Will it be Allowed? Rollbar Issue

[jeff81]

I was wondering if this might be accepted in open track events, hot laps at car clubs events, or other type of similar activities. I am 6'3" and 235. This arrangement allows for the seats not to be too far forward. I know that it will not pass the requirements for an SCCA race. I am just hoping that the other type of events may be possible? What is the verdict?

Do I need to try to find an alternative or do something else. I really could use some experience from people that have gone to different events.

 

Jeff

Edited September 22, 2010 by jeff81

[bjhines]

You are too tall for the little Japanese car. You don't need any kind of bracing to run a car with a roof in a normal HPDE event. You can even use the 35 year old lap belts at your own risk. You will have to use SFI rated high density foam padding because you added risk of head injury.

 

Time Trials and other forms of competition require a main hoop with rear braces and a main diagonal brace.

 

You need straight leg rear braces to run in THSCC time trials. You should be able to place straight tubes back there without affecting seat setback. The seat or your head will hit the hoop first. I don't see why you would have a need for bent rear braces in the first place.

 

The main hoop diagonal brace must be continuous and "in the plane" of the main hoop. You have it cut in two, bent in the middle, and tied to another bent bar for seat belt mounting. That will not pass either.

 

The way you have things, the hoop does very little to stiffen the chassis. It will add some strength in a rollover, but not nearly the strength it could have if it was "by the rules" book. The design rules are well thought out and have been proven to work. What you see as small changes actually defy it's intended purpose.

Edited September 22, 2010 by bjhines

[jeff81]

Then, should I have them cut it out and go without one? I have had them do some strengthening to the chassis other than the rollbar. I am told that to do it right, I will not be able to fit. So should I just cut it out and hope the chassis is supportive enough for a basic LS3? Thanks for the information and help with this issue.

 

Jeff

[bjhines]

The problems with fitting you in the car are not related to the simple rollover hoop. The changes the "engineer" made to standard hoop design do not affect the way YOU fit into the car. I think you found a shop that simply does not know what they are doing. I think the guy looked at some poor quality pictures and let his imagination run away with him. What he has told you about fitment is just to cover his own misguided attempts at cage design...

 

The issues you will have are related to headroom(in front of the roll-bar). The S30 has a short roof and tall seat mounts. You would fit much better into a more modern design like the BMW E30 or later models. The BMW seats bolt directly to the floor and the roof is taller.

Edited September 22, 2010 by bjhines

[jeff81]

They went through and redid all the seat mounts. The issues when test fitting have been my longish legs. I bought a super low sitting seat so headroom is almost a non-factor. The issue is the leg room with how the seats are in there now. I am thinking about just going without and hope the following pictures of the floor supports will be enough to keep the body from twisting and staying in shape.

 

Jeff

[bjhines]

I must say... The guy is a great welder. The sheet metal work is NICE! There is a lot of effort spent on cleaning and preparation.

 

The frame connectors look great. They will go a long way toward stiffening the chassis.

 

The rollbar could be setback more and set into the front of the wheelwells. You must look at the rules regarding proper height of the rollbar. You must imagine a line from the top of the rollbar to the top of the front radiator support. Your head must be BELOW that line. I really think you can get it to fit you.

 

Your real problems would come from the front half of a full cage. There are cars you simply won't fit into with a full cage. The 240Z and most Corvettes have the same issues.

[JMortensen]

The main hoop doesn't need to stand straight up. I kicked the legs forward and leaned the hoop back for clearance. My hoop sits about 3/4" in front of the map bar light, so basically no headroom lost, and I can set the seat so far back that I can't press the clutch pedal all the way in (6' tall). So I think that would probably be enough clearance front to back for a guy your size. Sounds like your guy already got you squared away on headroom.

 

I have to say, great welder or not, the fact that someone would build a 4 point roll bar like that at all makes me wonder about him. At the very least I would have him tell you what he is going to do before he does it next time. That roll bar is not good at all.

[jt1]

Since standards vary from one organization to the next, the only way to be sure is check with the group you're going to run with.

 

I agree with Jon and John that the rollbar isn't the greatest. However, it's probably better than nothing. Around here, I suspect the bar would be OK for HDPE and track days, but not for timetrials and racing. The group you run with will make the final decision, so that's who it's best to ask.

 

Your seat and belt mounting is also an important factor you need to consider.

 

jt

Edited September 23, 2010 by jt1

[doublexl240z]

You should fit just fine in this car with a proper roll cage!! I am 6'4" and 295 lbs and I fit in my car with no problems!!

[jeff81]

Well, with the seats I have bought and the way the mounts were fabricated, they declared that the is no way to get it the way I originally asked for. I have to either keep it or have them cut it out and go without. With the seats I have purchased and the mounts having been finished, I will either just have them cut it out or leave it as is. The seats fit in well, with no issues in regards to the roof and fabricated rollbar. So, should I just pay to have them cut it out or leave it in there as is?

Please let me know. I think with the other strengthening to the body, I am leaning to having it removed and go without unitl I find a shop I can trust or a definative need for a rollbar?

It will be a daily driver, so maybe best without it.

 

Jeff

Edited September 28, 2010 by jeff81

[doublexl240z]

My first question would be: You originally asked for the seat one particular way? They did not deliver what you asked for, and they want to charge you to correct that?

Not the way I would do business! We,the customer and I, come to an agreement on what is expected, both from me and from them. If I don't deliver as promised(product/workmanship) than they don't deliver (money). Now, that being said. We came to an agreement on what was practical and feasible. If I can't meet that, I don't take the job, or if its not done as agreed, I can't charge, nor can I charge to fix.

The seat should be basically bolted to the floor! The rear stays should be straight, from an engineering standpoint and from the rulebook on just about anybody who has cage/roll bar rules. The quality seems to be there in their welding etc. just the application is not what I would consider correct.

If you keep it the way it is can you fit?? If not there is no alternative in my eyes. Make it Fit!!!! If not, bring it to Orlando and we will take care of you!!!!

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you milage may vary, not to be used in conjunction with any other offers, price reflects previous sale, this is a limited time offer, new customers only, there is only 2 vehicles at this price, this has no cash value!!

[Dunlop]

I thought you had to have the bottoms of the cage welded to 6x6 metal plates, that can only have one bend in them.

The seats i got for my car are the bride low max seats. I have good clearance sitting in them normal with my cage but, if i have a

helmet on then i can just take the pads out to get lower when in the seat when i need too.

 

Edit... although you have to be normal size person to fit in them, they sure hold onto you though

Edited November 7, 2010 by Dunlop

[Tony D]

The big question is did you make the seat fore-aft adjustable? That can cause fittment issues. I cut the seat supports out altogether, using some thicker plate to move the load around rather than simply bolting through the flat floorboards.

 

We ran like that for years, until the sanctioning body required us to 'tie the seat into the roll structure and not the unitbody'---meaning we had to run a 1 3/8" loop under the seat and tie it to the door bars and roll hoop, braces, etc. That took away our adjustable seat mechanisim (multiple drivers)---so two guys now run the car as a driver, instead of three.

 

I bought an S130 that I would fit into...

[johnc]

I thought you had to have the bottoms of the cage welded to 6x6 metal plates, that can only have one bend in them.

 

 

No, at least as far as SCCA is concerned.

 

GCR 9.4.E.3. Mounting Plates

 

General

 

a. Mounting plates welded to the structure of the car shallnot be less than .080 inches thick nor more than 0.25

inches thick. The maximum area of each mounting plate inthe American Sedan, Improved Touring, Showroom Stock,

Spec Miata, and Touring classes shall be 144 square inches. Plates may be on multiple planes but shall not be

greater than 15 inches on any side.

 

b. The thickness of mounting plates bolted or riveted to the structure of the car must not be less than the thickness of the roll hoop or brace that they attach to the chassis, and must be backed up with a plate of equal size and thickness on the opposite side of the chassis panel. The maximum area of each mounting plate must be 144 square inches. Plates may be on multiple planes but shall not be greater than 15 inches on any side.

 

c. Fasteners for bolted or riveted mounting plates must be Grade 5 or better with a minimum diameter of 5/16”.

[jeff81]

Hey thanks for all the help and suggestions.

I did not design it that way. I went into that portion of the project with a plan that I stated may or may not work with the type of seats that I was going to use to address my height and the overall use of the car. Thanks to all the previous listings, I really had a great idea on the design. It just did not work out.

The seat fabrication and all the other fab work was excellent. The rollbar build was also great, but not to the specs that I specified after having done many hours of research. It was unfortunate that the miscommunication and misunderstanding has occured. I am having them cut it out. If the rollbar was unable to do as desired with the seats makes it not able to stay. I am planning on a 85-90% daily driver, thus I knew the rollbar was a stretch to begin with. I just wish they would have been more careful to what I asked for them to do.

Its a complicated large build, and so far this is the only issue. Still have not worked out the issue of money associated with the rollbar, and that conversation will be occuring in the coming weeks. Overall, do the lesson learned is do your research and stand on top of the builder.

 

Jeff

[bjhines]

There is enough GOOD metalwork in that build to give the builder a break. I would pay for tubing materials and tell him to knock off the labor. There is a learning curve for both of you here. The guy did some fantastic metalwork. He just has no engineering knowledge whatsoever.

[Tony D]

bj makes a good point, sounds like the compromise I would come to... Don't bury them for parts and labor, but don't pay for work that isn't spec.---something like an internal burdened rate for labor actual hours rounded down appropriately, but not their full shop charge. They gotta pay the guy that did it, and likely he wasn't the one who designed it in the first place. No compensation for removal per se...but cleaning up where it was on the pan, etc maybe.

 

Always hard to do this to a shop that does such nice work, but building a car is not a charity event! (welll.....)

[jeff81]

I completely understand. I am overall very happy about everything. I really am just hoping that they won't charge me for the hourly pay on the removal of the rollbar. I am not going to be over the top. Like I said, the quality is really good, just lacking communication.

It is money wasted and some time wasted, but this is no easy cut and dry process. I am happy that things are progressing quite quickly.

They are a good shop. The buider has done excellent work.

Thanks for the advice and recommendations. I can use all the help I can get.

 

Jeff