OlderThanMe Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 I was wondering if anybody has been having problems with the new 10% ethanol gas? I am using it in my 04' (VG33 8.9:1 N/A IIRC) Frontier and it seems that when I am accelerating in 2nd, as I pass ~1700 RPMs @ 35-50% throttle the computer pulls timing(that is what it feels like) and I lose a good bit of power. Something is firing off my knock sensor and pulling timing. Mind you this is the car fully warmed up. This happens about 10% of the time. It is about 95 degrees ambient temperature... This never happened with the non-ethanol gasoline. I would think that the ethanol would evaporate and maybe cause the motor to run leaner to possibly cause the knock? Maybe I'm way off base? I'm really a noob when it comes to ignition and EFI systems... Any ideas? Maybe I should go back to Chevron for gas rather than the cheapo places like QT and racetrac? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjames Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 Seat of the pants tells me that my motorcycle doesn't like it one bit. I get the same feeling of the computer pulling some timing out of it. I try and avoid the ethanol blend, but occasionally it's not a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK-Z Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 Not sure. It could be that the ethanol give off a different A/F ratio that the O2 sensors read and then causes the engine to run leaner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4xwellmurd3r Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 seems to make sense. ethanol contains less energy per unit than gasoline (something like that, basically 1 gallon of ethanol will produce less energy than 1 gallon of gasoline) so you have to run richer to make up for the difference. if the computer doesn't know that, I think it would run a bit funny. not too sure how O2 sensors react to ethanol I just read up on some things. if you go from 100% gasoline to 10% ethanol the engine will run a bit leaner for a while, because the stoich of the 10% is 14.13:1 compared to the 14.7 of straight gasoline. Until the ECU discovers the lean condition and corrects itself it'll run a bit wonky. someone said it took 3 tanks of gas in their Evo before the ECU learned the correct values for the 10% Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted June 14, 2008 Author Share Posted June 14, 2008 Yeah that is what I thought. I have only had access to the 10% stuff for a while now. I've run about 25 tanks of it @ 16 gallons per tank. It ran great at first, but now it really stinks... BTW I drive ~350 miles a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK-Z Posted June 14, 2008 Share Posted June 14, 2008 Newer engines have 2 o2 sensors (OBDII)(in most cases). One before the cat and another after. It could be that one or both are starting to get fouled. Idk, just throwing ideas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnoutZ Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 Someone told me ethanol has a higher octane than gas. I also heard they are discovering because of the high octane it has been found to damage either the injectors or the spark plugs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted June 15, 2008 Author Share Posted June 15, 2008 Someone told me ethanol has a higher octane than gas. I also heard they are discovering because of the high octane it has been found to damage either the injectors or the spark plugs... Well we used to take our 01 Honda Odyssey (great vehicle BTW) on cross country treks to Colorado, Kansas, Ohio, NY, Louisville Kentucky(been there about 10 times), and other places.... Twice we used some Illinois gas that had a fairly high ethanol content(IIRC it was 25%+) and it destroyed the injectors. Fortunately it was still under the factory warranty and Honda replaced them for us no problem. It would have cost upwards of $600 otherwise. Heck I even bought my Frontier at our Honda dealership because of their great service people. LOL. I'm wary of using this ethanol gas in my truck because of what happened to our van. Yes I do have a year left on the drivetrain warranty (5 year 60,000 mile) but I don't want to use it. Can I upgrade the injectors to some newer flex fuel injectors? Mind you that I'm doing 25,000-30,000+ miles a year on this thing and it needs to be reliable... I only have ~51,000 miles on it right now and it is in great shape and has had no problems except that it is now pulling timing under light acceleration and usually going up a slight hill. I'm sure I could go up to 89 octane but I don't think that is necessary and there is still ethanol working at eating my fuel system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4xwellmurd3r Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 higher octane doesn't damage it. Alcohol EATS natural rubbers, and that's what destroys injectors. the ethanol eats the orings and seals inside the injectors, and every bit of rubber in the car. high octane won't hurt a car, but running alcohol in a car with natural gaskets and orings will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
veritech-z Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 I've noticed a SIGNIFICANT miles per gallon reduction when i'm using the 10% mix in my 02 altima 2.5. I can usually milk it to 27 city and 32 highway on straight gasoline, but when using the ethanol mix, i lose about 5mpg on both numbers on average. I suspect the octane properties of ethanol are why we're seeing this 10% mix at all, and it's being used to spike what would otherwise be even lower grade gasoline than normal... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4xwellmurd3r Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 nah they use it because it's "cleaner" even though it kills gas milage. alcohol's burn cleaner than gasoline, so they're mixing ethanol with gasoline to try and reduce the vehicles emissions, at the cost of fuel efficiency. Oh, also, we don't have to import ethanol, we can make it here, so in a way it's also to try and reduce our consumption of imported oils. but who cares about that. with the way gas prices are, the decrease emissions isn't worth the decrease in fuel efficiency and horse power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted June 15, 2008 Author Share Posted June 15, 2008 higher octane doesn't damage it. Alcohol EATS natural rubbers, and that's what destroys injectors. the ethanol eats the orings and seals inside the injectors, and every bit of rubber in the car. high octane won't hurt a car, but running alcohol in a car with natural gaskets and orings will. I was just talking about using higher octane to get rid of the knock, but it still has the ethanol in it eating way at my fuel system. I'd rather lose the fuel system to ethanol than shorten the life of the longblock. I've noticed a SIGNIFICANT miles per gallon reduction when i'm using the 10% mix in my 02 altima 2.5. I can usually milk it to 27 city and 32 highway on straight gasoline, but when using the ethanol mix, i lose about 5mpg on both numbers on average. I suspect the octane properties of ethanol are why we're seeing this 10% mix at all, and it's being used to spike what would otherwise be even lower grade gasoline than normal... I went from 23mpg to 20mpg when all of the gas stations swapped over to the 10% mix. It seems like it would be like 83 octane and then they spike it as you said, with the ethanol. That is about 10% gas mileage loss which makes me think the ethanol does nothing good for combustion. nah they use it because it's "cleaner" even though it kills gas milage.alcohol's burn cleaner than gasoline, so they're mixing ethanol with gasoline to try and reduce the vehicles emissions, at the cost of fuel efficiency. Oh, also, we don't have to import ethanol, we can make it here, so in a way it's also to try and reduce our consumption of imported oils. but who cares about that. with the way gas prices are, the decrease emissions isn't worth the decrease in fuel efficiency and horse power. I understand WHY it is in the gas, but WHAT WERE THEY THINKING!?! Sure we don't have to import it, but to what ultimate cost? I don't have a flex fuel system so its only a matter of time before things get wonky in the injectors and fuel lines. There are other ways to have our own fuel and not use the wonky juice....while all of our cars have the injectors eaten away. If I could buy regular gas, I would even at greater cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillZ260 Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 It really affects my milage too, adv 18ish with ethanol and can get near 20 on straight, thiis is 80% Hwy in '03 4Runner V8. What gets me is that they charge the same for both, don't have to tell you what % mix it is and it can harm your vehicle. I don't get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjames Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 I went from 23mpg to 20mpg when all of the gas stations swapped over to the 10% mix. Are you saying that the only fuel you can buy in your area is ethanol blend?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlderThanMe Posted June 15, 2008 Author Share Posted June 15, 2008 Are you saying that the only fuel you can buy in your area is ethanol blend?? Yeah. I'm on the Eastern side of Atlanta and every single gas station that I have been to has had the required "contains up to 10% ethanol content" sticker on the pump. Oh well. That and gas is now like $4.05 a gallon and $4.50+ for premium which is still below the national average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam280Z Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Ethanol Smog and ozone are why they add ethanol in Atlanta. We have it here in Baton Rouge too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m4xwellmurd3r Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 yeah. they don't really care about if older cars can use it. they only care about making sure that the emissions are lower. even if it is at the cost of engine life (fuel system wise) and since i doubt it'll change, and instead become higher percentages, it's only a matter of time before we'll have to change out lotsa parts to make them flex fuelers. Oh, otm i wasn't reffering to you about them damaging the engine, the poster above you did say that it could though. I think it's STUPID to have the 10% methanol at all gas stations. seriously. how many people own cars that can actually handle any alcohol? like, 5-10%? I mean, supposedly 10% is supposed to be safe for all cars, but whatever. just give me my straight gasoline please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZR8ED Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 I run Sunoco 94 octane in my Z, and have done so for the last 15 years at least. It is a 10% ethanol blend. I have never noticed any problems that I could attribute to the type/blend of gas that I use. I have run SU's, Weber's, turbo with a Modified EFI system, and now turbo with Megasquirt EFI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 Remember, we're discussing the technical aspects of ethanol use in our cars, not the merits of the decisions made by the DOT, EPA, and Congress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillZ260 Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 ZR8ED, has that Sunoco 94 been a 10% blend for all of the past 14 years? I have no idea if there is a standard compound rubber used in gas carbs / FI systems, but it seems that this would dictate how many cars would be affected by the mix, and that the % blend would dictate how soon changes would happen. If it does eat the seals on an injector, what problems does that cause? Does the injector leak and the engine floods out or what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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