MORE CALIFORNIA SMOG INFO

[thehelix112]

I was unsure whether to post this here, but after doing some reading about this, including Tony's post here: http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/35359-info-on-california-engine-swaps-bar/page__view__findpost__p__660517 I have a couple of questions.

 

I have read some of the text involved here and traced it back through the DMV codes, specifically regarding the exemption from certain smog test rules for so called 'collector cars': http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc4000_1.htm Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.

 

My analysis:

---------------

 

The benefit to this is exemption from subsection (f) of the Health and Safety Code 44012 (http://law.onecle.com/california/health/44012.html), which is for a functional or visual check of emission control devices: The catalytic converter is explicitly mentioned.

 

This does not affect the other requirements for smog testing listed on that page which include:

 

* emission control systems are correctly reducing emissions as per Section 44013 (a ) and (c ) (http://law.onecle.com/california/health/44013.html) which include:

* emission levels reasonably achievable for each class and model of vehicle allowing for installed emission control devices and age and mileage

* emission standards shall not be more stringent than those under which the motor vehicle's class and model-year were certified

* the vehicles emission control systems are working (exact working is: "preconditioned to ensure representative and

stabilized operation of the vehicle's emission control system.")

* the actual check for exhaust emissions

* a check for crankcase and evaporate fuel emissions. I take this to mean that the crankcase vents to the exhaust, and the fuel system leak-down test is still required to be passed.

* that the vehicle complies with emission standards for the vehicle's class and model-year

* on board diagnostic checks (not an issue for S30s).

* that the vehicle is safe to test. If this is an issue you've got bigger problems.

 

Issues:

----------------

 

I see several issues with this. The first is that the definition of collector motor vehicle does not appear to cover our cars: The DMV definitions is at http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d01/vc259.htm which basically just references http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc5051.htm for collector motor vehicles, which in turn references http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc5004.htm,'>http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc5004.htm, which indicates that this definition applies primarily to hot rods (lots of stuff about prior to 1922 and more than 16 cylinders (!)). The only clause that I can see that would apply is: "(3 ) A vehicle which was manufactured after 1922, is at least 25 years old, and is of historic interest." -- in Section 5004 (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d03/vc5004.htm). I am unsure who makes this determination. Maybe it only applies to 240z?

 

The second issue is a contradiction in the language. The exemption is for the visual and functional check of the emission control systems, but the car is still required to have working emission and control system. I don't understand how they think they are going to check the 'preconditioning' of the vehicle without a visual or functional check, and I am unsure which of the rules would apply, but I imagine as this subsection (b ) is not explicitly exempted, it still applies.

 

Value:

----------------

 

The value here is that the exemption from emission control systems function/visual check, and wording of the rules which repeatedly references the _vehicle's_ emission control system, I think may mean that as long as you still have a CAT, and a charcoal canister, and a PCV system that vents into the engine, it should not matter what engine is in the car.

 

Limitations:

----------------

 

I have not yet read any specific details about engine swaps in the DMV code, and I do not know how those rules may affect the above.

 

 

Has anyone else read these bits, or had any experience with collector smog exemptions?

 

Dave

Edited April 16, 2012 by thehelix112

[ctc]

After talking to the DMV a couple years back on the collector car designation, here is my take;

 

1) Point of the collector car exemption is for one off customs, vintage cars that parts no longer exsist and some kit cars. One of the requirements as was pointed out in one of the threads is that you have to have collector insurance and can only use the car for parades, club functions or to take it to the shop. Now again, are they going to catch you driving it to the mall? But you are still not legal, draw your own analogy to speeding.

 

2) "and is of historic interest" is determined by an admistrator of the DMV. You submit your case (still don't know how you do that) and this guy gives you a thumbs up or thumbs down. From the person on the phone at the DMV they don't consider anything mass produced as historically interesting. Also, modification that are not period correct are not historical at all. Double standard, yes, but historical is historical. I know of one vintage 4-door JDM Hakoska that is on historic plates. That car is one of about 4 in the country. Draw your own conclusions.

 

3) The real point of the collector requirement as stated in #1 is to allow people that want to have a restored, car of historical interest, but can't find that super rare non-exsistant emissions part. The Scarab's might fall under this kind of designation, or a S20 powered Fairlady Z 432.

 

It was a pain in the ass to get my car legal. I have a 1977 JDM Skyline, once I swaped in a 1982 L28ET from a 280zx, the ref was happy and I now have a BAR sticker that shows everything legal. No worries from CHP or the Smog boys.

Edited April 16, 2012 by ctc

[Tony D]

"(3 ) A vehicle which was manufactured after 1922, is at least 25 years old, and is of historic interest."

 

That section, along with a letter from the president of your local ZCCA Affiliated Z-Car Club will satisfy all the requirements. I write/have written several of these for club members in the past for other DMV related activities and for Insurance Claims. This trumps CTC's claim of DMV Administrator. Yes, they can determine what they want, but when a car club exists (and has since 1970 in the state) they become 'an authority' that some bureaucrat has a hard time denying. By the comments in point 2, most Lamborghini's are meeting the spec. There was at one time a production requirement or sales requirement of less than 25 in the state at time of original production. This makes most JDM RHD Vehicles automatic qualifiers (as the aforementioned Lambos and Ferraris!) Your case is stated on the DMV "Statement of Fact" sheet with the above letter from club member president and then you sit and wait. You wait a long time, but it goes through.

 

As CTC notes, some of this stuff gets insane. I had a pre 84 engine swap for an L24 that predated the engine serial numbers in the USA. So I had to make it legal to 73 specs in order to get it registered, even though I had all the required documentation for the legal pre may 84 predated engine swap. Because it was not a US-Spec Engine, I had to install all US Spec items to get it to work. But what I would like to see is no more 'moving goalpost'---stick to THIS:

 

"* that the vehicle complies with emission standards for the vehicle's class and model-year"

 

If they do that, it's a cakewalk!

[Gollum]

Or we could do what many states and industrialized countries do - make the sniffer the #1 authority on pass/fail then if deemed necessary have a side citation method for having systems that aren't operable, such as EGR or EVAP.

 

But you're right Tony. If we just had to have what ever emissions system THAT car came with and have it in working order, then the goalpost stays at a static location and waters wouldn't get so muddy.

[thehelix112]

Awesome. Thanks Tony.

 

Dave

[Tony D]

The Nations Oldest Z-Car Club, BTW is not ZCCA Affiliated though. But by default, being the oldest Z-Exclusive Club on the face of the Earth... Letters from their Directors Board tend to sway the Bureaucrats at DMV.

 

GROUP Z So Cal Z'ing since 1971

[ctc]

I was just quoting what was told to me on the phone call to DMV that i made. Thanks for the updated info Tony.

 

A question, would you help write or do you think that a club would support a letter claiming an RB swapped Z is historically interesring?

[Tony D]

The letters usually revolved around the historic significance of the Z-Car in general, and not on the modifications.

We have written several letters for club members when the need arose that they wanted the special plates on their cars.

It's a benefit of being in a club. Otherwise you have to do the BS all on your own and unless you self-proclaim yourself as some guru, the state generally ignores you.

 

Being an incorporated, registered, California Corporation (Non-Profit) somehow lends credence to the letters (the letterhead doesn't hurt, either!)

[Kali]

Awesome thanks for the useful info Tony.

[Perfect240z]

What a shame. I had no doubt that a pair of high cell cats and charcoal canister installed could get this engines tune within CARB specs and pass or surpass their test for nox etc. But from what you've stated they wouldn't waste their time to do so.

 

So I'd assume that the cars I've seen driving and tagged got through their initial inspections by having the stock power-plants in the engine bay and reversed this at a later date and just took their chances on a random roadside check, just to do the dance over again in 2 years;).......that's alot of work just to be an enthusiast.

 

I'd HAVE to have the L series motor in place since my initial registration will be inspected as an "Out of state" transferred vehicle. I cannot imagine them not opening the hood to verify under those circumstances.

 

It took me awhile to get my 70 Z registered only because I got it as a gift and the person before me never finished the registration correctly. The v needed to inspect the vin number in 3 different spots one of which will be be under the hood. If the DMV doesn't do it then you have to either call chp or your local pd to fill out your paperwork to take back. So since its an out of state vehicle your r33 is going to be a no no in all eyes since you might need to get it inspected since its out of state. But I will say the part of the paper work that got messed up on my car which I never filled out was a stupid l28 smog info sticker on the hood. Apparently a sticker was more important then the vin and the build date which was attach to the actual car. Good luck getting it registered, hope it goes smoother for you then me. After you done registering it you can put your r33 back in.

[Vintage-TechZ]

It took me awhile to get my 70 Z registered only because I got it as a gift and the person before me never finished the registration correctly. The v needed to inspect the vin number in 3 different spots one of which will be be under the hood. If the DMV doesn't do it then you have to either call chp or your local pd to fill out your paperwork to take back. So since its an out of state vehicle your r33 is going to be a no no in all eyes since you might need to get it inspected since its out of state. But I will say the part of the paper work that got messed up on my car which I never filled out was a stupid l28 smog info sticker on the hood. Apparently a sticker was more important then the vin and the build date which was attach to the actual car. Good luck getting it registered, hope it goes smoother for you then me. After you done registering it you can put your r33 back in.

 

Currently, I still have the L28et turbo engine in place. So it would seem that I'll have issues with bringing an out of state car to register from the git-go unless the inspectors are not concerned.....however I'm not one of those people who gets away with something like this EVER. SO until I can make a relationship with a local smog shop.-(some of you are already there)...I'm probably not going to be unable to do this without making the L28et look more like a 2.4 carbed engine....I guess ? Which with my luck won't cut it either.

[ctc]

If the L28et is still close to stock, have it registered as a swap. You will have to have it smogged for year and model of engine though. I would call and ask to speak with a BAR ref. Don't give you vin number but explain your situation and ask what to do. Your situation is much improved with a USDM engine and the fact the swap was done out of state. It may even be fine as is.

[thehelix112]

Sorry to hark on, but I am still curious if people have any input on my reading of the DMV code?

 

If you do get collector insurance, does that bring the requirements back to those for the vehicle? Or is that just wishful thinking? From the comments ctc and Tony are making it sounds like that might be the case.

 

Dave

[Tony D]

I reserve comment until I've tested it personally. Having the collector insurance on it exempts you from the sections, you just have to pass a sniffer as it was explained to me. No criteria for visual fail any longer. Just tailpipe.

A 'common sense smog check'...

[sileightygx]

Or we could do what many states and industrialized countries do - make the sniffer the #1 authority on pass/fail then if deemed necessary have a side citation method for having systems that aren't operable, such as EGR or EVAP.

But you're right Tony. If we just had to have what ever emissions system THAT car came with and have it in working order, then the goalpost stays at a static location and waters wouldn't get so muddy.

 

Would be nice if that was the case dangit. Many of my interests fall under this category, and have been tried on a friend's dyno smog for fun. Emissions pass, but fail for visual? Seriously...pollution is not the #1 concern here if the swap runs cleaner than the stock older setup. Rules are rules, you either follow them through proper channels or get creative and run the risk of bad times

[thehelix112]

Cool. I think this is definitely the way I am going to go with my conversion, so I'll write up notes in 5 years when I get to that point

 

Dave

[ctc]

For the question on what it exempts you from, I agree with Tony that it is a sniffer test only, compliant to the year of manufacture of your chassis.

 

But, read Section 5051 for definition of special interest vehicle. It says UNALTERED FROM THE MANUFACTURE's ORIGINAL SPECIFICATIONS, (sorry to yell) so no engine swaps!

 

VC Section 4000.1 Pollution Control Device Certificate or Statement

Pollution Control Device: Certificate or Statement

4000.1. a) Except as otherwise provided in subdivision b ) , c), or d) of this section, or subdivision b ) of Section 43654 of the Health and Safety Code, the department shall require upon initial registration, and upon transfer of ownership and registration, of any motor vehicle subject to Part 5 (commencing with Section 43000) of Division 26 of the Health and Safety Code, a valid certificate of compliance or a certificate of noncompliance, as appropriate, issued in accordance with Section 44015 of the Health and Safety Code.

 

There is some non-applicable info in sections b ) to f)

 

g) For purposes of subdivision a), any collector motor vehicle, as defined in Section 259, is exempt from those portions of the test required by subdivision (f) of Section 44012 of the Health and Safety Code, if the collector motor vehicle meets all of the following criteria:

 

(1) Submission of proof that the motor vehicle is insured as a collector motor vehicle, as shall be required by regulation of the bureau.

 

(2) The motor vehicle is at least 35 model-years old.

 

(3) The motor vehicle complies with the exhaust emissions standards for that motor vehicle’s class and model year as prescribed by the department, and the motor vehicle passes a functional inspection of the fuel cap and a visual inspection for liquid fuel leaks.

 

VC Section 259 Collector Motor Vehicles

Collector Motor Vehicles

259. "Collector motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle owned by a collector, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 5051, and the motor vehicle is used primarily in shows, parades, charitable functions, and historical exhibitions for display, maintenance, and preservation, and is not used primarily for transportation.

 

VC Section 5051 Definitions

Definitions

5051. As used in this article, unless the context otherwise requires:

 

a) “Collector†is the owner of one or more vehicles described in Section 5004 or of one or more special interest vehicles, as defined in this article, who collects, purchases, acquires, trades, or disposes of the vehicle, or parts thereof, for his or her own use, in order to preserve, restore, and maintain the vehicle for hobby or historical purposes.

 

b ) “Special interest vehicle†is a vehicle of an age that is unaltered from the manufacturer’s original specifications and, because of its significance, including, but not limited to, an out-of-production vehicle or a model of less than 2,000 sold in California in a model-year, is collected, preserved, restored, or maintained by a hobbyist as a leisure pursuit.

 

c ) “Parts car†is a motor vehicle that is owned by a collector to furnish parts for restoration or maintenance of a special interest vehicle or a vehicle described in Section 5004, thus enabling a collector to preserve, restore, and maintain a special interest vehicle or a vehicle described in Section 5004.

 

d) “Street rod vehicle†is a motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle, manufactured in, or prior to, 1948 that is individually modified in its body style or design, including through the use of nonoriginal or reproduction components, and may include additional modifications to other components, including, but not limited to, the engine, drivetrain, suspension, and brakes in a manner that does not adversely affect its safe performance as a motor vehicle or render it unlawful for highway use.

[thehelix112]

Right, that's why we want to be in the Collector vehicle definition (a), which was covered above (letter from ZCCA club).

 

The list of definitions are exclusive, not collective. Ie, a 'collector vehicle' is a different beast than a 'special interest vehicle'.

 

Dave

[ctc]

Right, that's why we want to be in the Collector vehicle definition (a), which was covered above (letter from ZCCA club).

 

The list of definitions are exclusive, not collective. Ie, a 'collector vehicle' is a different beast than a 'special interest vehicle'.

 

Dave

 

Dave, Section (a) of which vehicle code? VC 5004 (a)(3)? I see no definition for "Collector Vehicle" that does not lead you to section (b ) of VC 5051. VC 259 says what a collector vehicle is and points to VC 5051. VC 5051 defines a collector and then directs you to definition of special interest vehicle. How do you get around that?

 

Are you trying to imply that in VC 5004

 

(f) As used in this section, a vehicle is of historic interest if it is collected, restored, maintained, and operated by a collector or hobbyist principally for purposes of exhibition and historic vehicle club activities.

 

a collected, restored, maintained and operated 240Z with an RB or VK56 swap is of historic interest? What history are you trying to represent?

 

I appologize if this sounds like I am picking a fight, but if any motor is USDM why not do the swap legally and over the table. It sounds like a lot of people are trying to skirt the law and find some loop hole to justify their JDM motors. Now, you can always do things illegally, but I have my own reasons to not endorse that route.

 

I think alot of this comes down to intent. Are you really trying to get a one off, historic vehicle registered so you can take it to a club meet or are you trying to sneak the car you want to drive anytime through the system?

 

You should see what the Austrailian guys have to go through when they modify their cars. We just have to deal with smog.....

[thehelix112]

Ctc,

 

I don't think you're picking a fight at all. I should have been more clear in my original post. Section 5004(a)(3) is what I am shooting for, and was the topic of discussion above. The point being that it is vague enough to cover engines with swaps.

 

I failed to note 5004(f).

 

However, Tony seems to indicate that you can persuade someone of historic interestingness with an appropriate letter from an appropriate club. Additionally, a vehicle being 'restored' is still a pretty loose term. Also note, there is no explicit mention anywhere of the vehicle being in original condition or specifications. I may choose to restore my 280z with a VK56DE if I want. As long as someone official-sounding agrees that the _vehicle_ is historically interesting, and that what I have done counts as 'restoring', I think a case could be made in my favour.

 

I am not trying to skirt any law. I am unaware of what `over-the-table' implies in my particular case (VK56 into 280Z). I am merely trying to find a way to be able to drive my zed to the track and back, and to a zed show every once in a while.

 

Oh and being Australian, I have some concept of what is involved.

 

Dave

Edited April 18, 2012 by thehelix112