Wilwood versus 4x4 vented .. pro's vs con's

[TrumpetRhapsody]

You were running the stock smaller MC with vented toyotas and 240sx rears? The pedal effort wasn't too much?

[bjhines]

I also track an E36 M3 and the Datsun's braking is right in line with the newer BMWs effort. I use Hawk Blues on all 4 corners on the M3.

 

I liked the pedal effort with the stock MC, The pedal effort was exactly what it should be. I do not like inline proportioning valves. They can behave differently for long braking zones than they do on short braking zones. I didn't change a thing but the calipers and rotors. I had good pedal height for throttle blips on downshifts, but my gas pedal was connected to triple Webers and may not be the same height as stock.

[ktm]

I have the S12W and 240sx setup and can dial in front-rear balance. I am using Porterfield R4S in the front and KVRs in the rear.

 

I got my setup for considerably less than the Wilwood setup. I bought all my parts from members here save for the front brackets. I did the entire setup for around $450, front and back.

[Zmanco]

I ran Hawk blues up front, Hawk Blacks in rear, stock 72 MC, and stock bias valve. I had great balance, with an occasional tendancy to drag an inside rear wheel.

I have the S12W and 240sx setup and can dial in front-rear balance. I am using Porterfield R4S in the front and KVRs in the rear.

bjhines and ktm, did either of you use those pads on the street? I'm wondering how they were when cold?

[bjhines]

Hell no! Do NOT use them unless they are hot, hot, hot. They ruin wheels, they ruin paint, they ruin rotors fast when cold, They don't stop very well when cold, They squeal and grind when cold. Those are track pads and NOT something you want for a street car.

 

You want regular old organics for street. There is no such thing as a dual duty brake pad. I use stock type pads on the street and full race pads on the track. There is no reason to buy blingy pads for typical street driving, even mountain roads have absolutely NO parallel with track use. There is nothing you could do on a street that even comes close to the abuse you can put on a brake system on track.

 

Even the Hawk blue pads fade in certain braking zones, But they are still well within their abilities. The pedal effort grows towards the end of a high speed braking zone, but I have good modulation and I am not standing on the pedal with my butt hovering above the seat.

[JMortensen]

The silvermine kit lists 10.8" Front and 11.8" in the Rear. If it were reversed I think I would have already bought them.

That does seem like a mismatch. Maybe you should buy the fronts from them and the rear 300ZX kit from Modern Motorsports. They both use 300ZX front and rear rotors...

[Sideways]

Just a thought on that 10.8 front and 11.8 rear- Is it possible the front is vented, and the rear isnt? Wouldnt be the first time Ive seen a set up like that.

[bjhines]

The typical(Modern motorsports) vented front and 240sx rears system has larger rear rotors than the front, It also has vented front and NON vented rears.

 

I and many others have said a thousand times, The system is absolutely fantastic.

 

The people who say, They can't get them biased right, or the system is mismatched, are not working in reality. I am willing to bet that I could fix their problems and send them merrily on their way in 30 minutes. Most of the problems people have with these systems are because they are amatures and have no idea what they are doing in the first place.

[bjhines]

Just a thought on that 10.8 front and 11.8 rear- Is it possible the front is vented, and the rear isnt? Wouldnt be the first time Ive seen a set up like that.

 

I have a BMW M3 and it is the only 3 series with vented rears BMW made up to Y2K. That is their top of the line sports car. You simply will not find vented rear rotors on anything but the most expensive cars in the world. What makes you think you need vented rears in the first place? The VENTED FRONTS are the first to fade on track every time!

 

I have a 3/4 ton Van with vented rears, but that is their heaviest brake upgrade package from the ONE TON series.

 

Many sports cars built after y2k have been fitted with vented rears. This is not somehting you can compare with your NON ABS, NON ASC, NON Traction control, NON stability control, antique S30. These modern stability enhancement systems use the rear brakes to control the car without any brake input from the driver. This can QUICKLY overheat the rear brakes and is the primary reason they use VENTED REARS on these modern computer driven cars. You DO NOT NEED vented rear brakes on your NON computer driven cars.

[JMortensen]

The people who say, They can't get them biased right, or the system is mismatched, are not working in reality. I am willing to bet that I could fix their problems and send them merrily on their way in 30 minutes. Most of the problems people have with these systems are because they are amatures and have no idea what they are doing in the first place.

I think I am one of the people who talks a lot about bias issues, but that isn't the setup I was running. I ran Toy 4x4 solid rotors in front and early 280ZX (10.5" rotors) in back. With that setup I ran without a proportioning valve at all and still the car wouldn't lock the rears while driving through a puddle and slamming on the brake pedal at a driving school.

 

It's possible that changing pads would have helped, but I didn't know enough at the time to really get into running different pads front and rear. What did work on that setup was switching back to Z 2 piston front calipers.

 

As to your comment about vented rear brakes, I think you're mostly right, but maybe a bit overstated. I know the BMW's need more rear brake than they have. I had a friend who was a BMW mechanic and he would tell me about people going out for track days and ruining the rear brakes, especially the cars that didn't have an actual LSD and just relied on applying the brake on the inside rear to keep the tires from spinning.

 

Again to use my own experience, running those same 280ZX rear disks at an autox, with 3 drivers and 4 runs each I got the rear brakes so hot that I couldn't touch the wheels. I've also had cheap pads chunk on the rears at the track as well. I think it is possible to push a small solid rear rotor too far, especially when the bias is correct. Most of your aftermarket "big brake" kits have vented rear rotors, and I don't see that as a particularly bad thing. It may be a bit overkill for most people, but it reduces the likelihood of pads disintegrating or fluid boiling. I do agree wholeheartedly that the front is the one that is likely to have problems, the harder you can brake in terms of g forces, the more the front brakes do relative to the rear, so the faster the car gets the more front brakes you need.

[ktm]

Zmanco, the Porterfield R4S is a street pad as is the KVR. They are fine when cold. I have not had a oh sh** moment with them.

[srbigbutt]

That does seem like a mismatch. Maybe you should buy the fronts from them and the rear 300ZX kit from Modern Motorsports. They both use 300ZX front and rear rotors...

 

I thought about that as well. But the MM rear is still 11.4 inches. I'm not sure what size the fron MM kit is. I'm thinking of either going with the AZ fronts and Silvermine rears to keep the parking brake. Or just get the full AZ kit. I would also like to find out more about the Cobra kit.

[Ben]

Not meaning to digress from the direction that this topic has gone, but...

 

I had the S12 4x4 setup on my car with R31 Skyline rears and a Willwood prop valve.

(an adjustable prop valve is a must once you get carried away!)

 

I have now got the S12W/300ZX setup on the front and are having one heck of a time finding wheels that have enough x-factor to clear the front callipers without spacers.

 

It looks like Rota Grids are no good, but I'm not sure about RB's in 15x7, 15x8 16x7 or 16x8 +4.

 

Garrett from MSA is looking into the wheels they have (Konig, Sportmax etc) to see if any will fit.

 

It seems that 280ZXT Swastika's fit, but what others are known to be ok?

 

Can some of you guys that are running this setup (with the calliper directly mounted to the strut) comment?

[frank280zx]

I have a BMW M3 and it is the only 3 series with vented rears BMW made up to Y2K. That is their top of the line sports car. You simply will not find vented rear rotors on anything but the most expensive cars in the world. What makes you think you need vented rears in the first place? The VENTED FRONTS are the first to fade on track every time!

 

I have a 3/4 ton Van with vented rears, but that is their heaviest brake upgrade package from the ONE TON series.

 

Many sports cars built after y2k have been fitted with vented rears. This is not somehting you can compare with your NON ABS, NON ASC, NON Traction control, NON stability control, antique S30. These modern stability enhancement systems use the rear brakes to control the car without any brake input from the driver. This can QUICKLY overheat the rear brakes and is the primary reason they use VENTED REARS on these modern computer driven cars. You DO NOT NEED vented rear brakes on your NON computer driven cars.

Im not debating the need of vented brakes in the rear? But an 88 eurospec z31 has vented rear disks....that is before y2k

 

On the subject i think vented rears on a car with the weight on Z , like the AZC kit is a complete overkill.

A friend runs top 10 victory´s with his 65 SHelby 350GT with basically e39 5 series disk on 4 pod calipers and drums in the rear for 6 hours straigt. (6 hours of spa.) not heat soaking or changing pads during the 6 hours.

Like BJHINES said before it is all about the set up, pad used, and i might ad brake fluid.

An s30 has no need even in track use for vented rears

[Zmanco]

I have now got the S12W/300ZX setup on the front and are having one heck of a time finding wheels that have enough x-factor to clear the front callipers without spacers.

By "x-factor", do you mean offset? I have the same setup on my 73 and run 16 x 7 Panasports. IIRC they are zero offset. No clearance problems at all. MSA sells them too - not sure why they don't recommend them for you?

[Ben]

Re; X-factor, see Wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_sizing#X-factor.

 

But in short, it's the calliper clearance around the hub/spoke area. The reason people need to use spacers with bigger brakes (read 'wider callipers') is insufficient X-factor.

 

The trouble is, in Australia wheel spacers are illegal, and my car will need to be inspected (again) when I (eventually) fit my new L28ET. Further to that, slip-on spacers are not all that great for the hub-centric alignment of the wheel.

[Zmanco]

As I said, the Panasports fit with no spacers. Again, not sure why MSA doesn't recommend them to you as that's where I bought them.

[ktm]

I have now got the S12W/300ZX setup on the front and are having one heck of a time finding wheels that have enough x-factor to clear the front callipers without spacers.

 

It looks like Rota Grids are no good, but I'm not sure about RB's in 15x7, 15x8 16x7 or 16x8 +4.

 

I am running 16x8 +10 Rota Grids with the S12W setup. I used a +10 mm spacer to clear the brakes. Of course that required longer studs, but they are cheap and it only takes an hour to install them on both sides.

 

Further to that, slip-on spacers are not all that great for the hub-centric alignment of the wheel.

 

Wheels may be hub-centric, but the front hub of a 240z is setup for lug-centric wheels. Hub-centricity is moot. Whenever I tighten up my wheels, I have to make sure they are off the ground and tighten in steps to make sure the wheel is centered.

[Spooler]

Buy what you can afford. Overkill on brakes is a good thing. I had the solid rotors and Toyota 4x4 calipers up front with the 280zx rotors, calipers, etc. on the back with a adjustable proportioning valve. I hated that setup. This time I just went for the gusto and bought the Willwood setup and used the upgraded MC. Haven't looked back since and enjoying the setup. The vented fronts and 240sx rears may be real good. I just didn't want to take a chance on that setup. I am hard on brakes...LOL

[Ben]

I am running 16x8 +10 Rota Grids with the S12W setup. I used a +10 mm spacer to clear the brakes. Of course that required longer studs, but they are cheap and it only takes an hour to install them on both sides.

 

Wheels may be hub-centric, but the front hub of a 240z is setup for lug-centric wheels. Hub-centricity is moot. Whenever I tighten up my wheels, I have to make sure they are off the ground and tighten in steps to make sure the wheel is centered.

 

I thought that the Z only used the lugs for locating, so never mind that aspect!

 

I was considering the Grids, but as you have said, they are no good in the +10. I'm currently looking at RB 16x7 F and RB16x8 R as an option.

 

Cheers,