proxlamus© Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 So i've been heavily debating which brake setup I should go with on my baby.. Arizona Z car's Wilwood 4 pistons brake setup $789 + proportioning valve - or - Toyota 4x4 VENTED calipers and 300zx rotors $360 I am trying to justify the price.. I would like some more help! Toyota 4x4 vented setup Pros - Cheaper - Parts and rebuilds are cheap and over the counter - 4 pistons - Cheap and easy to find pads Cons - Cast iron?/steel? calipers >> added weight >> retains heat longer which is bad - smaller rotors - they dont look as cool Arizona Z car Wilwood setup Pros - Look amazing - Weight Savings with aluminum calipers - Better heat dissipation with aluminum calipers - Bigger rotors - 4 piston Cons - Expensive - NEED a proportioning valve - Replacement parts and rebuilds are order only and slightly higher costs - Pads are order only and also slightly higher in cost These are things I can think of off the top of my head and I'm sure there are plenty of other pro's and con's im hoping you guys can point out! I need help understanding that they are both 4 pistons.. with the same pad material and the same amount of braking force from the 280zx master cylinder.. shouldn't the car stop the same?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wondersparrow Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 when braking at speed (any speed really) the weight will shift towards the front of the car. The fronts are then capable of using much more braking power. I am pretty sure it works out to more than 80% of the braking is done by the front wheels. Any more stopping power to the rears and they will lock up causing a spin. I personally went with the azc setup on all four corners for my track car. They should have much better cooling, be lighter, and hopefully last longer. The rears that come in that kit are really oversized. honestly, there is probably weight to be saved by using more appropriately sized rear calipers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFancypants Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I think the best compromise between performance and cost is the AZC (or JSK equivalent in my case) up front and the MM 240SX disc setup in the rear. You will still need a prop valve, though. I think the big Wilwoods in the rear are overkill for all but the most dedicated track cars, and you lose your parking brake too (unless you want to add spot calipers for even more $$). - Greg - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnc Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 shouldn't the car stop the same?! Assuming same pad material/co-efficient of friction, same wheels and tires, same brake fluid, same brake lines, etc. then your stopping limit is determined by the grip of the tires. Both setups when properly installed and tuned will lock up all four wheels any time you want. What you gain with the Wilwood setup over the Toyota 4 piston setup is less unsprung weight and more time before the brake system is heat soaked. How much additional heat soak time do you need? Lots of VARA 240Z racers run the Toyota 4 piston setup because that's what the rules require. They can run a one hour race without running into a heat soak problem. At the Cal Speedway Roval they do one big stop from 140 mph down to 50 mph every lap. At Buttonwillow they do three stops from over 100 mph to about 50 every lap (depending on the configuration). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 well that solves it... I have a street car I enjoy taking to the track like 2-3 times a year. thats it Why bother spending soooo much on Wilwoods! If they are good enough for VARA race cars.. its good enough for a street/play car. If I had a full blown track car that never touched the roads it makes sense that Wilwoods would be ideal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMortensen Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 One other thing to be aware of is that the Toy setup uses LONG bolts to attach the rotor to the hub, due to the thickness of the spacer. Use GOOD quality bolts here. Mark Belrose sheared them off of his car. I don't think the damage done was too bad, but it could have been... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZR8ED Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Use NEW bolts. I have had my toyota S12w/300zx rotors for probably 10 years. It has been great on the few track days per year I get to, and works well for the street. Wildwoods for a mainly street car = $$$bling and bragging rights. Scott. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spooler Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I have had both. The 4x4 setup for about 8 yrs. I just went to the AZC Willwood setup and there is no comparision. The Willwood setup is a 10 times better setup. Just my .02. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted March 25, 2009 Author Share Posted March 25, 2009 Spooler can you explain why you feel the Wilwoods are better?! Braking performance? Heat fade? What kind of pads did you have on the 4x4 setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktm Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Spooler, did you have the VENTED 4x4 setup or just the 4x4 solid rotor arrangement? I just installed the vented rotor/4x4 caliper and 240sx rear caliper upgrade and the improvement over modified stock (Power Slot rotors and Hawk HPS pads) was quite noticeable. In my opinion, Wilwoods are overkill on the street and are, as Z8RED stated, just for bragging rights. As John C and Jon are quick to point out, the stock brakes in good working condition are fine for street, drag and Auto-x use. I upgraded to the 240sx rear setup because I needed maintenance on my old drums. I was looking at new shoes and drums, possibly cylinders, and the cost of that setup was as much as the 240sx swap. It was a no brainer for me. I've experienced some brake fade on the stockers a few times and wanted to go with the vented setup for a while. I can lock-up all four wheels (245/50) with my setup, something I could not do with the stockers in their current condition (the fronts were new). The 4x4 S12W calipers are not that much heavier than the stock calipers. I would say that if you are worrying about unsprung weight, then why on earth are you running 16x8 wheels with larger tires? Saving weight on your calipers but running a larger, heavier wheel and tire combo is akin to bailing with a thimble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8INtheZ Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I rocked the vented swap on my old Z with a stock master cylinder and no pv and it worked awesome. I never locked up the tires, but I never really had to. I used new stock drums, but the car would stop faster than any other car Ive been in. It stops way faster than my 99' Cobra and it has some big rotors. I dont know what the Wilwoods are like though, Im sure they are better, but I dont think a street car needs them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slown280z Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Something to consider, and possibly acquire to mess with... 84-88 200SXs have a guy making brake upgrades using the 4x4 toyota vented caliper but then a hat for wilwood/coleman/etc bolt on rotors. I think that would be the best setup for occasional track use, that way you can use as big or small as a rotor as can work with the calipers/your wheels, and they normally run as much/cheaper then OEM rotors! That and instead of using long bolts and a spacer, you use rotor hats with about the same length bolt as stock. Also, if you get nice rotor hats (Design Engineering I think...) it would allow rotor replacement without having to mess with wheel bearings/hubs. On a side note, anyone know about every how often should you change front wheel bearings with occasional track use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spooler Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 No I didn't have the vented setup. The set was on my car since 1995 and I got ride of it in the last couple of months. I could warp the rotors within 3 months. Been able to do that on every Z I have ever owned.....LOL Couple of 100+ blast and jamming on the brakes to make a quick turn over time takes it's toll on those small rotors. ( Living in the boonies has it's pluses LOL) I went with the drilled slotted Willwood setup on my car and I am injoying every minute of them. Got'em broke in good the other day and jumped on the brakes to make a quick left. I had to let off because I was stopping before the turn LOL and I wasn't even on them good. I forgot to add..... Best money I have ever spent on the car!!!!!!!! I hate crappy brakes.... Ever overheated your brakes to where you had NONE!!!!!!! I have ONCE..... Never again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted March 26, 2009 Author Share Posted March 26, 2009 No I didn't have the vented setup. The set was on my car since 1995 and I got ride of it in the last couple of months. I could warp the rotors within 3 months. Been able to do that on every Z I have ever owned.....LOL Couple of 100+ blast and jamming on the brakes to make a quick turn over time takes it's toll on those small rotors. ( Living in the boonies has it's pluses LOL) I went with the drilled slotted Willwood setup on my car and I am injoying every minute of them. Got'em broke in good the other day and jumped on the brakes to make a quick left. I had to let off because I was stopping before the turn LOL and I wasn't even on them good. I forgot to add..... Best money I have ever spent on the car!!!!!!!! I hate crappy brakes.... Ever overheated your brakes to where you had NONE!!!!!!! I have ONCE..... Never again. Ah that makes more sense.. I am running the non vented setup right now and its terrible. This thread is discussing the vented 4x4 setup vs the wilwoods from azzcar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbyc Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 do you have to source calipers for the 4x4 setup? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share Posted March 27, 2009 Advance auto parts has them for $45 plus $25 for a core charge. You can buy them loaded for $83.99 The site is down but I believe AutoZone has them loaded for $139 + $50 for a core charge. Ill prob hand in my s12+8 non vented calipers in the box and they prob wont even notice lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8INtheZ Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Heating a rotor in itself wont warp them. The warp comes from heating them and then holding the pad againts the rotor when you arent moving. A good example is coming down a big hill, you apply the brakes for a decent amount of time to keep from gaining too much speed. Once at the bottom, you stop at a red light and just hold the brakes. The rotor starts cooling off everywhere except where the pad is up against the rotor, that stays hotter and warps the rotor. I have always been "hard" on my brakes in all my cars and have yet to warp any rotor, stock or not. Its mostly in how you drive. ymmv Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8INtheZ Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 By the way, I have had great luck getting s12w calipers on Ebay. Just bought a rebuilt set for $30 after shipping. My first set I got a loaded pair for like $19 after shipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNkEyT88 Posted March 27, 2009 Share Posted March 27, 2009 Anybody know what the weight is on The S12 caliper, and the S12W? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proxlamus© Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share Posted March 27, 2009 Sweet.. i added everything up.. Spacers > .375" (280z hubs only) from SummitRacing.com $60.95 per pair Calipers > 1990 Toyota 4 Runner from RockAuto.com $50 each + $30 for a core Rotors > 1984 Nissan 300zx vented from RockAuto.com $30.79 each Pads > Hawk ~$120 Master Cylinder > 1981 Nissan 280zx 15/16" brake master from RockAuto.com $28.79 (without caps and reservoirs) Grand total of $371.95 plus shipping for the entire setup. Thats a $418 dollar savings! from Arizona Z car's setup. *note* I may also need to make my own brake lines.. but thats not too much *note* Seriously you can't go wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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