Modern Exotic sport car handling and comfort possible in a s30?

[Gritz]

Modern Exotic sport car handling and comfort possible in a s30?

 

I've seen really fast s30's( mine is one of them ) and awesome handling s30's; however i haven't seen many that combine the two with great comfort. I was watching Top gear, one of my fav tv shows the other day and that got me thinking. Most of the cars they review unless it's a all out race car is graded with speed, handling and comfort in mind.. I know anything is possible but is this a realistic goal in a s30 chassis with out breaking the bank. Exotic sport feel without breaking the bank, I'm losing my mind

[BRAAP]

This exact discussion is on that RTz and myself have on a regular basis over the past 15 years or so.

 

My opinion is yes it can be done. The LS1 powered C5 Vette is one such sports car that works on the track, autocross and is comfortable on long jaunts. I mean the standard Vette, not the Z51 handling package or Z06. Those are bit harsher in their ride though do perform a little bit better. E36 and E46 BMW M3 is another car that is good jack of all trades, (Love my M3 for that reason)

 

So, using the LS1 C5 Vette and/or M3 as the benchmark, what does it take to get an S30 to perform to that level of handling, acceleration and braking and creature comfort?

 

1) S30 can be modified to produce great steady state grip without loosing too much of its road manners or gaining too much noise.

 

2) Decent transitional handling, corner entry, and exit performance, slalom. Getting this AND maintaining good steady state grip is a huge compromise with the Datsun suspension. Up front the Z suffers from insufficient caster, too much king pin angle, and the unsprung to sprung weight ration is bit high and shows up as harsher ride as the springs and dampers get tighter. The rear, geometry is not bad, but again not great. It is much less of compromise in the back than the Z front suspension, which why when people ant to replace the Z rear suspension not bother with the front and say it is for handling upgrade reasons, their true intent is questioned. The rear does suffer from being heavy. The control arm is actually quite light and strong.

 

3) Acceleration. This is easy from the standpoint of a choice, hard part is affording it and getting in, mounted in soft enough mounts so as not to shake the car apart and annoy occupants yet be tight enough it doesn't "wind-up" some 90 degrees under acceleration and deceleration, Volvo 240 Turbo wagon comes to mind with all its wind up. Boost the L-6, swap in a N/A or boosted twin cam 6, V8 or rotary. Keeping the exhaust quiet is the hardest part without losing to much power in the process.

 

4) Braking. Again, relatively easily as their are plenty of brake upgrades out there, though expensive especially if wiling to modify or replace the Datsun suspension with more modern designs that have less compromise in them, (and NO, the Nissan Multilink crap does not fall under better! It only works good when made so stiff its doesn't have to travel, which semi trailing arm will also work just as well and weighs less.)

 

5) Road noise! This. This one will be tough, mainly due to the S30 chassis being so small and tight. Lots of sound deadening, different layer to dampen the broad spectrum of interior noise that reverberates through the S-30 shell. This will also add considerable weight to the car. How the suspension attaches to the car affects road noise, as does tire choice.

 

If one is wiling to swap out the front and rear suspension with OE components from modern sports car such as the M3 or C-5 Vette, or other comparable car that handles well and is relatively quiet at freeway speeds, wiling to apply lot os effort into sound deadening, it can be done. Though for a lot less money, one could just buy a C5 Vette, M3, M5, comparable Mercedes, Porsche, etc.

 

My $.02

[19762802+2]

If you want a nice modern sports car why just not buy one, I bought my Z because I want the Raw driving experience, I want to hear the road and the car. I want my car to be a Toy not an appliance, to each their own though.

[310z]

The Recaro seats I have in my Z make it the most comfortable seats I have ever been in, period. They have all day comfort. Does my Z have climate control like my other cars? No. So if it is above 75 degrees it is hot and the wind wares on you. GPS? yes. Is it fast. Yes. It has been on a track and it was very impressive. Is it Lexus quiet inside? Absolutely not and I even installed a resonator and lots of sound deadening. So can an S30 be driven all day in comfort my answer is yes, if the temperature is below 75. When the windows are down all day, I feel pretty beat up by night fall. Did I break the bank to achieve this. Yes. Is it fun to have a guy in a modified 2010 Porsche Turbo at the track say "I have the best German technology in the world. Your car is 40 years old. How can it do that. You are all over me." Yes, Yes it is.

[johnc]

The answer is yes. The first 80% (the handling) is known and fairly straight forward. The last 20% (the comfort and NVH) will take the most time and effort and the attention to detail is critical. Rick Johnson has achieved a modern level of handling, comfort, and NVH control in his V8 240Z but it has taken him a long time. He is (was) a NVH engineer for Nissan and did a talk at my shop on how to isolate NVH by determining the frequency. He went so far as to rebuilt and sort out three different R200 diffs trying to reduce as much gear noise as possible.

 

I did something slightly similar to my last street 240Z and a whole lot of little things went a long way to making the car more comfortable. Like rebuilding the window regulators and using softer durometer rollers and Teflon guides sourced from McMaster-Carr.

[Gritz]

This exact discussion is on that RTz and myself have on a regular basis over the past 15 years or so.

 

My opinion is yes it can be done. The LS1 powered C5 Vette is one such sports car that works on the track, autocross and is comfortable on long jaunts. I mean the standard Vette, not the Z51 handling package or Z06. Those are bit harsher in their ride though do perform a little bit better. E36 and E46 BMW M3 is another car that is good jack of all trades, (Love my M3 for that reason)

 

So, using the LS1 C5 Vette and/or M3 as the benchmark, what does it take to get an S30 to perform to that level of handling, acceleration and braking and creature comfort?

 

1) S30 can be modified to produce great steady state grip without loosing too much of its road manners or gaining too much noise.

 

2) Decent transitional handling, corner entry, and exit performance, slalom. Getting this AND maintaining good steady state grip is a huge compromise with the Datsun suspension. Up front the Z suffers from insufficient caster, too much king pin angle, and the unsprung to sprung weight ration is bit high and shows up as harsher ride as the springs and dampers get tighter. The rear, geometry is not bad, but again not great. It is much less of compromise in the back than the Z front suspension, which why when people ant to replace the Z rear suspension not bother with the front and say it is for handling upgrade reasons, their true intent is questioned. The rear does suffer from being heavy. The control arm is actually quite light and strong.

 

3) Acceleration. This is easy from the standpoint of a choice, hard part is affording it and getting in, mounted in soft enough mounts so as not to shake the car apart and annoy occupants yet be tight enough it doesn't "wind-up" some 90 degrees under acceleration and deceleration, Volvo 240 Turbo wagon comes to mind with all its wind up. Boost the L-6, swap in a N/A or boosted twin cam 6, V8 or rotary. Keeping the exhaust quiet is the hardest part without losing to much power in the process.

 

4) Braking. Again, relatively easily as their are plenty of brake upgrades out there, though expensive especially if wiling to modify or replace the Datsun suspension with more modern designs that have less compromise in them, (and NO, the Nissan Multilink crap does not fall under better! It only works good when made so stiff its doesn't have to travel, which semi trailing arm will also work just as well and weighs less.)

 

5) Road noise! This. This one will be tough, mainly due to the S30 chassis being so small and tight. Lots of sound deadening, different layer to dampen the broad spectrum of interior noise that reverberates through the S-30 shell. This will also add considerable weight to the car. How the suspension attaches to the car affects road noise, as does tire choice.

 

If one is wiling to swap out the front and rear suspension with OE components from modern sports car such as the M3 or C-5 Vette, or other comparable car that handles well and is relatively quiet at freeway speeds, wiling to apply lot os effort into sound deadening, it can be done. Though for a lot less money, one could just buy a C5 Vette, M3, M5, comparable Mercedes, Porsche, etc.

 

My $.02

 

 

Well those cars don't have the classic looks of the s30...great post!

[BRAAP]

Well those cars don't have the classic looks of the s30...great post!

 

 

Exactly, the M3 and C5 do offer great performance with livable creature comforts, (why I chose them as the benchmark), but lack the classic S-30 styling.

 

In getting older, driving more often, in heavy traffic, in wanting that driving experience to be more comfortable yet maintain the fun performance of spry sports car when I do get on the back roads near home I was willing to compromise the "WOW look at me" styling for the more conservative mature styling of a sedan, (yeah, I know, old man styling), so I am currently combining the impeccable handling manners of the quiet and comfortable BMW M3 with the wonderful torque of the GM LSx V8;

 

http://forums.hybridz.org/index.php/topic/79556-lsx-powered-bmw-m3-e36-chassis/

 

Doesn't have that S30 sex appeal, but I'm OK with that in the point in life.

[LoneStarS30Z]

The Recaro seats I have in my Z make it the most comfortable seats I have ever been in, period. They have all day comfort.

 

 

I agree with this, good seats play a HUGE part in the comfort area of this conversation. When I bought my Z it some knock off reclinaeble bucket seats and the lower back support was absolutely unbearable for more than 5 minutes. I had to put a rolled up hoody on my lower back to help support my lower back. I have then switched to non-turbo 944 seats which are million times more comfortable, but lack in bolstering.

 

In my old IS300 I had a pair of Recaro SRD seats and those have to have been the most comfortable AND supportive seats I have ever owned. Keep in mind, they were a grand for both, but those seats are pretty unrivaled for what they offered.

[Gritz]

If you want a nice modern sports car why just not buy one, I bought my Z because I want the Raw driving experience, I want to hear the road and the car. I want my car to be a Toy not an appliance, to each their own though.

 

Are you saying a car can't have a raw driving experience and be comfortable? All high end sports cars says high..

[Derek]

My recipe for comfort.

 

350Z seats (or equivalent)

Spray on sound deadener

Dynamat style deadener

Closed cell neopreen

Aluminum backed jute mat

Aluminum sandwich air cell insulation

Full carpet kit

Vintage Air A/C kit

Spal power window kit

Spal central locking system

Rostra servo driven cruise control

Good sound system

 

Tokico Illumina shocks.

For me this has been a great combination. I keep the shocks firm around town. A little less when the wife unit is with me and all the way soft if I'm on a road trip. I'm 51 and I can do a 3 hour stint at the wheel and feel like I just got up from the couch.

 

My philosophy for my build was "make it comfortable and then buy as much horsepower as I can afford". Unfortunately I ran out of $$$ before I could get the ponies!!!!

 

Don't under estimate the value of creature comforts in improving the overall drive.

 

Derek

[RTz]

Though for a lot less money, one could just buy a C5 Vette, M3, M5, comparable Mercedes, Porsche, etc.

 

 

That is exactly the issue for me. Do I think it can be done? Yeah, for the most part. But it will take money, time, and talent. A serious investment if you're serious about the outcome. And likely, when you're done, the cars finished value won't reflect the effort. That may not be an issue for some, but it's at least a consideration for me.

 

And yes, there are cars out there that perform well, deliver the 'right' sensations, and drive comfortably enough on longer trips. Some of them can be had for the price of a nicely built S30.

[19762802+2]

Are you saying a car can't have a raw driving experience and be comfortable? All high end sports cars says high..

 

No, I feel like in my opinion you can't have one with the other. That is just my opinion on it. I would rather be in a car that I could hear what was going on so I knew if something went wrong, and be able to feel the road and just the experience of it, I think too much comfort takes away from that experience.

[johnc]

I agree, you can't have raw and comfortable.

 

Here's RAW:

 

 

Here's comfortable:

 

[Gritz]

I agree, you can't have raw and comfortable.

 

Here's RAW:

 

 

Here's comfortable:

 

 

Well i agree you can't have extremes on either end....theres a reason exotic's cost as much as they do..

[Gritz]

No, I feel like in my opinion you can't have one with the other. That is just my opinion on it. I would rather be in a car that I could hear what was going on so I knew if something went wrong, and be able to feel the road and just the experience of it, I think too much comfort takes away from that experience.

 

I see what you are saying, but a car like that can only be enjoyed in spurts, which i know is just fine for some..

Edited August 28, 2010 by Gritz

[Dudeboy]

The S30 can be all the above, but you have to break the bank to do it as stated. Speaking as the owner of a C5 vette, there is a similar debate raging between C6 owners and C5 owners. I know two individuals who traded in there C5s for newer corvettes, and just was not happy with the "comfort" of the newer corvettes. Both, have sold there newer cars and gone back to C5. As I get closer to getting my Z on the road, I am looking forward to my Z not being refined and being closer to a race-car than a street car. One other point, the run-flat tires on corvettes serve a purpose, once you get rid of them and get regular performance tires the ride is like night and day ! Something as simple as tires make a giant difference in ride comfort.

[dsommer]

My recipe for comfort.

 

350Z seats (or equivalent)

Spray on sound deadener

Dynamat style deadener

Closed cell neopreen

Aluminum backed jute mat

Aluminum sandwich air cell insulation

Full carpet kit

Vintage Air A/C kit

Spal power window kit

Spal central locking system

Rostra servo driven cruise control

Good sound system

 

Derek

[/size]

 

Could you elaborate further on the sound deadening aspect of your post? Brand names, pics would be great. I'm about to sound deaden my interior and am considering the second skin approach with the spray on part. Did you spray on then use the dynamat then the closed cell?

 

Thanks,

David

[260DET]

Modern Exotic sport car handling and comfort possible in a s30?

 

From a practical perspective I'm going to say "no". Like anything else, if you throw enough money and expertise at it then you may get close but realistically "no". Without going over the same ground as others have done here, I'll mention just one aspect, aero. For it to remain a S30 you can't change the basic body shape so your S30 will remain relatively noisy and inefficient aero wise which is a big disadvantage compared with modern cars.

 

Accept a S30 for what it is and what can be done to improve it, which is a lot, or else get something modern.

[Savage42]

I was fortunate to go out in a new Corvette Grand Sport for a "Test Drive" article and I have to say that I was pleasantly surprised. It has a MUCH nicer interior (should come that way in ALL Corvettes) and with the automatic w/ paddle shifter, it was a nice car to drive through town and with 436HP on tap, it got the job done, too. It does have upgraded brakes, but is not quite a Z06. I drove a C6 Z06 and that is definitely a street legal race car, but not something I'd want to drive every day. The Grand Sport is a great "middle ground" Corvette. Of course, most don't have the money to spend $60-70k to get a car that does almost everything well and still gets good mileage on the hwy.

 

As for getting an S30 to be both, dealing with old technology and trying to get road noise levels down with the old school suspension is next to impossible. Like BRAAP said, put newer stuff on the S30 body. My buddy has an M3 we wants to put on a C6 chassis (with definite modification) and he's the same guy who just bought a new Ferrari 458 and says it's the best car he's ever driven and is tempted to gut it and put in a cage, so he can go hit the track with it! It's always a compromise, I'd say!

[Gritz]

The reason i made this post was to combine our minds on a common goal to see if i was missing anything from what i was already thinking...if that makes sense; the conclusion i came to is to make it work you would have to change a substantial amount of the s30 layout and body to get close...Something that would take away from what is special about the s30..

 

Now lets discuss a middle ground in detail...is tokico the best option we have for performance and comfort? How about power steering; What rack is the best that we can use?

Edited August 30, 2010 by Gritz