have the mounting surface 48mm from center. There would be more torque on the lugs with the 48mm setup and less on the bearings if I am understanding this correctly. I still don't think it is an issue at all though for the bearings...

 

On the other hand I HAVE heard of adapter failure and wheels coming off at freeway speeds to boot.

[ShaggyZ]

Really? You think? No doubt the torque and load on the bearings and studs are increased, but I haven't heard of anyone reporting bearing failure or wheel stud breakage due to low offsets. Do you have any information supporting this as it is of a lot of interest to me.

 

On the other hand I HAVE heard of adapter failure and wheels coming off at freeway speeds to boot.

 

It only increases the leverage on the bearings, etc. There is nothing say it WILL break, but only increases the potential -- there's no getting around that. Instead of pushing straight down on the bearings (as with a 0 offset and 0 camber), the bearings are being pulled at the bottom and pushed at the top harder in a direction they weren't designed for (kinda), while the studs are being pulled while at the bottom (maybe the top, too, and they keep rotating so forces pull in, out, in, out... or maybe this is going beyond my understanding).

 

To be more accurate, the bearings, because they sit further inboard than the studs, are always being leveraged upon rather than getting a straight vertical force applied to them.

 

 

The forces exerted are likely well within tolerances.

[rudypoochris]

It only increases the leverage on the bearings, etc. There is nothing say it WILL break, but only increases the potential -- there's no getting around that.

 

Correct, but historically HAVE the bearings actually failed prematurely? As I stated before, I know of adapters failing, I do not know of low offset wheels causing bearing or stud failure. I find this hard to believe. It is of interest to me though because if it truly is an issue, well then, it is just that.

 

EDIT: Let me rephrase this bit:

 

I know of adapters failing, I do not know of low offset wheels causing bearing or stud failure.

 

I know of people who have used adapters and have had wheels come off.

[Bartman]

...

Quote: I know of adapters failing, I do not know of low offset wheels causing bearing or stud failure.

EDIT: Let me rephrase this bit:

 

I know of people who have used adapters and have had wheels come off.

That's a big difference. Wheels can fall off whether you run a spacer/adapter or not. Case in point: http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=134009

[bjhines]

The original steel wheels had a lot of "spring" in the wheel-nut lands. You can think of this as lock-washers built into the wheels.

 

The aftermarket aluminum wheels do not give, and do not act like spring lock washers. They have occasionally come off due to owner negligence. This is one example of something that is not as owner-proof as the original design.

 

You want to toss spacers into the mix.... Well that can open an entirely new can of worms for neophyte owners.

 

We had a fella at one of our track events who repeatedly lost wheels while on track at speed. It turns out that he installed hub-centric spacers BACKWARDS! The raised lips were facing the hub-face. Apparently he ordered spacers that were too thin and he decided that installing them backwards would get the extra thickness needed. We have a rule that requires things like new wheels and spacers go through tech inspection before they go out on track. Apparently he broke this rule and could have killed himself or others.

[deja]

I am running 1.5" MM adapters with 7x17 40 offset wheels 215x50 tires on my car. I run it on the street with only one drag race event and no autocross. I don't think there is an issue running with adapters if they are maintained properly. Anyone think running 8" - 9" sticky high tech tires on '70 vintage cars that were never designed for them is more of an issue with stress?

[rbs30]

I see no problem with adapters whatsoever. Im putting 500whp+ through 30mm thick adapters with no probs at all. I only do it on the street and i check all the nuts every few weeks etc but i've never had a prob. I admit i would be a bit weary of using them on the track with slicks etc but i just have the proper offset rims for the track.

[WizardBlack]

Spacers put more load on the wheel studs and nothing else. ARP can mitigate that risk to a great deal. If you use a spacer to get a funky wheel to the right offset for the car it doesn't put more load on the hubs.

Modified wheel offset puts more load on the hub bearings and studs.

 

You can (obviously) have a combination of these two issues.

 

Aluminum (wheels, lugs or spacers) stack up the amount of plastic deformation you will have to continually re-torque against.

[ShaggyZ]

Spacers put more load on the wheel studs and nothing else. ARP can mitigate that risk to a great deal. If you use a spacer to get a funky wheel to the right offset for the car it doesn't put more load on the hubs.

Modified wheel offset puts more load on the hub bearings and studs.

 

You can (obviously) have a combination of these two issues.

 

Aluminum (wheels, lugs or spacers) stack up the amount of plastic deformation you will have to continually re-torque against.

 

This has all been covered.... or am I missing a different angle you're taking?