What sort of information do cam grinders ask for when you want a custom grind?

[Scott_M67]

Current price there is $6/each.

 

Dalta cams aswell as a few otheres can resurface your rocker arms. I think delta told me $3 or $6 each.

[josh817]

Personally IMHO I don't see anything special about that cam but all the specs aren't shown either. Let me say that typically a split duration cam like this 241/251 is used to make up for poor exhaust flow or use in a stock head. IMHO you would be farther ahead spending money on port work to achieve the best I/E ratio and utilize an exhaust system with as little back pressure as possible and run a single duration cam like a Racer Brown 325R with 254 degrees duration @.050". You could try calling Rebello Racing and see if they have a cam similar to it or at least get another opinion.

 

The best way to duplicate that cam is to shell out the ridiculous $1,100 and make master profiles from it.

The split duration thing was just some random card I found online, its not the one I want. I do think I should try Dave at Rebello though. One thing the two have in common is that they like to use the radical ramp up rate while letting the valve seat back down slowly. Not only does it aid the valve train stability in higher RPM's but the fast ramp up apparently encourages very quick acceleration (RPM wise). However, even if I go to Dave, my only fear is that because the opening and closing times, maybe the ramp rate, lobe centers, etc aren't exactly the same, I can't help but think if I'm missing out on something. If you review my N/A 400hp thread(http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php?/topic/90037-japanese-na-l6-400hp-how-they-do-it-pictures-ive-found-etc-not-56k-safe/page__p__854228__fromsearch__1&&do=findComment&comment=854228), you see that other Japanese camshafts such as the Wako 75S tend to be exclusive. When i talked to the distributor, he said he doesn't sell it to everyone, like you have to be worthy. You would think as a distributor, he would be more than happy to sell you a $1300 camshaft... yes, just the camshaft, nothing else. That's not the case though, which is why I am pursuing this. These dudes have proven over 350whp on almost all their cars with their setup 3.1L. I see Dave advertises like a 360hp 3.1L but I think that is at the crank and not the wheels (don't get me wrong though, his work is quite nice). Of course, they make their power by doing a mix of correct things that massage every last ounce of power out of the motor, so obviously just a cool camshaft won't do ****, however I'm trying to replicate them but with alternative products which is why I want the EXACT specs and not a different cam. I don't know if their products are on such a fine edge that changing something may screw up your chances of making that sort of power.

 

This is my long term project, as in over the next 4 years. Don't criticize, don't hate. I want to see where this goes. Oh and I also forgot. I do all my own work. I wouldn't be so interested in this stuff if I just handed Braap a handful of money, an arm, both my legs, and offered my sister to him to build me a monster head. Yes, because its expensive, but more so because I am a firm believer in being a proud owner of your own creation, not someone else's nice work that you bolted together (sorry if I short changed some of you engine builders, I know its more difficult than that). I will be porting my own head, having it welded up, reshaping chambers, accompanying it with 50mm Webers that we have, and considering doing my own header because I have a hunch on an idea but obviously I don't have the skills. The beauty of long term projects though is that you can slowly dump money away, and learn as you go. Not to mention its extremely helpful that my father knows a handful of people that do machine work, welding, etc. I don't do head/block milling or aluminum welding since we just have a basic MIG welder at the shop. The labor that I do actually pay for, is typically discounted at Dad's shop rate, or for instance the machine shop has known him for over 20 years so they just say "Hm... I'll do it for $30, is that cool?" and I'm like " Hell yah".

 

EDIT:

Sure, you can figure out that it is asymmetrical, but not 'how' asymmetrical it is.

 

For instance, not all 240° .500 lift cam lobes have the same shape, one could have a .200" lift duration of 190° and the other have a .200 lift duration of 230°, resulting in two radically different cams that have the same .05" duration.

Must not forget that on Kameari's website the Kameari 77i Super Drag camshaft says 77 denotes "durations" in degrees (http://www.kameariusa.com/L6_SuperDragCamshaft.php). Kameari also makes two lesser grinds which is the 75i and the 73i. I want to know what this number means. Also, I want to know what central angle is. These two figures could at least open the door for me to plug some numbers into a calculator.

Edited April 30, 2010 by josh817

[S30TRBO]

Everything as in whatever it takes to do the cam, or everything as in cam, springs, and retainers.

 

If its the second option, I am very pleased with that.

 

 

Cam, springs,retainers etc everything to make it work, all you need is Nissan rockers.

[Tony D]

So what you want to do is rip off Kameari? To get their knowledge and apply it to your needs without paying for their expertise? Pay the $1100 and shadow profile the cam then.

 

THAT is what a grinder will need to know to make that cam.

 

Very disapointing to see someone so blatant in their desire to rip off someones R&D... and that others are helping them do it.

 

Ron is very knowledgable. Read the Racer Brown articles on cams (especially about the L-Series Cams...) and realize that bore, stroke, lift, acceleration rate of the valve......

 

There is FAR more to what determines a cam's profile than simple numbers. If you want to rip off what they make since it's 'proven' then buy the thing.

 

Then, once it's in your hands, you can do whatever you choose. Shadow profile it, and give the CNC tapes or tracer profile to some cam grinder to make a knockoff replica for you. That is the only way you will get an exact replica of the Kameari Cam. Each grinder will have their own approach to how to grind for a particular purpose. If you give them lobe center, duration, and lift, along with opening an closing times....ha ha ha: GOOD LUCK! There's a BIT more to it that that. The ramps are what make a cam stable.

 

The power a BMW cam profile will make with the EXACT SAME duration, lift, and event timing is TOTALLY different than what a properly designed assymetric ramp Racer Brown, Sunbelt, or Iskendarian cam will make.

 

The industry started with BMW Grinds on L-Billets (Isky did this initially to get a product to sell...) Soon others copied their profiles. Some use those same profiles today. Isky doesn't. Last Monday, Frank280ZX and I spent an hour talking with Ron Iskendarian in his office discussing the L-Series Cam, and how Isky derived their grinds. How they were given no information from Nissan. How Electromotive and the other Privateer Teams were 'on their own' to get power grinds. And how they spent time shadow-profiling the cams, and reverse-engineering the assymetric ramps from the original cams in L's. While we were there, 'The Camfather' Himself walked through and said "Hi"... Later, Frank said "Was that who I think it was?" My buddy Larry, who was in pain and sitting in the truck outside said when we came out "Did you see! Ed was in there, he just came out the door and drove off!"

 

I guess when you have personal contact with people, the thought of ripping off their hard developmental and research work doesn't seem as appealing.

 

Save a few bucks. Loose you soul. For shame!

[woldson]

You never slow down, do you Tony? Outstanding point.

[letitsnow]

Must not forget that on Kameari's website the Kameari 77i Super Drag camshaft says 77 denotes "durations" in degrees (http://www.kameariusa.com/L6_SuperDragCamshaft.php). Kameari also makes two lesser grinds which is the 75i and the 73i. I want to know what this number means. Also, I want to know what central angle is. These two figures could at least open the door for me to plug some numbers into a calculator.

 

You still won't end up with a lobe identical to kameari's unless you physically copy their cam, or you convince them to give you a full cam-doctor report, which is doubtful. The best thing to do is talk to isky and explain what you want to do with the engine and get one of his cams, or shell out the money for the real deal.

 

I suppose you could try to develop your own lobe, but that's one of those 'if you have to ask' type things.

[josh817]

You still won't end up with a lobe identical to kameari's unless you physically copy their cam, or you convince them to give you a full cam-doctor report, which is doubtful. The best thing to do is talk to isky and explain what you want to do with the engine and get one of his cams, or shell out the money for the real deal.

 

I suppose you could try to develop your own lobe, but that's one of those 'if you have to ask' type things.

Yah I've pretty much given up on the whole idea. I started with the thought of copying the grind if I had enough information. As things looked more grim, it became more of a mission to try and "decode" the cam. I want to learn how these ramp rates interact with an L engine and then what sort of fine tuning is involved. It appears the L engine is very responsive to overlap and duration changes. It can spit out buttloads of power, or you can over due it and make like... 7.

 

The only way I can respond to Tony is if the few distributors of these cams don't want to sell to certain people, then I will go out and do what I need to do, to get the grind I want. As discussed in the 400hp thread, I was told "it won't work for your application" and then emails stopped flowing. Despite the fact that his website says he will be glad to help you either find a cam that will work for you or tell you the weak link in your setup so you can run the machoman cam, but he never did. If a dealer wants to be a jerk and as I said in other posts "secretive" thats fine, it fuels my desire for a "stick it to the man" situation where I have my own cam ground, save my money, and stick my tongue out at you.

 

I can't say that I honestly had no problem spending $1300 on a camshaft (Wako75s is the $1300 cam apparently is more radical then the Kameari 77i), however, being that this is a long term project I don't think that it would be such a big deal when its over a 4 year time span. The ultimate would be the Wako 75s I suppose, for what reason I do not know, which makes the argument invalid. I do know however after dealing with the Wako distributor, I don't want to have any part of it.

 

Yes Tony, after meeting someone personally and seeing a face to the name and becoming a type of relationship that's not just talking on a need to know basis, you don't really want to screw the person over. However, I'm in Texas, I'm not going to meet up with someone face to face unless they're around here. The distributor I talked with was by email, and wasn't too great. Therefore, I don't have any sort of ties like that. As you can see, I don't have a particularly good view of the Japanese scene concerning S30's. I recognize they have mastered the work, they're obviously doing something right, etc. I AM planning on buying their chain tensioner system, valve seats, etc., unless I find my own replacement.

 

We of all people, the HybridZ community should know that there are ideas which are genuinely original, maybe say like Bryan's cam chain setup and his valve cover for his DOHC head, and then there are idea's that are based off of other ideas, like what I'm trying to do here. As a young person, limited money (in the sense of developing your own piece of work), that doesn't have personal access to to a full machine shop or anything, I am in a position to look at other peoples prized possessions and to try and make my own version of it. Don't poop on my parade. This is how I get things done. I am doing it on a personal basis, not with the intention to sell to everyone else for a profit. That's why I took the liberty to mark out all the stuff on the cam card I posted, even if its worthless information or its something anyone can access (which it is). Its also why if I did get a grind that worked for me, I wouldn't start making it for other people profit or not.

 

If we all read the book The Unfair Advantage we can see, coming up with original ideas and coming up with modified versions of someone elses idea, within the confines of the rule book, wins the race. The only rule book I'm following are copyright laws and of course like I said, this has slowly turned from making an exact copy to understanding the logic behind their R&D and using it for my gain. Yes, I have a long way to go, but don't belittle and discredit me for that. You have to start somewhere. Maybe this thread didn't start off the way the way I planned for it, but then again, my very first post on this website was "whats the difference between these two blocks". Obviously I still make some vital mistakes.

 

Also I would like to mention in #22 I clearly said that I don't take pride in bolting someones work onto my motor and dancing around going woohoo look what I did. It would be more like, woohoo look what Paul did, I bolted it down and it works great. Not my cup of tea, but is it wrong for me to read through Paul's posts on monster heads and what he does or doesn't do to get the best flow numbers, so I can try out the technique myself? Did I lose all my dignity for reading stuff that has been published on the internet, knowing it is open to any source? I didn't do any sort of hacking or whatever, the information I have is out there and its really obvious when it can be found with... Google. I think the answer to the rhetorical question is no, its not morally wrong or irresponsible. If it were, then the responsibility to keep your businesses secrets confidential lies with the person who posted the information in the first place. If Paul didn't want me going out with a die grinder, screwing up some heads but doing something right on like the 5th head to where I have a port that flows well, then it would be on his part to not post his secrets. I'm already anticipating a response like "That's not the same thing as what you're doing", I know its not. I understand the stuff that Paul posted isn't necessarily top secret, its the concept that I am trying to show. In my big folder of Japanese stuff, which I posted a lot of it in the 400hp thread, I have pictures of the chain tensioner, ports, valves, cams, guides, you name it, along with measurements and translated excerpts. Its not wrong for me to go out and try to duplicate it in an effort to have the same product which would be 350hp at the wheels.

 

I honestly don't care if it took them 5 years of R&D or 35 years of R&D, if you post pictures or measurements on the internet, in a place that doesn't require any sort of log in, you have presumably released your work to the public. People like me will find it, try to use the specs to figure out what exactly we aren't understanding when it comes to L-engine power making, and then making our own version to either use personally or sell at a rate that isn't absurd (truth be told, why sell it at a high rate when you don't have as much R&D involved as the original source). I have no intention of selling stuff, so I'm not even under that category.

 

I want to make note that Kameari's high price along with Wako's are not unfairly high like gas prices are sometimes. As Tony said, they have a ton of work put into their product, and also as Tony said in a different thread, when they made an updated version of the chain tensioner, they sent one to him free of charge without him even asking. Service is good.

 

I think the situation would be exponentially worse if I bought the actual Kameari or Wako cam and then CNC copied it, for more than personal use. I think it would be extremely wrong if I had Paul port a head for me, and I had a CNC copy made. Not to mention the whole pride thing that I wouldn't be getting. I don't think its wrong at all for me to get ideas, pictures, measurements, whatever, and collaborate with others whether it be HybridZ'ers or Ron at Isky to "decode", as I call it, and then say "hey, apparently this lobe center works with something around this sort of duration and this lift blah blah blah" and maybe Ron says "well for your application you may want to keep all things equal, except for the duration blah blah blah". I don't have an engine dyno, I don't have 35 years of knowledge, I don't have customer testimonies, to aid my efforts in the next 4 years. What I have is the internet to look up research done by others, and a few books on the shelf, to help me develop something that I want.

 

I'm not doing anything wrong here, nor is anyone else. If people here say you need ramp rates, fine, I'll try my best to do some research on ramp rates. Is there something wrong with me making a conglomerate of specs from say Isky and Kameari and Wako for to form one cam? Hell no. To answer the question why don't you just call and ask? Its because I don't like talking directly like that. If Tony were to come up to me and say what he did, I'd be like uhhhhhhhh, maybe get a few sentences out, but not all of this. It takes my brain some processing time to figure out what I want to say. Even with a list of questions, I frequently find myself hanging up and then going I now have ten more things to ask! I'm not into the business of wearing out my welcome, or using up peoples time when they have a job to conduct. All I want to do is call Ron up or whoever, have my measurements ready to go, rattle off some specs, get an ok from him, pay for it, wait for a cam to show up on my door step.

 

Honest to god truth, I will probably break down and just buy a grind from Isky or from Rebello (not that there is anything wrong with their stuff, I was just really hoping for my own grind) because I have a feeling help on this board is going to slant off to a stand still which means this effort has pretty much ended.

 

I can't wait to hit the post button and see how long this damn post is.

Edited May 3, 2010 by josh817

[woldson]

Maybe you can start a thread about how a cams work in particular setups and why? Not just what would be best under "X" setup, but Why? Anyone can buy a cam, if you do significant research and understand why you bought the cam you have it will help personalize it. Thier is no problem adding to your personal project, with someone else hard work and intellect. I mean you do use others advice don't you? Same thing.

 

Funny thing is, if your in a company that produces a wiget and that wiget sells well (better than yours), you can do one of two things:

 

 

1 Find out why the customer likes his wiget and see if you can incorporate that into yours, or even make it better.

 

2 Copy, (fraud), but change it just a touch in order not to violate patent laws.

 

You may end up with the same wigit ethier way, however, one is an honest approach, one is unethical, however legal.

 

 

There is a thrid, buy out his company, this one is perfectly legal and ethical, however, you do to much of that and you can get into anti-trust issues......

 

If some are willing to partake in the conversation get ready to learn. Probably be over my head.

[josh817]

Maybe you can start a thread about how a cams work in particular setups and why? Not just what would be best under "X" setup, but Why? Anyone can buy a cam, if you do significant research and understand why you bought the cam you have it will help personalize it. Thier is no problem adding to your personal project, with someone else hard work and intellect. I mean you do use others advice don't you? Same thing.

 

Funny thing is, if your in a company that produces a wiget and that wiget sells well (better than yours), you can do one of two things:

 

 

1 Find out why the customer likes his wiget and see if you can incorporate that into yours, or even make it better.

 

2 Copy, (fraud), but change it just a touch in order not to violate patent laws.

 

You may end up with the same wigit ethier way, however, one is an honest approach, one is unethical, however legal.

 

 

There is a thrid, buy out his company, this one is perfectly legal and ethical, however, you do to much of that and you can get into anti-trust issues......

 

If some are willing to partake in the conversation get ready to learn. Probably be over my head.

I'll admit the thread started kind of rotten however like I said before it slowly transformed into more-so of learning whats so special about its dimensions. However, even from post one, questions like what is central angle, can a cam be ground down significantly, etc. were being asked. The desire to learn more about the cam was prevalent. The essential roots of the thread were based on answering these unknowns, of course at first fueled by a rotten intention but once realized it isn't going to happen the rotten part was gone.

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter now, lets just let this thread scroll its way down or get locked. Start another one with a different tittle if need be but probably not. I think I'll be keeping my stuff to myself, ethical or not.

[Tony D]

There are no new ideas, just forgetful people with insufficient grasp of the technical realm. Once you learn that, you start to respect the people who know how to derive action and results from the existing knowledge base. It's easy as someone young to say you created something 'new'... just don't be upset when the house of cards you built for yourself falls as you realize it's just an adaptation of something used decades ago.

 

"I honestly don't care if it took them 5 years of R&D or 35 years of R&D, if you post pictures or measurements on the internet, in a place that doesn't require any sort of log in, you have presumably released your work to the public. People like me will find it, try to use the specs to figure out what exactly we aren't understanding when it comes to L-engine power making, and then making our own version to either use personally or sell at a rate that isn't absurd (truth be told, why sell it at a high rate when you don't have as much R&D involved as the original source). I have no intention of selling stuff, so I'm not even under that category. "

 

If you think what they posted tells you anything or is somehow factual you also believe the Electramotive 280ZXT had 580HP at 21.6 psig of boost at 7500 rpms as well...

 

Both the USA and Russia got working V2 Rockets at the end of WWII. The USA decided to get the scientists, the Russians the Technicians. The Americans never got a V2 to work. Dismal failure, they started from scratch. The Russians got the V2 flying, and sold it everywhere. Today it's 'The Scud', or whatever those nutty North Koreans Call It.

 

You can give someone a working model, and all the knowledge in the world....and it won't work.

 

Just keep that in mind if you think you will make a cookie cutter engine copied from other's R&D simply by making 'all the right numbers and using all the right parts'...

 

Wonderful story out of Australia where, during the 70's teams were breaking into other team's shops to steal radiators because they were SURE they had done something because their cars never overheated at Bathurst. Or the transmissions, because they never broke. Some guys lightened the weights on the dyno so they looked like they consistently made more HP...and when they consistenly ran faster that was what everybody thought since the Dyno Guys talked...

 

Has anybody even looked at the calibration sheets for the dyno? Make sure what you're chasing is reality.

 

Truth be told, this phrase sickens me: "truth be told, why sell it at a high rate when you don't have as much R&D involved as the original source"

 

Absolutely Sickening. All I can say is, I hope wherever you are, secure in your old age, all you income stream is suddenly stripped away as someone as unethical as you does to you what you propose to do to others.

 

"Do unto others, then split" seems to be the axiom of today. How sad.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Tony D

[josh817]

There are no new ideas, just forgetful people with insufficient grasp of the technical realm. Once you learn that, you start to respect the people who know how to derive action and results from the existing knowledge base. It's easy as someone young to say you created something 'new'... just don't be upset when the house of cards you built for yourself falls as you realize it's just an adaptation of something used decades ago.

That is very true. What was it that I heard a long time ago? There hasn't been an original idea/invention in like the past century or something. I forget, I just know there is book on either my bookshelf or my dads that discuss how like the atomic bomb is tied to the plow, from what I remember. That's not the basis of this argument, you know that.

If you think what they posted tells you anything or is somehow factual you also believe the Electramotive 280ZXT had 580HP at 21.6 psig of boost at 7500 rpms as well...

If you're trying to say they may just be feeding me a load of crap, this could be true. However, since the information I jotted down has been collective from many different independent sources, unless they have some sort of insider group saying "lets ALL post misleading information", the likelihood of this happening is slim. Not to mention, these business aren't dumb. Both of us know that. They obviously hold back information for their sake. I kind of thought that point was made clear when I said the information can be accessed by any Joe Shmoe. The source I had gotten information from was installation manuals that gave reference figures, so it wasn't directly posted on some blog, which was why I thought maybe I had enough to work all the typical numbers out.

Has anybody even looked at the calibration sheets for the dyno? Make sure what you're chasing is reality.

Good point but we both know that here in states most guys looking for some L engine power on the strip turn to a turbo because its more cost effective. My point is that calibration of the machine or not, who cares about the numbers, as long as it performs as good as it would over in Japan. Hell, for a lot of us who are at around sea level, it may even be easier to make the power seeing that these goes in the motherland look like they're up in the mountains/hills of Japan. Have to tune accordingly. One thing to note though is that its easy to get confused with high gearing, and lots of power, unless you listen to the shifting and the ratios they run. From what I read there were a lot of 4.6's - 4.8's - and a 5-something for rear end ratios. Being that a lot of people are using turbo setups over here, I tend to look over at the Japanese who are doing their thing on the N/A stuff. Now don't come back saying that there are many people here in the states and in Europe making lots-o-power from their N/A setup. I understand. I had just gone over to Japanese blogs and sites first. It was my first stepping stone.

Truth be told, this phrase sickens me: "truth be told, why sell it at a high rate when you don't have as much R&D involved as the original source"

 

Absolutely Sickening. All I can say is, I hope wherever you are, secure in your old age, all you income stream is suddenly stripped away as someone as unethical as you does to you what you propose to do to others.

Lol Tony, that's why I said truth be told, I think the same thing, its rotten. Thought that was made clear after I said A: I wasn't trying to sell anything B: I think making master copies of the actual thing isn't legitimate and C: I wouldn't purchase the cam, make a shadow profile, and then sell it for my benefit or sell it at all for that matter, all for the same ethical reasoning. There are some things that will indeed just sicken you but lets face it... IF any of us were to do something like that. Would you honestly try to go about selling it at $1300. HONESTLY? Obviously if you're entering into the business with the preconceived thought of stealing somebodies work, do you think you would really set the price way high? You wouldn't be paying any royalties, because as far as the original owner is concerned, they don't know you're making copies and selling it. Lets get real here. Would you really be concerned about sending them an envelope with money saying "Hey I stole your design, I'm splitting the profits. Thanks"? The answer is no, so there is no reason to sell high unless you were wanting to make one hell of a profit. IF you were to go out and copy someone elses design, you OBVIOUSLY wouldn't want to sell high, because you want higher sales then the original business. Its just basic understanding. Kameari makes their cam and sells for $1100, Joe Shmoe makes the same thing (because its a copy!) for $250 on ebay. As long as Joe Shmoe sells good quality stuff like Kameari, I think he will be having more sales. I think it was just a simple misunderstanding on your part there, I know what you mean. I just don't like seeing people act all shocked at certain things others say. Just have to put a little thought into and then we see that its really quite simple etiquette. Its actually one of my pet peeves.

 

Can we be done with this now?

Edited May 4, 2010 by josh817

[Tony D]

"IF any of us were to do something like that. Would you honestly try to go about selling it at $1300. HONESTLY? Obviously if you're entering into the business with the preconceived thought of stealing somebodies work, do you think you would really set the price way high?"

 

Honestly, that's why I don't sell parts or deal in the commercial side of the business in the USA.

I do in Europe and Japan, where respect and support are the watchwords. There are few bottom feeders and leeches left in those places simply because the only people who can afford the cars are those who respect the time and dedication it takes to produce parts of high quality.

 

Chinese Rip-Off stuff is popular with Americans stationed in Japan. But not with Japanese. Similarly in Europe.

 

Show me a Joe Schmoe selling Kameari Quality parts before you start using him as an example.

 

When's the last time you priced a full-on Race Head? Think the $300 one you get will perform at the same level as the $3000 one?

 

Sure, a camshaft is a lump of iron. There can't be much to grinding one. There are plenty of cam grinders out there, too. El Inca Racing Cams at the old PCH and Alameda intersection would do one heluva rip-off grind of the original Isky BMW Profile for only $25. Lots of street guys went there for a $25 grind. Beat paying $100 for Isky's stuff. Then again, Isky didn't offer it any more. He developed another profile. If you profile a lot of the cams on the American L Engine Market, you will see many that are simply mirrored copies of Isky's original BMW Regrind.

 

And this goes back to the V2 example. There are plenty of people who can make something look like it. It may have all the 'specifications' spot on, but the two cams will perform RADICALLY different when evaluated.

 

If you don't have a brain in your head, and knock off a copy, don't be surprised when it doesn't work they way you thought it would. The best engineers in Germany for the life of them couldn't figure out why their V2 wouldn't fly! NEVER flew!

 

What you fail to understand about the market is volume. You ASSUME there is a market for a cam at $250. Why would I buy an E-Bay CWC Core for $250 when I can get a properly designed, properly ENGINEERED cam for my specific application for less than HALF that from Isky?

 

Now, if you're saying you can undercut a Cored $105 out the door price for something that works just as well, I might be interested. For $50 I might give up on ElInca for the Lemons cars... For them A BMW grind from 1970 is fine. For real competition I'll stick with Isky. Perhaps one of the reasons Kameari's distributor won't sell to you is you keep mentioning road-racing, and that is not what that cam is really meant to do. Isky wouldn't sell you one either...

 

But back to volume. Perhaps the reason Kameari can still do R&D on these cams is because they price their parts to support the market they are in---pricing to not leave money on the table is a basic tenet of setting up a soul-less MBA in business. You don't work on a volume model when there isn't any volume to be had.

 

You better spend a bit more time in business school. You could sell Yugos for dirt cheap, it doesn't mean people will buy them in enough numbers to support an expansion into this country. Especially after word gets around about how 'well' they work!

 

I'm not at all getting what your shocked comment is about. I'm not shocked, I'm sickened. That someone even puts the idea into print for others to consider is distasteful. I'll support my vendors. The people that have spent years and in some cases decades refining a product to work just perfectly. You put more emphasis on saving a few paltry dollars? Money? You would undercut and copy (EVEN FOR PERSONAL USE) at a lower cost simply to save some money, while at the same timedepriving the vendor of the reward of his years of work?

 

You know, we used to give seminars for our customers on how to rebuild turbos. Sales guys thought it was a stupid idea because they thought that we would loose sales. But the smart people knew it was just the opposite: by educating the customer they would soon realize they don't have the facilities to do it properly and would come to us instead. Many Japanese companies still operate that way today.

 

You can persist in your fantasy, but hopefully you will soon come to the realization that you will grind what you think is the same thing....and you will be sorely disapointed!

 

Oh, and BTW, you might want to do some basic calculations on the bone-stock aerodynamics of an S30, then realize a couple of guys from somewhere showed up at Bonneville in a bone stock (F/GT) 240Z and went 163+mph. Calculate the horsepower required to do that before you poo-pooh American Engineering, and realize their cam isn't from Japan...

[josh817]

Tony the only thing I can say is it appears you blatantly ignored what I have posted. Everything I said, you have twisted and contorted. Not only have you ignored that my pricing comment was clearly an example (thus the use of Joe Shmoe), and how I said I'm not looking for an exact copy anymore (said that multiple times). Dare I even ask if you read through the entire thread before coming in on the high horse ready to write citations to everyone who participated? I knew you weren't going to directly answer the question but rather suavely prance around it.

 

My pricing comment, was an example. I haven't a clue what a cam would sell for. I don't participate and group buys where I have like 20 products manufactured and pray that I have enough customers to make a profit. The point I was trying to make is sell your cam for any price

 

I can say however that the basic tenet of business is if you lower the price enough, people won't give a damn about the quality. If you want to argue, then look at Hyundai and Kia. People were buying their cars because they were so cheap, despite the fact that they may only last 2 years. Those sales allowed them to ramp up the quality, and the price, to a point where they actually compete with the Japanese market.

 

I don't know as much as you do about these distributors however I think its fair to say $1300 doesn't pay for material costs, or labor. You said yourself it pays for R&D. Now when I say shocked, you KNOW I meant that I was surprised to see such a response. You're a smart man, don't play the "I don't know what you mean" card. It shouldn't be some extreme taboo for me to write about the natural attraction towards lower prices. If we apply what Hyundai and Kia did, it makes sense to sell low. We already understand it isn't ethical. I already agreed with you on that part. You KNOW I don't have any intention to sell for a profit. Drop the argument.

 

Sure its sickening but lets get it straight. The hard work of these guys must be kept secret. IF, and YES I SAID IF (I capitalize so you don't skip over that part) they were to post all the specifications need to do a regrind, on the internet. That is THEIR fault for releasing secrets. Let me tell you a little story. My dad was build a TR3 race car for a guy and he was doing some tick suspension, putting TR6 or GT6 (I don't know) suspension onto a TR3. One of his customers took pictures of the suspension without Dad knowing. Eventually he was receiving emails like "hey great job on the TR3 suspension" "Cool, what did you do there" and he's thinking to himself "how do all these people know about this". When he found out a certain someone took pictures, and then posted them online, there were a few words being shared. Was it ethically wrong for these people to be curious about this suspension and asking question on how they can do it themselves? NO, there isn't anything wrong, it is the fault of the person posting the "secrets" (lets just call it that) online. If by chance Kameari posted enough information to duplicate the work, you bet yourself people would be jumping on it, and it isn't a matter of who is a man with a soul or who is morally correct, or is it in fact very sickening, because its not. What I think would be sickening is such a bright engineers having their work unintentionally spread onto blogs by others. Original source of the problem? Not me, tell it to the guy who posted the information.

 

As far as having meetings for customers and all that jive. I already know this. My father does the same thing. Trust me, I know because I had to play "run the monster over" on a forklift with my little brother to keep him from interrupting Dad. Don't talk down to me. I already asked you to please don't do that, yet you persist. I'm sorry, you high horse won't trample over me. I'm new to these motors compared to a lot of people here, but that doesn't mean I don't know anything. While we're on that note, I never said anything about Isky products sucking. I don't have a problem with American products. I invite you to quote me on where I said I did. I believe you won't find anything (other then maybe like Schneider, but even that is a long stretch) in this thread or my 400HP thread. I believe I was caught saying:

Strictly speaking on a Japanese grounds, I believe this thread was created to be. I don't mention Isky because in the stuff I found, Isky wasn't in there. I'm not going to make any conclusions on why or which is better, I'm just saying Isky isn't in there. The only thing I found from Isky were springs and a maybe retainers I think on one guys blog.

As seen here, I'm not making ANY conclusions about any other cams simply because I don't know how they perform. On this thread, I was simply saying I was scared to go with any other grind, in case if Kameari knows something that Ron doesn't, I don't know who is excelling more. I never said Isky doesn't make good stuff and actually I think you can say something more along the lines of me being very modest concerning who makes better cams, as I am not jumping to conclusions. Don't put words in my mouth and then to kick me while I'm down, add in some sarcasm. Not to mention in doesn't really help your case while, being respectful and wise.

By the way, please don't spill the rage over into that thread. It belongs here, so when this gets locked, the other thread will still be intact.

 

If the distributor (who remains nameless because I'm not here to bash him) had just said he would be happy to sell to me rather then saying "I don't sell to everyone" like there is some sort of Samurai legend that may be put to shame if its not used properly, then efforts to try and make my own cam wouldn't be occurring. The issue isn't me trying to save a few bucks. When you say just buy the real deal I go "ok, let me get right on that." hey guess what, they won't sell to anyone. Weird. I can't win for losing, if I was determined to get THAT cam, not wanting to go to Isky or Rebello, or whoever. That's not the case, I'll go to Isky, no problem. If only I could get my hands on one of those cams legitimately and make a copy for personal use, but damnit I can't even get the opportunity to purchase one. So you tell me, by getting denied service, they let down a customer (by the way, this isn't Kameari its Watanabe-Wako, I was using the Kameari grind to decode because I readily had information, then use that knowledge to decode the Wako cam), so is it not legitimate for me to go out and make my own copy? Am I really "stealing" from these guys, when they wouldn't sell to me in the first place? I think they're letting themselves down. If I only made several hundred sales (if that) per year, I'd be jumping at the potential customer. But yah, you're right Tony, here in America we don't have respectful legitimate people willing to pay the money, we would put all that R&D to shame, which is a good reason to deny certain people service even if they have $1300 cash to literally pay for it right there on the spot.

 

When you say "because the only people who can afford the cars are those who respect the time and dedication it takes to produce parts of high quality", don't ever tell me or anyone else that we can't participate in HybridZ notions because we don't have the money to invest in ethically correct high end parts. Something like that I find sickening, acting like because you have the wallet to purchase products, makes you higher than others. Comments like that bring bigger problems then me alone; it brings every budget Z'er who has the "ass hair" as Dad would call it,stepping up to what you, the Wiki, says. You know that when intuitive minds join up, great things can be achieved. I don't have the money to pay Paul or Bryan or Dave, whoever, to do engine work for me, call me poor. If I did have the money, I'm here to say I probably wouldn't spend it on labor like that, because I like learning how to do that sort of stuff, and I really enjoy doing it myself. This doesn't mean that I don't respect any of them though just because I can't afford to pay them to do it, so I do it myself. Sorry to be such a buzz kill.

 

I also don't appreciate you calling my efforts a fantasy. I'm going to persist and get this long term motor build project complete with or without your support. I only ask that if you don't support it, don't come galloping in with criticism that isn't constructive.

 

Anyway, I'm done doing my business in the bathroom and strange enough, I'm done typing too! I don't know if I unintentionally planned that though.

[woldson]

Tony the only thing I can say is it appears you blatantly ignored what I have posted.

 

Not true Josh.

 

He is getting at a core thinking. He sees it. It goes deeper than details you are pointing out.

 

Now if you re read all that the thread was about with an open mind you may find the basic "core" he is talking too.

 

That is not easy for anyone (changing deep seated belief that "define" us), however, he seems to find you note-worthy enough to try to help.

 

I may be wrong, but I think he likes you.

 

Use the force Luke.......

[woldson]

I got an idea, spend some time cogitating on this and start over.

 

There has been enough attention to this that perhaps in a couple of weeks or months, you may get some real jems on a good thread! It's going to be up to you, keep up the good work!

 

 

On a side note, although, most things are only inproved on, great leaps are usually accomplished by re-inventing the wheel. Who said it can't be done better! There is no problem respecting conventional wisdom, however, it is ok to question it.

 

 

In the end though, we can only "make", not create. (in its highest form) I.E. I can make things out of stuff, I can not make something out of nothing.

[josh817]

I suppose. I felt irritated at the time. Didn't really feel like showing any concerns for being moderate or modest. Now that I'm super tired and drained from school at the moment, I see slightly more clear than I would have if I were enraged. I reread through everything, saw some grammatical errors and such, but I still back what I said (maybe not in such harsh words, but its what was going through my head, its diarrhea... of the fingers). I won't be hitting the edit button, after all, I spent my precious time with John, the toilet not JohnC, to type a 12 chapter book between Tony and I. Sheesh. It was some venting but it doesn't belong here, I don't feel.

 

I'm seriously just waiting for moderators to come around on the board and see the flare up. It'd be funny if they knew about it, and just watched from a far, sort of like the Roman Colosseum.

 

Totally broke all the written rules in this thread:

Edited May 5, 2010 by josh817

[Tony D]

Apparently Woldson gets it, unfortunately only age and experience will teach what I'm trying to tell, and then, only if someone is willing to keep their mind open to the possibility. Nobody is as blind as someone who refuses to look.

 

I can rationalize all day long on why societal taboos against pederasty should not interfere with my purely self-interested self-gratification with an 8 year old child as well.

 

Or my sister and cousin.

 

Or of buggery of a Sheep.

 

It doesn't make it right.

 

 

(Sheep commment only applicable outside NZ, AU and other Commonwealth nations not enlightend to the extent they are down-under.)

Edited May 5, 2010 by Tony D

[johnc]

However, since the information I jotted down has been collective from many different independent sources, unless they have some sort of insider group saying "lets ALL post misleading information", the likelihood of this happening is slim.

 

Be really, really careful with that. The Internet is a huge echo chamber and one post can spread around and appear to be from many independent sources. I am a perfect example where I posted a specific Nissan 5th gearset to make a poor man's close ratio transmission. The information I had was wrong and I've correct my original posts. Unfortunately many others (who appear authoritative) have posted that information as true and sometimes claiming it as their own. Its still out there, as wrong as when I originally posted it, but every year a couple folks make the mistake.

[TimZ]

First off - I'm completely with Tony on this subject, and the only reason I posted to this thread at all was to try to point out that the original poster's basic plan wasn't going to give him what he thought he was going to get and hopefully discourage him from going down that path (which appears to have been successful, btw, along with the added dis-encouragement from others ). I didn't really want to even go into trying to explain what would need to be done to succeed in ripping off Kamerari's profile (or anybody else's for that matter).

 

When's the last time you priced a full-on Race Head? Think the $300 one you get will perform at the same level as the $3000 one?

 

<snip>

 

Now, if you're saying you can undercut a Cored $105 out the door price for something that works just as well, I might be interested. For $50 I might give up on ElInca for the Lemons cars... For them A BMW grind from 1970 is fine. For real competition I'll stick with Isky. Perhaps one of the reasons Kameari's distributor won't sell to you is you keep mentioning road-racing, and that is not what that cam is really meant to do. Isky wouldn't sell you one either...

 

 

This speaks to the other thing that I wanted to mention - I personally think that the fact that the vendor won't sell certain cams to "just anybody" is not at all a bad reflection on them. When you get into some of the more "extreme" profiles you really need to understand how everything in the valve train works together, how to make sure that your head is compatible, and understand how to make it compatible if it isn't already. If you are expecting to just buy a "kit" that bolts in, then you don't know enough to buy certain cams. On a 30-something year old head with completely unknown history there is no way in hell that you can put together a kit that will a guarantee a trouble free install.

 

For instance - let's say you want a .560" lift profile. That can be done, but not with stock valve guides and stem seals. Who do you think is going to get a bad rap when you install their cam and start destroying you valve stem seals because you didn't realize that you need proper clearance to the seal at max lift? In general I think it's good practice to limit your exposure with such products to people who can demonstrate that they understand what it will take to make it work properly. If all you do is whine about why they are being so arrogant, then you probably aren't that guy.

 

Oh, and BTW, you might want to do some basic calculations on the bone-stock aerodynamics of an S30, then realize a couple of guys from somewhere showed up at Bonneville in a bone stock (F/GT) 240Z and went 163+mph. Calculate the horsepower required to do that before you poo-pooh American Engineering, and realize their cam isn't from Japan...

 

Agreed - I've also had very good luck with Isky, and my current cam is a custom grind from Elgin, another American cam vendor.

Edited May 6, 2010 by TimZ

[Tony D]

I recently related a story about my first exposure to Gene Berg Enterprises for a technical call. I got the man himself, the Guru, Gene Berg. When I asked about setting up ratio rocker arms his first response was 'Invoice Number'...

 

I didn't have one, because I was on a fishing expedition for free knowledge and information. I said I bought the parts secondhand from someone and didn't have an invoice.

 

'Sorry, without an invoice number the best I can do for you is recommend you buy our series of technical articles for $5 and figure it out on your own, we reserve our technical advice for our customers.' (This would be the pre-internet post equivalent of 'SEARCH THE ARCHIVES' or 'READ THE FAQ!'...)

 

Thought he was an arrogant old man as well. But I bought his technical articles, and indeed it told me everything I needed to know about setting them up. It also gave me the story about how other companies in SoCal were continually ripping off their designs and having them made as cheap knock offs in Taiwan. And how some actually mimeographed Berg Instructions (with their logos covered) and included them in the rip-off parts. He also in the technical articles differentiations in quality and WHY you should buy his parts---explaining their quality checks and how they design, select, and procure parts.

 

Rockers from Berg were $105. Rockers from SCS were $39.

 

So I bought the SCS rockers, and using the Berg technical articles installed them perfectly, making sure to note all the pitfalls GEne spelled out quite clearly in his great technical sheets.

 

In less than 10,000 miles, the SCS rockers lost a swivel foot, and trashed my #2 intake valve. Pull the head, repair valve and buy a set of Berg Rockers.

 

65,000 miles later, they still function flawlessly.

 

Oh, and SCS? They were 'big'. A 'superstore' with a lot of volume. They are also bankrupt and long out of business, with a Mexican Cantina Girly Dance Parlor in their old building. Same for good old Johnnies Speed and Chrome. BIG volume seller, and bankrupt.

 

Berg? Gene passed away years ago, the counter is still manned by his trusty #2 man like it always was, and his wife Dee is still present. And they still sell the best damn VW performance parts in the business. They are not the 'least expensive' up front, but when you realize Berg Component Engines routinely run 4-5X the stock HP and run for 150,000+ miles on an engine that rarely goes 50K even on stock parts from Germany you start realizing that a $2000 crankshaft may be better than one that costs $850. Or pistons that go for $400 everywhere else may be worth the $200 extra they ask for theirs.

 

And in their catalog it clearly states on some items: "We reserve the right to restrict sales of this component to customers buying X, Y, & Z components at the same time." Wonder why they do that? I know why...

 

While all the rip off places have gone belly up (good luck on warranty there, kiddo!) Berg is still going strong and developing new items as the situation arises. Before you knock someone for not 'supporting' your request for free engineering courses, realize they are in business, and it gets OLD spoonfeeding hard-learned lessons to someone you know won't spend a nickel on your products, reimburse you for your time, or likely even say 'thank you for your time' after they have milked all your knowledge to then buy a cheap e-bay rip off of your product and install it. Put yourself in their shoes and realize what that feels like to know your on the phone with a time waster. A parasite. Someone looking for valuable information for free.

 

Keep that in mind...