mxgsfmdpx Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 I agree! There is limited room plus the 1 7/8 into 3" would be loud given the limited room for mufflers. Not sure if the bump in size would be worth the drone in the passenger compartment. Also, the gain in hp vs 1 1/2 into 2 1/2 would be negligible IMHO The point of long tube, large diameter headers is for making power. If you research LS1 tech, the specs that Cable posted are EXACTLY what are recommended for making the most power and torque out of an NA LS1 motor. It has been researched for years and the information is available if you seek it. As far as the "loudness", sound quality is all personal preference. A good set of mufflers goes a long way, also pipe design, and how the exhaust exits the car. Simply having a larger diameter pipe does NOT mean it will always be louder, and absolutely does NOT mean it will drone more. If you don't want a loud open exhaust, you WILL NOT make as much power. I'm sorry, but that is the truth. Again, it has been researched and proven via years of LS1 study and trial. With smaller diameter and less free flowing shorty headers, you cannot build the cam and valve train on the LS1 motor as radical as you can with the long tube design, again, long tubes are for making POWER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 (edited) Deleted dupe sorry my iPhone app went nuts Edited October 6, 2010 by kjones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 (edited) Well for all the headaches that 3" pipes create to gain a small amount of hp it ain't worth it. Plus I don't care what anyone says - 30 years experience tells me that 3" pipes are louder than 2.5" 99.99% of the time. If you make 1.5" into 2.5" I'm interested Edited October 6, 2010 by kjones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mxgsfmdpx Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 (edited) Well for all the headaches that 3" pipes create to gain a small amount of hp it ain't worth it. Plus I don't care what anyone says - 30 years experience tells me that 3" pipes are louder than 2.5" 99.99% of the time. If you make 1.5" into 2.5" I'm interested You can still run 2.5 inch pipes after the collector, all the way back.. The 3 inch collector (if it will fit) is important for getting the best flow and most power out of the headers... As the piston reaches the top of the exhaust stroke, it dwells as the crankshaft sweeps across the top of its stroke. This is where valve overlap occurs. Before the piston reaches Top Dead Center, the intake valve begins to open. The trick is to design the exhaust system so that the exhaust pulse leaves behind a pressure drop or vacuum to take advantage of the valve overlap. If successful, the combustion chamber will exchange residual exhaust gases for a fresh air/fuel mixture before the piston has any real effect on the intake charge. To design a successful exhaust system or tuned header, the tube size and length are selected based on a list of engine specifications (specifications Cable has posted through his research of the LS1 motor) and application characteristics. The tube size controls the speed of the exhaust pulse, too big or small and the velocity (energy) is lost. The tube length and collector diameter is all about timing the pulse to synchronize with the cam in a specific RPM range. We want to be able to run certain cams/heads to make certain power levels, which are not usable with stock exhaust manifolds, or the current "shorty" headers applied into the Z's with LS1's. Again, the research has been done for the LS1 motors, and the diameters of each part of the headers being designed are to perfect spec. Edited October 6, 2010 by mxgsfmdpx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cable Posted October 6, 2010 Author Share Posted October 6, 2010 (edited) Okay guys, a few updates with the headers..... First the good: -After speaking with the header company, the first intro (and perhaps the only) production run will be sold for only $500 per pair. If there is another production run the price will likely go up. I am still waiting to hear about the headpipes (with manual cutouts) to see if they are going to be cheaper than $250 a set. Now the bad: -In order to get the $500 per pair deal, they have to be ordered in sets of 50 (pairs). Even if I don't have deposits for all 50 pairs, they are still going to ordered knowing that they will sell anyway since there clearly is a market and demand for them. The headpipes will also be bought in sets of 50. -The first run (and perhaps the only run) of headers will only be available with 1 3/4" primaries with 3" collectors (can easily be reduces to 2.5" or smaller after the collector if so desired, see below). -The first run of headpipes will only be available in 2.5" mandrel bend stainless steel. These will have 3.0" to 2.5" reducers already installed. -The headers and headpipes will only be available in stainless steel (no mild steel and/or ceramic coating option available). -The turn around time for the initial run is going to be at least 60 days, but shouldn't be longer than 90 days. After the initial run of 50 pairs, every additional run (if any) of 50 will only take 30 days. Attached are pics of two different sets of headers produced by the same header company, FYI the prototypes will not be nearly as pretty because they are never going to be used other than a template for the production pieces. The prototypes are getting started on Monday morning along with the headpipes. Edited October 7, 2010 by Cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kj280z Posted October 6, 2010 Share Posted October 6, 2010 (edited) Okay guys, just got off the phone with the header company.... A few changes (good and not so good) happened, I hope we call all live with the changes. First the good: -After speaking with the header company, the first intro production run will be sold at only $500 per pair. The next run will be likely be raised. I am still waiting to hear if the headpipes with manual cutouts will be cheaper than $250. Now the bad: -In order to get the $500 per pair deal, I have to order them in sets of 50 pairs. Even if I don't have deposits for all 50 pairs, I am still going to order the run of 50 pairs. The headpipes will also be bought in sets of 50. -The first run of headers will only be available with 1 3/4" primaries with 3" collectors (can easily be reduces to 2.5" or smaller after the collector if so desired, see below). -The first run of headpipes will only be available in 2.5" mandrel bend stainless steel. These will have 3.0" to 2.5" reducers already installed. -The headers and headpipes will only be available in stainless steel (no mild steel and/or ceramic coating option available). -The turn around time for the initial run is going to be at least 60 days, but no longer than 90 days. After the initial run of 50 pairs, every additional run of 50 will only take 30 days. Attached are pics of two different sets of headers produced by the same company, FYI the prototypes will not be nearly as pretty because they are never going to be used other than a template for the production pieces. I am starting on the prototypes on Monday morning along with the headpipes. Oh well - That time frame won't work for me... I would need a set in no more than 30 days... The price sounds good, but I will say that I have my doubts about the 3" collector clearance - will be curious to see how you are able to figure that out... Also with the larger primaries, there might be other clearance challenges. Finally, I'd like to see the ground clearance - My Z is being built (almost done) to be my daily driver... Also, for the discussions related to increased performance and "max gains" - in order for that to be achieved, in my experience that means that they are designed with a specific cam, intake, rocker ratio, primary length and collector all designed together... otherwise you see marginal gains - my comments about the increased drone from running larger pipes vs. the increased power are still valid within that context. The explanations given by mxgsfmdpx were valid, but that "maximization" in my experience is only achieved with all the other components working in unison... Edited October 6, 2010 by kjones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ironman Posted October 7, 2010 Share Posted October 7, 2010 Hey, I do I have interest in the LT's. As long as it clears the JCI mounting configuration. The biggest thing for me is time frame. If you have this within 3-7 months then I will be seriously interested. The time frame is my estimated time for the beginning of the LS1 swap. (Only thing that is really stopping me is sourcing a LS1 at the right price) Once I start, I will purchase Sanderson headers if not available. After purchasing the Sanderson headers, it will be almost impossible for me to justify the LT's. Time is money Good Luck with everything Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cable Posted October 7, 2010 Author Share Posted October 7, 2010 Oh well - That time frame won't work for me... I would need a set in no more than 30 days... The price sounds good, but I will say that I have my doubts about the 3" collector clearance - will be curious to see how you are able to figure that out... Also with the larger primaries, there might be other clearance challenges. Finally, I'd like to see the ground clearance - My Z is being built (almost done) to be my daily driver... I wish I could have them ready in 30 days, its going to take them at least 30 days just to create the jigs based on my prototype. Regardless, I wouldn't ever offer a header with less than a 1 5/8" primary, it wouldn't be worth it for since no one else has even asked about anything smaller than 1 3/4" primaries. The collector will likely remain 3.0", but if there is no other way, then I will go to 2.5", but then again I can't see 1/4" (of ground clearence) being much more of an issue over 3.0" collectors. My S30 is my daily driver and these headers are being build to deal with everyday street driving in mind (speed bumps, dips, etc). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bare Speed Posted October 7, 2010 Share Posted October 7, 2010 they look really nice. Here is a real question we will all have LS1 240z or variants. How much power do we really need? We are not done building the car up yet and its not drivable. Stock is 340bhp, some mods, cam, intake, shorty header, tunner are pretty basic. I think that will make easy 450bhp? It depends on the setup. 0-60 in 4sec or less? 1/4 mile in 11.5? Something like that. Now we have long headers to gain how much more hp? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cable Posted October 7, 2010 Author Share Posted October 7, 2010 they look really nice. Here is a real question we will all have LS1 240z or variants. How much power do we really need? We are not done building the car up yet and its not drivable. Stock is 340bhp, some mods, cam, intake, shorty header, tunner are pretty basic. I think that will make easy 450bhp? It depends on the setup. 0-60 in 4sec or less? 1/4 mile in 11.5? Something like that. Now we have long headers to gain how much more hp? A wise man once said, "the gap between not enough and too much never changes". Not changing your mind already, are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkZ Posted October 7, 2010 Share Posted October 7, 2010 I would be interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mxgsfmdpx Posted October 7, 2010 Share Posted October 7, 2010 Oh well - That time frame won't work for me... I would need a set in no more than 30 days... The price sounds good, but I will say that I have my doubts about the 3" collector clearance - will be curious to see how you are able to figure that out... Also with the larger primaries, there might be other clearance challenges. Finally, I'd like to see the ground clearance - My Z is being built (almost done) to be my daily driver... Also, for the discussions related to increased performance and "max gains" - in order for that to be achieved, in my experience that means that they are designed with a specific cam, intake, rocker ratio, primary length and collector all designed together... otherwise you see marginal gains - my comments about the increased drone from running larger pipes vs. the increased power are still valid within that context. The explanations given by mxgsfmdpx were valid, but that "maximization" in my experience is only achieved with all the other components working in unison... 100% correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mxgsfmdpx Posted October 7, 2010 Share Posted October 7, 2010 they look really nice. Here is a real question we will all have LS1 240z or variants. How much power do we really need? We are not done building the car up yet and its not drivable. Stock is 340bhp, some mods, cam, intake, shorty header, tunner are pretty basic. I think that will make easy 450bhp? It depends on the setup. 0-60 in 4sec or less? 1/4 mile in 11.5? Something like that. Now we have long headers to gain how much more hp? It's all about your engine build. See my above posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mxgsfmdpx Posted October 7, 2010 Share Posted October 7, 2010 Cable, that pricing is awesome! I assume both the headers and the headpipes will come with all the necessary hardware and gaskets needed for install? Can't wait t see the prototypes installed on your car. Please also provide pictures of the headpipes installed so we can see the bends and how it routes. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cable Posted October 7, 2010 Author Share Posted October 7, 2010 Cable, that pricing is awesome! I assume both the headers and the headpipes will come with all the necessary hardware and gaskets needed for install? Can't wait t see the prototypes installed on your car. Please also provide pictures of the headpipes installed so we can see the bends and how it routes. Thanks! That is a good question about gaskets/hardware that I will find out confirm with header company. I would imagine it does not include the gaskets/hardware for the uber low price of $500. I will be taking many pictures during and after the prototypes are built and installed. Same goes with the headpipes. I plan on having the collectors within 1/2" of the floor for max ground clearence. Still, I have little doubt that some will still have ground clearence issues if their S30 has been lowered a decent amount. However, I don't think that most will have issues. Time will tell.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cable Posted October 7, 2010 Author Share Posted October 7, 2010 (edited) Oops. Double post... Edited October 7, 2010 by Cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blown77Z Posted October 7, 2010 Share Posted October 7, 2010 Count me in for a set if all goes well ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
svMike Posted October 7, 2010 Share Posted October 7, 2010 Still interested, and the timeframe works for me. I'm hoping to add a moderate cam to my LS3, so I was really hoping to get the larger 1 7/8" primaries. Is it a fitment the reason to go 1 3/4"? Keep the updates coming! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mxgsfmdpx Posted October 7, 2010 Share Posted October 7, 2010 (edited) Still interested, and the timeframe works for me. I'm hoping to add a moderate cam to my LS3, so I was really hoping to get the larger 1 7/8" primaries. Is it a fitment the reason to go 1 3/4"? Keep the updates coming! 1 3/4 primaries is actually more than enough needed to run a pretty aggressive cam. Check out LS1tech and view the thread "the recipe to 500 rwph NA" Great info there. You should be more concerned about the piping diameter going down to 2.5 inches instead of 3 inches. For the LS1 motors with aggressive heads and cam, a full 3 inch exhaust with either an X or H pipe is highly recommended. Cable, is the 2.5 inch piping all we can do? 3 inches would provide optimum performance gained from the custom long tubes. Also these will be an X pipe correct? Edited October 7, 2010 by mxgsfmdpx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cable Posted October 7, 2010 Author Share Posted October 7, 2010 (edited) Still interested, and the timeframe works for me. I'm hoping to add a moderate cam to my LS3, so I was really hoping to get the larger 1 7/8" primaries. Is it a fitment the reason to go 1 3/4"? Keep the updates coming! Fitment was part of it, but mostly because for the initial run of 50 pairs the header company is limiting the order to a single size/type of primaries and collector size. So in the interest in chosing a size that will give almost everyone a 'Happy-Medium" of good ground clearence, fitment, and most engine/cam options, etc, etc..... 1 3/4" primaries was the clear winner. Long tube headers with 1 3/4" primaries will support at least 500 rwhp and I imagine that covers 99% of the S30 LSx swap crowd. Anyone running 1 7/8" headers with less than 500 rwhp will actually loose low end torque. I realize I will not be able to make everyone happy, but something to keep in mind is that this long tube option is better than ANY 'shorty' headers in terms of power production and engine efficiency for about the same amount of money of the 'shorty' headers currently sold. Thanks guys, keep the support coming!! Edited October 7, 2010 by Cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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