Why are triples such a pain?

[Mycarispurty]

So now that it's warming up outside a little and I can stand to get out there, I decided to go ahead and try to mount my triple Webers and get them at least installed so I can bask in their glory, whether the car runs or not. I have to grind on the header flange and a little on the manifold for about 30 minutes with my Dremel so the two manifolds at least mount up. Well I finally got it to work so I install the washers and nuts (2 or 3 of the studs don't even get nuts because there isn't any header flange there to bite down against) and I go to mount my intake manifold, and now it won't even bolt up at all because the nuts now get in the way of it laying flat against the head. Plus one of the exhaust studs broke off while screwing the nut down, and it wasn't even tight, was still turning by hand. I'm about ready to sell these damn carbs (cost me a fortune in the first place) and maybe even just sell the whole motor and put in a SBC or SBF, or just sell the whole damn car if I could find someone to buy or trade it!

[JSM]

Adversity gives us growth. Hang in there

[T-Bone028]

I feel like I'm in the same boat. I have a complete set-up for DCOE 40's sitting in a box (linkage, manifold, etc). I've contemplated swapping out the SU's, and bolting up the webers. I've read countless posts on why they are awesome, and how great they are after they are tuned. But yet, they still sit in the box untouched.

 

Why they will stay in a box for another year:

 

1) I'm too lazy (i.e. stupid) to rebuild them

2) I'm scared of breaking a stud off in the head

3) I'm relatively happy with the SU's

4) I havent heard or seen them (in person) on another Z yet.

 

I know once number 4 occurs, I will most likely swap them in. If I ever ride in a stroker with triples, if it blows my mind (and I have a feeling it will), I will definitely swap them in. Best of luck to you sir!!!

[Tony D]

Ive never had to do any of that. If the parts are quality, this is not an issue.

I have seen some American Produced castings that people have ground the heck out of to fit, but quality pieces from Mikuini or just about any japanese casting place have no issues whatsoever. Buy cheap....

 

Make it fit.

 

It's the way of the world. You get what you pay for. Ditch a dremel, get a real die grinder or hand belt sander and you will find your long arduous task takes mere seconds instead of minutes. "Right tool for the job"---in a way goes back to the being cheap as well. It takes forever to pull an engine using five guys, a length of pipe and railroad ties as step stools, about 30 minutes with a rented engine hoist...

 

You make your choices in life, some result in a long, hard, road!

 

If you're stumped by small general machinsit's issues bolting on a set of triples....forget the SBC swap!

[Zmanco]

Well I finally got it to work so I install the washers and nuts (2 or 3 of the studs don't even get nuts because there isn't any header flange there to bite down against) and I go to mount my intake manifold, and now it won't even bolt up at all because the nuts now get in the way of it laying flat against the head.

 

I'm having a hard time visualizing this. When I had triples I would first mount the header using the middle and two outer studs. Then I'd mount the intake manifold. It's a lot easier if you already have the studs screwed into the head. Except for the 2 outer and the 3 in the center, all the studs had intake manifold flange on one side and exhaust flange on the other. The factory washers are pretty thick (~5 mm) and span across both flanges. Perhaps you can post a picture? Is there something non-standard about your header flange?

 

BTW, sounds like it might be worth buying a new set of head stud hardware. They get corroded over time and with triples, it's hard enough to get a wrench on the nuts, even more difficult if the nuts bind in any way.

 

And yes, triples are a lot of work especially compared to SUs. Are they worth it? I really enjoyed them, but tired of the trial and error approach to swapping jets at $30-50 each attempt. Eventually I went megasquirt but I do miss the sound of the triples. They were louder than my exhaust and glorious to listen to on the track. Plus, no one comes over and drools on MS like they do on triples Hang in there - I think you'll find it worth it.

[Tony D]

Bolting on a set of triples should be no different than bolting on a set of SU's if you have a decent kit.

 

As for long term, I set my jets on time on the dyno in Japan at 56m above seal level, and they have not required changing since 1985...even though the car has been shipped to the States, and operated at various altitudes (and is currently at 700m above sea level). Eventually EFI will supplant them, and I will not loose the sound, the bodies of the carbs make for great ITB's with the addition of injector bungs to the manifold. The power I'm leaving on the table by sticking with a restriction in the inlet (36mm main venturi on 44mm carb) is too much for me to ignore.

 

The myth of triples continually needing attention, or 'more' attention than SU's is one that will be hard to put down as so many people skimp and refuse to do it right the first time. Same goes for SU's...there's a reason they sell a Holley Four Barrel Kit for the Z...

 

Lack of preparation before a conversion always spells disaster. No matter what the project is!

Edited February 25, 2010 by Tony D

[cygnusx1]

The myth of triples continually needing attention, or 'more' attention than SU's is one that will be hard to put down as so many people skimp and refuse to do it right the first time. Same goes for SU's...there's a reason they sell a Holley Four Barrel Kit for the Z...

 

+1 to that.

[Dtsnlvrs]

Bolting on a set of triples should be no different than bolting on a set of SU's if you have a decent kit.

 

The myth of triples continually needing attention, or 'more' attention than SU's is one that will be hard to put down as so many people skimp and refuse to do it right the first time. Same goes for SU's...there's a reason they sell a Holley Four Barrel Kit for the Z...

 

Lack of preparation before a conversion always spells disaster. No matter what the project is!

 

Quoted for truth

 

[wondersparrow]

I am in the same boat. I inherited a bit of a headache that way with my track car. Once together everything works great. With the crappy (pacesetter i think) header I have and a no name intake manifold for triples, getting them that way is a pain. It seems I need to replace 3 or 4 studs every time I take it apart. It always appears to go together nicely. No leaks, torques down fine (well the ones I can get a socket on). For some reason I find it virtually impossible to get them undone cleanly. While undoing nuts, sometimes the socket slides against header tubes or intake runners. Things get bound up, tools get stuck, i get ignorant, and studs get bent. This time I am really going to shop around for a set of studs that are the right length. I want to find something that only has 4 or so threads sticking out once its all tightened down. I am also going to look for some thinner washers. The 1/4" beasts it came with are a little much I think. I know the washer has to be strong so it can clamp both the intake and exhaust, but there has to be something better out there.

[Tony D]

I am also going to look for some thinner washers. The 1/4" beasts it came with are a little much I think. I know the washer has to be strong so it can clamp both the intake and exhaust, but there has to be something better out there.

 

DONT! Thinner washers are prone to flexing, and can cause vacuum leaks! What I did was go 'pick of the litter' from cars in the junkyard, every time I see someone who has pulled manifolds, I harvest those thick washers, and grade them into same thickness and flatness. It helps when they are uniform.

 

Turning them on a lathe out of a piece of stainless round stock with a parting tool will make some that look nice, but not be any more functional than the OEM bits. The biggest thing I see is that american header manufacturers (until REALLY recently) simply refused to buy the proper thickness flange. There should be no big 'angle' these washers need to bridge. If you have a cheap header with tabs of scrap welded on to make it even with the intake flange thickness, drill the hole bigger in the center. It will keep the washer from binding adn stressing the stud while in operation. It will also help them clamp somewhat better, but because the cheap flange is so much different from the height of the intake manifold, they simply won't clamp effectively. Weld on more crap to the header flange---or better yet, buy a new header with the RIGHT flange thickness---they're what? Like a couple hundred bucks. I just bought one that was coated, and it wasn't that outrageous. Bought it kicking and screaming, and only because my stock manifold was trashed.... Because of the sourcing of the flange (which is now cut properly) the old problems with nut clearance and washer binding are greatly diminished. Not that I EVER had any problem with the JDM headers---they went on and off like OEM cast peices. They had a proper thickness flange, they had a proper header washer to tube clearance... Easy on and Easy Off.

 

But those thick washers don't flex AT ALL, and that's what you want when clamping things.

 

I don't re-use studs. When the manifolds come off, I get new studs. Now, having JUST replaced a header on my SU's let me tell you, that last set of studs was on there for 10 years, and 60,000 miles. So what was the cost per mile of a new set of studs and flanged nuts?

 

Which brings me to flanged nuts. I use them. They have little serrations on the bottom that really bite nicely into the OEM washers, and really work to keep them flat between the flanges. I got the tip from JeffP, and singe using them, I'm sold on using them. I don't put lockwashers on there any more. Serrations hold fine, flange spreads out loading so the washers should clamp better. And yes, after 10 years, and 60K miles I replaced those as well.

 

Do I really have to make the comment about being incredibly cheap if you are re-using exhaust hardware? Except the washers. Everybody uses those over. And since I cut mine on a lathe with a parting tool out of stainless steel some 25 years ago and haven't yet run out of my 'washer box' of junkyard examples let's forget about reusing those---that one is O.K.

 

The nuts, lockwashers, and studs are disposable.

 

BTW, if you don't use lockwashers, and use the flanged nuts, you have more thread engaged positively and they spin on nicely to stabilize the washer before you drop the intake down on top of them...

 

You guys do put the washers and nuts on before you lower the intake manifold on, right?

[LowCarbZ]

Knock on wood, i've run my car two full seasons with a lot of driving and no issues at all on my set of DCOE 40 Webers. All over the province, all kinds of temperatures and conditions.

[wondersparrow]

Well, I put them on, not tight in any way obviously, then tightened after the intake was installed. I also don't really mind replacing them. My car is a track only car, I have only had it a couple of years and I will be replacing them for the third time ( got new header, wrapped new header, and now a head gasket). Out of curiosity, where do you get your studs, what size, etc. The ones I tried last time were a generic pack I got from napa. They are ~2" long and have a 6mm hex head on em. They seemed great at first, but they were lock nuts on them. It took more than 8ft-lbs just to turn the nut on, so it was hard to get a proper torque. That, and, they were just too long. There is no way to get a deep socket over at least 2 of em.

 

Following true to the thread, I find even the carb bolts to be a pain in the arse at times. With the 45's at least, you barely get any turn before you have to readjust the wrench. A tricky feat for sure, in the dark, at the track, after your trouble light has run out of batteries. That being said, once it is all in, its one of the best sounds out there and totally worth it

 

One of my favorite quotes... "Its takes a team of top engineers to put a bolt where no man can put a wrench"

[letitsnow]

MSA sells the entire stud kit, with the large top bolts(12mm I think) for something like $17. http://www.thezstore.com/page/TZS/PROD/PEC05/15-8080

Edited February 26, 2010 by letitsnow

[wondersparrow]

Nice, I'll check on the price of shipping tomorrow.

[Daeron]

Haven't done any intake/exhaust work myself since getting them, but I must say, GearWrenches are worth their weight in GOLD!!

[bradyzq]

Haven't done any intake/exhaust work myself since getting them, but I must say, GearWrenches are worth their weight in GOLD!!

 

As are flex head Gear Wrenches and, of course, for the absolute win........ wobble extensions. With the extra few degrees a wobble will give you over a standard socket extension, you will be amazed what you can get a socket on.

[wondersparrow]

I have a few sets of gear wrenches, yes they are fantastic when you can get them on and have room to move. What I need more than that is a 12mm (I am pretty sure thats the size, I haven't had coffee yet) wobble head socket. I find if u use a normal socket with a wobble adapter, its still too long. the ones where the swivel is on the socket work better. That again brings me back to needing shorter studs

[FricFrac]

I feel like I'm in the same boat. I have a complete set-up for DCOE 40's sitting in a box (linkage, manifold, etc). I've contemplated swapping out the SU's, and bolting up the webers. I've read countless posts on why they are awesome, and how great they are after they are tuned. But yet, they still sit in the box untouched.

 

Why they will stay in a box for another year:

 

1) I'm too lazy (i.e. stupid) to rebuild them

2) I'm scared of breaking a stud off in the head

3) I'm relatively happy with the SU's

4) I havent heard or seen them (in person) on another Z yet.

 

I know once number 4 occurs, I will most likely swap them in. If I ever ride in a stroker with triples, if it blows my mind (and I have a feeling it will), I will definitely swap them in. Best of luck to you sir!!!

 

 

You just need some inspiration....

 

[bradyzq]

I have a few sets of gear wrenches, yes they are fantastic when you can get them on and have room to move. What I need more than that is a 12mm (I am pretty sure thats the size, I haven't had coffee yet) wobble head socket. I find if u use a normal socket with a wobble adapter, its still too long. the ones where the swivel is on the socket work better. That again brings me back to needing shorter studs

 

 

To clarify, a wobble extension is NOT a u-joint! It's an extension with a rounded off end that allows 15ish degrees of slack, like this:

 

http://www.supermotors.net/getfile/463262/original/wobble.jpg

 

The extensions themselves look like this:

 

http://www.vapormatic.com/_assets/images/vla1269.jpg

 

They can really help when trying to get around header primaries.

[oldhemi]

Not to hijack, any reason that brass nuts cant be used on the exhaust/intake studs? I just took manifolds off of an l28 that I recently picked up that had mostly new-ish looking studs and brass nuts with a flat washer molded in(with "teeth"). Twas easy to remove these nuts. Would brass loose their torque value as opposed to steel units? I use them on exhaust connections with great success!