Need some help with college (longgg rant)

[Tony D]

"This is easy, its busy work but painful."

 

WELCOME TO THE ADULT WORLD OF WORK OF AN ENGINEER IN AN OFFICE!

YOU HAVE JUST DISCOVERED THE SECRET OF LIFE, SON!

LIFE IS PUNCTUATION, SYNTAX, AND SHOWING UP ON TIME...

 

"I feel like UTA is trying to fail me out rather then help me PASS."

 

The purpose of a school is to weed out those incapable of performing at the level they demand for their criteria for a given subject.

This is why Western School of Law in Torrance on Sepulveda graduates (a help you pass the bar exam eventually kinda school...) has an average salary for their matriculated and Bar Accepted Students of maybe $70,000.

 

And why Harvard Law graduates with a "C" make 5-10X that amount.

 

Same for Engineering Schools...go to a good one and it's not easy. If it is, your pay will likely reflect it when (if) you graduate.

 

You, too can now laugh at the kid on ZCar.com who stated to me because he took advanced placement classes in Statistics that he 'had a good understanding of the subject'... He hasn't a clue. You are now finding out what inflated grades in High School do for you in the real world.

 

It doesn't get any better out in the real world. You thought your classes are hard now? Wait until you take on a real job, and get responsibility for something...MUAHAHAHAHAHA! You haven't a clue what awaits in terms of workload. Salary job? he he he he... No overtime for salaryman! Just business expense account if lucky, and no questions on the bar tabs nightly!

 

"I was under the impression that these classes are weed out classes and it will get better once you're in the department. If I'm wrong, I don't want to have anything to do with engineering at UTA."

 

It's not any better at any other good school. It doesn't get much easier than the 'weed out classes'...it's what determines who is an Engineer, and who gets a business degree...

 

And eventually an MBA...

Edited October 27, 2010 by Tony D

[BLOZ UP]

I think Cal 1's failure rate is 40-60%. Keep in mind that Cal 2 has a similar rate--and these are the people that passed Cal 1. I strongly recommend taking Cal 2, at least, at TCC.

 

Do the classes get harder? It depends. The higher level CS courses I'm taking now aren't that bad. Some aspects of the course are familiar, since I've been programming as a hobby since I was a teen. A lot of CS people, who don't have a problem with Calculus, failed the intermediate programming courses, Java and C. I look back and laugh at them, but then again, I have all this trouble integrating...

 

But now in the higher CS courses, I'm figuring out all this theory that ties everything together, and I enjoy learning about it. Wanting to learn about a subject helps tremendously on your brain's willingness to learn. Where the real determination comes from is sticking through those courses that seem lame. Although I find quite a bit of Cal 1+2 interesting, seeing it's applications in my major, I still hate it... and hate the level of it they expect from you. But I'm taking it at TCC, and I can say it is much easier. If there's a couple employers that will wonder why I took math at a community college, I can live with it.

 

For me, 6 or more hours was enough for my financial aid, especially since me and my girlfriend live off my wages (which is below poverty level). Except she's not married to me so they count feeding her and whatnot as "voluntary". Your situation is probably different.

 

 

One story I'd like to share is one of an ME student that has a work-study job at my school. He was a stereotypical college male: short blonde hair, whitened teeth, tribal tattoo, constantly on his phone and facebook talking about "getting wasted".

 

Yet he was done with Cal 3, and just finished doing Fluids, Statics and whatever it is that ME's take. This same person was on a computer in front of me, clicking on one of those "Make $8,000 a week, click here to learn how one [LOCAL CITY NAME] mom made this money overnight!"

 

He proceeded to enter his credit card info to pay $4.95 for their "information" on how to make this money. He then turned around and asked me "Hey, do you think this is a scam?" After asking him what he was doing, and learning that his card had been declined, I told him it was best to leave it at that and check his account's transaction list for a couple weeks. I explained to him that it was a scam, and that the "news" site he saw it on was just a single page where all the links brought you to the same page. And that the information they have is just on how to use Google AdSense, information that's free elsewhere. I explained that they probably wouldn't steal his identity, just that they would charge him the 5 bucks for worthless information.

 

So, the moral of my story is: If that moron can pass Cal 3 and graduate, then so can I.

 

And that's what keeps me going.

Edited October 27, 2010 by BLOZ UP

[jas280z]

Josh, keep your head up. I am a senior ME major at the University at Buffalo, I have been where you are. Well, not quite, our failure rates aren't quite like that. I often look back at the classes I've taken, and while they were stressful and a lot of hard work, I'm glad I worked through them and would do it again. If ME isn't bad enough, I also decided to start a combined degree with my MBA (although Tony might disapprove). Last night was the first chance I had to sleep in about 48 hours. It is a TON of work, but I know that it will be worth it in the end.

 

If you really don't feel like being an engineer, don't. There are many other degrees out there, do something you can see yourself doing for the next 50+ years.

[josh817]

Nick, I hear Cal. 2 is the worst of the three. From what I've seen in the high school course, for some reason it is. Cal. 3 I've heard was either the same level or easier than Cal. 1. I'm curious what UTA counts as fail rate. You and I were in the same class my first semester and we saw how by the time the drop date came, half the class was gone. Remember, we went from having a seat at the back to having a seat in the middle. Of those people, I want to know who passed and if the people who dropped counted as a fail. You passed. How long did you spend preparing for those tests?

 

Granted my first semester I was screwing around way too much and that dictates my grades. I should have gotten Calc. 1 but I didn't. I don't mind that, its not my biggest problem. I already said they offer lots of opportunities to get help if you needed it. Just a stupid freshman. Depending on how this goes... I probably won't change my major until next year. This way I can get on track with people entering the degree plan. They set up your degree plan/schedule because some classes are only in the fall or spring. That means I have spring semester to take classes that either go towards the direction I want or boost my GPA. I was honestly thinking about maybe doing a welding course or something. Obviously something that I like doing, maybe do a personal project, and is an easy A-B. I know some of my dads friends go to the community college every semester to a painters class because they get to use their paint booth, only need to buy supplies. There's this 70 year old guy who's been going back for 10 years. Helped him out a lot when his bath rub Porsche in CVAR flipped and burned.

 

I think perhaps if I go into a different degree and take the extra step to go to graduate school I can look to be as useful or prestigious to an employer as an engineer. Do you have to do graduate school for the degree you have your bachelors in? A change in majors would call for action to be taken to participate on campus and around the community so I look like an outstanding citizen compared to Jo Shmo who has nothing, I think.

 

Also note, I think UTA has a limit to how many times you can drop a class. I think its 6 times, plus they allow for 10 credit hours for "grade exclusion" which means its not in your GPA but employers and other school will still see it. I have used 4 credit hours to exclude Calculus. Only problem is that they split your GPA into 3 sections: Engineering courses, Math + Science + English, and Overall GPA. These 3 numbers must be above like a 2.0 or something. I'm below on Math + Science + English... My grade exclusion didn't help because I made a D in physics and two C's in English, but they're only 3 credits compared to 4 for physics. Last semester when I was first on probation I made 1 C and 3 B's. I thought I would be out of probation but because I didn't take any math or science courses, that GPA didn't change. That's why this chemistry means so much to me. I have like a 1.7-whatever for that GPA. All I need is a C to pull me out of probation but if I get a D or fail, its a step back.

 

I can persevere but knowing there is an obvious limitation to how many times you can run away, I don't want to use up all my chances and then just get destroyed when I really need them. Yet another reason to go to community college so if you don't do well it doesn't transfer.

 

I'm happier now that I've talked this out. Having all these things in my head was really spinning me around. It didn't help at all for my Chem. studying, couldn't get any sleep. Now that I have it all typed out I can sleep and come back the next day to review my thoughts and organize.

 

Thanks guys.

Edited October 27, 2010 by josh817

[datsun723]

Man...reading all this makes me glad to be a PR and COM major

 

GL Josh, I know you'll figure it out. I've had friends that were Bio and Chem majors that switched around to different sciences. I wish I had gone to CC before a 4 year just to save money and maybe look into different options so it really is NOT a bad route to take. I think if anything it'd be a one step back but two forward kind of deal. It's just a different path.

 

You got this dude!

[BLOZ UP]

If I had failed or received a D in Cal 1 more time, that last time, I would have been required to change majors to a non-Engineering one. You can only repeat any single class 3 times in Engineering. That, and you can only drop 6 classes as well. I used the grade exclusion on my first Cal 1 attempt where I received an F, and my GPA went from 2.2 something to a 2.8, I intend to use it on the D I received as well. That puts me at 8/10 credits used for grade exclusion, but it will probably get me close to or beyond a 3.0 (yay me).

 

I did at least one of the practice tests each time. Although my grade varied wildly. I got a 72 or something on the first one, a 92 on the second, and a 75 on the third. My final grade was a 60. The finals were always extremely hard. However, I still didn't complete all the homework, which would have helped. If there is one thing I am sure of now, is that to get math, you have to do problems, do problems, do problems.

 

Now that I think about it, the Cal class we had together, I received a D. The one I am talking about in the above paragraph was the next time I took it. Mr. Smith decided not to take up homework that time. His rules for homework were ridiculous. There's no excuse for requiring students to write out the problems, and make up some sentence for something that requires a purely mathematical solution. Physics, I can understand, but Math no. Unless it's a word problem.

Edited October 27, 2010 by BLOZ UP

[josh817]

Oh I thought you passed the 2009 fall Cal we had. You had taken it once before, so that was your second time.

[Michael]

The starting salary in aerospace engineering has some dependency on the prestige of the school, but an even greater dependency on your grades and overall resume. A 3.8 from a minor state school is more attractive to employers than a 2.8 from MIT or Caltech. After the first 3-5 years of employment (or graduate school), your undergraduate record is almost irrelevant.

 

College does have a responsibility to adequately train the next generation of professionals, and that includes, in part, weeding out those who are clearly unwilling or unable to perform. But this is not eugenics or the Olympic trials. School is not easy, but it should not be torture. The professors are not concentration camp guards, signing thumbs up or thumbs down on who lives or dies.

 

Look, the whole point of civilization is that we come together to specialize, to assist one another, to train the next generation and to nurture the transfer of ideas. It is not a tournament ladder, where “losers†are systematically culled for the improvement of the breed. It is just utterly asinine to suggest that college ought to be some sort of Darwinian machine for extirpation of the unfit.

 

There are still public high schools in America that offer a rigorous education and thorough preparation for college. I was not in the highest elite of my high school graduating class, yet I found no difficulty in college and was fortunate in using AP credit to jump into the upper-level classes. I found no palpable gaps in my knowledge, relative to that of my peers. Of course, that was just the book-knowledge. Street-smart knowledge, human relations, that sort of thing – oh boy, that was a tawdry disaster.

 

The “real world†is actually in many regards more relaxed and more tolerant than college. It is difficult to fake one’s way through demanding courses, but in the “real worldâ€, presentation (good writing skill, good interpersonal skills) are at least as important as fundamental knowledge, technical acumen or math aptitude. Generalists suffer in engineering school, but thrive in the workplace. The American work culture rewards “big picture†planning and “visionâ€, while comparatively denigrating the slide-rule and punch-card set. Engineers rise in the hierarchy not because they’re great engineers, but because they are deft communicators and resourceful planners. To be sure, they can not be outright incompetent – but the stands for that are quite modest.

 

Engineering is a little weird because it is both undergraduate education and professional training. Medical doctors, lawyers and the like are required to have postgraduate training, while engineers can and generally do practice as professionals with only a BSE. So from the academic viewpoint, there is a tension in what to teach: “how†to think, or “what†to think? My view is that engineering school has the primary objective of teaching students how to absorb information, how to study on their own from textbooks and the available literature, and most importantly, how to use intuition rather than calculation to arrive at reasonable estimates about physical problems. So there it is, in the proverbial nutshell: you go to engineering school to hone your engineering intuition.

 

Where I think that much of the present controversy stems, is from the demographic self-selection of the readership of HybridZ. Who modifies old cars? Folks with hands-on skills and the mechanic’s acumen – and not necessarily “book smartsâ€. We can’t be experts in all things. And normally the folks who are expert with the welder and the drill press are not expert with the calculus book. There are of course some brilliant exceptions, but you see my overall point… there is the sliderule engineering and then there is the lathe and anvil engineering. HybridZ, to a large point, caters to the latter. Now when people reach a level of hands-on mechanical skill where they are genuine innovators and not merely wrench-turners, this leads them to the theory side of engineering. And sometimes that turn of events is not entirely favorable. Unfortunately, engineering education begins with the theory as a point of departure, and only later circles back to the hands-on stuff. Graduate school in engineering can be very hands-on… almost like shop-lab. But to get there, you have to slog through the math. So I say again, if you have the genuine motivation for engineering, suffer through the “weeding†period and emerge on the sunnier side. But if engineering was a passing fad, drop it to stop the suffering.

 

As for what I do… perhaps it is better not to delve into personal details on the internet, but in sum, I work in a research lab in the public sector. My field is the aerodynamics of small unmanned air vehicles, with focus on the physics of lift and drag. I run a facility called a water tunnel (like a wind tunnel, but uses water) equipped with various force measurement and speed measurement devices. Experiments include “forced oscillationsâ€, where models (such as wings) are moved through prescribed trajectories while the flowfield and resulting forces are measured, and then compared with theoretical and computational models. That’s the in-house research part of my job. I mentor several junior engineers who do various calculations and operate some of the lab equipment. Another part of my job is writing proposals, reviewing other people’s proposals, advising decision makers on what to fund and what to plan in future research budgets. I write papers in the professional literature (principally in the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, or AIAA). I collaborate with professors from several universities and with colleagues from other public-sector labs. I am also involved in occasional flight test and wind tunnel test projects, but more as a planner and evaluator than as the test operator. In all, most of my work involves reading, writing, speaking and generating conceptual ideas – rather than doing math or physics. But, I rely on the intuition build in college and grad school, without which it would have been impossible to make the planning decisions or engineering estimates. Essentially, I get paid for exercising that intuition and for conveying my ideas in what’s hopefully a cogent and persuasive manner. Oh, and then there’s the paperwork!

[cygnusx1]

Michael, so you must know Dr. Drela then, or at least his work?

[Tony D]

"The professors are not concentration camp guards, signing thumbs up or thumbs down on who lives or dies."

 

LOL

 

"My experience appears different!"

 

ROMAFLOL!

[josh817]

I can't figure out if you're ahving a good time or just trolling, Tony.

[Tony D]

Actually, last evening I was sitting in my room with another engineer who works in our R&D section, and was reading your original post outlound and I basically 'channelled' him on the first post.

 

To be honest when we went to Wal-Mart he actually (and this is the truth) picked up a package of panty shields and said something about giving them to 'that whining kid on that internet post you were reading me earlier tonight'!

 

The LOL at the concentration camp guards comment was me. I found that funny as hell. There was a point where I had drawn a cartoon of someone with an "Arbiet Macht Frei" sign in the background as an overlooked charge digillently applied himself in his research time after class...the caption being 'why does this guy study so hard? Is Prof X really that bad?'

 

Remember, I had a high school shop teacher that THREW things at you if you asked a stupid question. And his contention was that there IS a such thing as a stupid question: the one you don't put enough thought into YOURSELF before you ask!

 

I have to say, even though there were trials...afterwards I have not failed at any task assigned to me. Either I'm classically selecting easy assignments and taskings, or I was well prepared by classes and practical training. I can not say 'school was easy' after high school. It did take all my attention.

 

Actually that is really what is going on, some people don't know how to focus their attention. Fear is a great motivator. Some of this isn't applicable later on, but the concept of focus and application of all energies in a singular direction IS something that will pay off no matter what you do.

 

And the business knocks were mainly due to many of the guys I knew who 'went to the dark side'---a good guy I know at a major competitor who was working towards his BSMET, and though he was hauling a 3.8+ GPA, just changed to business management in his 3rd year. Why? Because in his exact words: "I looked at what I was going to make, and it didn't make any sense. I'm busting my balls and won't get $80K. If get a business degree with what I already have (AA in MET, along with 10 years in the engineering field) and I can start at $100K+ as a manager."

 

At least he was honest. And he was right. If he'd followed the engineering goal he would be overworked in a cubie doing aerodynamic profiling or something on turbine blades. Instead he's a manager making six figures and he's done with school witohut nightmares. The change was 'like night and day, it was a breeze!'

 

I worked with too many guys who had no engineering background and were souless MBA's with nothing more on their mind than their next 90 day performance bonus made on the backs of people like me who were in the field billing hours and providing something to the customer of value. If that happens, no trickery is needed to provide value for shareholders, the profits will come, and the dividends will follow.

 

I watched a whiz-kid (my age, actually) throw away $12 million annually in service work to try and make a 'no touch' parts business. A pure pass-through mark it up and profit venture. The business technically 'grew'... and the service work was given away, another local business started up with 'overhead he eliminated' to provide services to the customers he didn't care about. And the company, while looking great on paper, failed when the house of cards fell. But he got his bonuses. He got a 'Best place to work in XXXX XXXXXXXX' gold star on his resume, while our engineering displaced former service manager and salesment and technicians.... they got a $12,000,000 GRANT for small business development from the state of XXXXXXXX. They used that to build one nice damn building/shop/inventory stockroom. As opposed to the old Tobacco Drying Barn we were working out of... This guy actually told Katrina Victims who bought used equipment from our company 'you bought used equipment, what do you expect?' Answer: I expect the MFer to at least RUN! Talk about destroy a company reputation. All about the money.

 

And that brings me full circle on my digression to the money. You already have numbers in mind. Expectations. Most younger guys are all about the money. There are more important things. Be open to the fact that poor is not necessarily a bad thing if you are happy doing what you do.

[josh817]

The price range I mentioned isn't that high in my eyes. I fully expect to start in the 30's range and eventually/hopefully work up to the figures I said. Obviously I want to be able to make enough to support myself and any future family I have. I don't see it as being a greedy person, I just see it as pick a field that you enjoy with the best pay. I never said I wanted to torture myself to make a lot. I entered college as and engineering degree for the money, yes, and thinking its something I want to do, now I see its not up my alley and I'd be more than willing to cut that paycheck in half or whatever the difference is and do something I like.

 

I refuse to be like my girlfriends parents where they are happy as can be, but they're in an endless pit of financial... situations. Her mom runs her own designer business. A lady says I want a couch reupholstered. Her mom does the job, lady says she doesn't like the material. At this point I would say well you picked the materials so you owe me this and if you'd like to change it, I'll do it for you but not for free. Instead her mom says she will take the couch back and eat the cost of the it all, with money they don't have. Her reasoning was she will "give it to God". Its not my place to be nosing around their business, but I'm not going to be a bliss soul and be in the gutter.

 

I'm not going to lie, money is always nice to have, as well as your sanity. It would be unrealistic of me to say I'm not worried about the money.

 

I figure engineering is pretty high ranking, you all said graduating as an engineer says something about you. Just the fact that you made it through. However, if I can do something I like, and I'll keep referring to accounting but I wouldn't know for sure... Major in business, minor in a general science. Makes me a well rounded individual, get my graduates degree maybe, come out with hopefully something higher than the X GPA from a bachelors in engineering. The little people in my head tell me this will level you out with those who have an engineering degree, but obviously two different fields.

 

By the way news flash:

Chemistry For Engineers test 2 grades were released today. Class average was in the 50's. His excuse was "you only need a C to get through this class, so these grades are good". Such is life.

 

 

Also Tony, what was your goal when you decided to read that out loud to your friend? I don't necessarily appreciate you making a joke out me or my situation, although its uplifting on a very minuscule level. My words to anyone who say "back in my day they paddled me"... its not your day anymore, its my day and in my day some of those things don't happen. Things are different and maybe classes are easier, maybe they're harder. I wouldn't know. So, we can all waste time and make stupid comments like your colleague in Walmart or we can be constructive and steer the confused person in the right direction.

If you're pissed at me about something in another thread, leave the red mist there. This is a new thread, start out clean and fresh. Regardless, both of your bost have been constructive and I appreciate that. Thank you.

Edited October 28, 2010 by josh817

[Drax240z]

A different perspective from a completely different program.

 

Background, I went through the same, got my ME degree in 2003. Been in the workforce since then. P.Eng. now.

 

I breezed through highschool (but enjoyed it somewhat), scored a 5 on the AP exam, wrote a perfect provincial math/calculus 12 exam. 1st year calculus was insulting to me, (I really should have used the AP credit) but I ended up with a couple of A+'s to pad the GPA. (I'd need that later!) Either you know it or you don't, and I knew it inside and out. I don't know the specifics of your class, but if you know the subject matter that well it shouldn't be a problem. If you don't, learn it. It's ok to prioritize it in front of other classes, that's what the real world is all about and that's likely what you are really being tested on. Time management and prioritization.

 

Word of advice, find an extra curricular club to join and get into it. Yes it's more work (I was doing about 100 hours a week of school related work), but you get a peer group trying to do the exact same thing and you learn a lot from that peer group. How to prioritize, how to think critically on the work you are doing, how to be efficient. For example, we had weekly mechanisms assignments that would take upwards of 20 hours a week, and they were worth 1% of our final grade. Is it really worth putting in 20 hours for that assignment before getting the other stuff (that is worth more) completed? I thought I had to do it all, you'll learn a valuable lesson there.

 

FSAE was my drug of choice, and helped me apply a lot of things I'd learned in school. But one thing I didn't expect, it FORCED me to complete my degree. I wouldn't have completed it without that project. I was too damn interested in building those cars, and not in my school work. But one fed the other, and the group of people in the FSAE program was tight-knit, and we were in a lot of classes together. They helped me learn how to prioritize rather than doing it all.

 

Fast forward to my working career. Not going to tell you what I make. However, out of school I started at 41K. I worked hard, and was at 51K in 2 years. Switched jobs, and have made substantial improvements to my situation since then. Now I'm hiring engineers as part of MY team.

 

Tony touched on it, if you have a head for business... they love to make engineers into managers. If you think you want to do technical all your life, that is an option as well. I believe an engineering degree is the most versatile degree you can have. You learn how to prioritize and how to deal with stress. That's a great leap ahead in the work place.

 

If you aren't committed to 80+ hours a week, you should find a way to make it work without forcing the issue though. Getting kicked out can really throw a wrench into things.

 

Also Tony, what was your goal when you decided to read that out loud to your friend? I don't necessarily appreciate you making a joke out me or my situation, although its uplifting on a very minuscule level. My words to anyone who say "back in my day they paddled me"... its not your day anymore, its my day and in my day some of those things don't happen. Things are different and maybe classes are easier, maybe they're harder. I wouldn't know. So, we can all waste time and make stupid comments like your colleague in Walmart or we can be constructive and steer the confused person in the right direction.

 

Hate to tell you this, but you've put it on the internet and its fair game. Take it in stride.

[josh817]

When I go to my adviser today I am going to ask him:

1)Does it get any better after these weed outs, I've said this before and I've read a lot of mixed responses

2)How many classes can I take at TCC. One thing I didn't know is they will allow Cal 1 and 2 at TCC but not 3. The kid who told me that said he appealed his Cal 3. When the adviser said you can't bring Cal 3 in and the student said fine I'll appeal it, the adviser was like..... we've never had anyone appeal it in. Fact of the matter is the option is there, they won't tell you about it.

 

As you can see I'm teeter-tottering between changing majors. When I was typing the last post an hour ago I was for sure going to change. Typing this, now I'm thinking I can bypass weed outs and get into that program. I don't know if its safe, going in without friends to do group work. Joining a club would be nice. I guess I would just take a light load each semester so I have time for a club. That's the only other way I can see things working. Other option is to just study all day long like some of you have said.

 

I just called up my dad and said I may be changing my major. Judging by his tone of voice, he highly objects. His approval on how I do things is very important to me but part of me feels that he has let me down the past couple of years so his approval shouldn't matter I guess. He told me to call him tonight or come over when he gets home so we can "talk about this".

 

I need to think about this. If I'm changing majors, I may want to at least get started working on it next semester rather than next fall. Problem is I don't know what to change to, don't know if I want to change, and if I stay with engineering then I'm basically all out of classes to take until I get Cal 1 done.

 

Here I have marked in red everything that I have done. When I look at this, I don't get a gut sinking feeling... I think I may be misleading myself though:

 

The worst thing about this is that I should trust my own instinct but I don't. I tell myself one thing and then... myself says don't listen to me... I wonder if I can do a business major with an engineering minor but I don't think so. Engineering seems like you either do the full program or not do it at all.

Edited October 28, 2010 by josh817

[DrSideways]

This sounds mighty familiar to me. I went to NCSU and got herded like that. I felt just like you do. You need a end game goal. Like John said it may pay to speak with some upper class folks to see what the end game looks like.

 

You must also understand that the first two whole years are a weeding out process. Calculus is the engineering school's English 101. All you get are papers with red ink all over them. Weed, weed, weed...

 

Also understand that you are a customer. As such you should study the course of study from first Freshman class to your last Senior class. My daughter graduated UNC-Chapelhill in '09. The first semester during her spare time she studied the university catalog. She planned out the rest of her time there. When she got into a class where the Professor was a **** she dropped it. She would say there was no way some egotistical moron was going to mess up her GPA. She also takes things very seriously. Don't know where she got that from...

 

Before she left for the first semester I told her about the university trap. They want you there for five years. They will "advise" you as you go along and then when you "have to have" that last class that only one professor teaches he/she is on sabbatical. That is where the you are a customer fact comes in.

 

That being said... are you doing your job? Are you treating college like a job? I mean getting there on campus at 8:00am and staying there, doing work until 5:00pm or until it is done. By being done, I don't mean leaving at 2:00pm just because you think you are done. If you can approach this school or your next course of study in this fashion the work will come easier and the grades will be better. Another aspect is that when you leave school you are pretty much done.

 

There are folks who would say you are there for social engagement. That is fine, but you won't get a job by your list of buddies. I can understand the "who you know" program, but when the rubber meets the road your grades, aptitude, and attitude are what win the day.

 

Now I did not stick it out at NCSU in hindsight I wish I had. I did find a school where I could fit and things came easier for me. Even though I did not end up staying in that profession I got a degree with honors. That put the family to rest. I also used the knowledge gained from then on. Remember.... your family won't be living your life for you. You must find your niche and work it.

 

One more thing.... does a 90% failure rate for a particular class...ongoing over time reflect on the students, or the instructors? Fair question indeed. Maybe a five year plan??

 

Hope that helped. No matter what you decide, get after it and treat school as a job. Do year long studies if you can. I think the French get six weeks off in the summer. Look what that is getting them.

 

Alan

[Tony D]

"Also Tony, what was your goal when you decided to read that out loud to your friend? I don't necessarily appreciate you making a joke out me or my situation, although its uplifting on a very minuscule level. My words to anyone who say "back in my day they paddled me"... its not your day anymore, its my day and in my day some of those things don't happen."

 

Uh, this is a classic case of someone doing something and then getting self concious about it in retrospect. And you single ME out for reading it out loud. As if putting it on the internet is some solemn pristine place where privacy and personal discretion is the watchword. Give me a break!

 

At least I was HONEST about what I did, and what comments were received. I know there are FAR more people who feel the same way about it upon reading your 'whining lament'...

 

I was a big 'don't give me "Iustas" dude!' kinda guy. I didn't care what guys USED to do when they were my age blah blah blah. Usually when it came to people making ignorant commentary about things which are UNSAFE.

 

In your day you don't WANT things to happen. But I'll remind you my classes were hard as hell, and I passed. I am not the one failing. Consider that you simply aren't up to it. I didn't whine about it, I knuckled down and passed.

 

"I have been there" but you don't like it because I'm not a touchy-feely in-touch with my female talk about it side. I preferred then, and prefer now not to whine and lament my position in life. Instead I choose to do something about it, as it's MY business.

 

Soon as you put it out there for comment, you loose the right to whine about what someone thinks about your whining!

[Tony D]

Speaking of how it was for older generations...I concede I didn't have it as bad as these guys:

Track 21 Monty Python the Final Rip Off Disc 1 (25-03-2009 14-41-59).mp3

Edited October 28, 2010 by Tony D

[DrSideways]

 

Look, the whole point of civilization is that we come together to specialize, to assist one another, to train the next generation and to nurture the transfer of ideas. It is not a tournament ladder, where “losers†are systematically culled for the improvement of the breed. It is just utterly asinine to suggest that college ought to be some sort of Darwinian machine for extirpation of the unfit.

 

 

Over time I think you will find that the strongest and smartest do much better. The object of the exercise is not to survive. The object is to be better than the other guy. It is to invent something revolutionary...first, or at least put it into action first. Think of Bill Gates.

 

I would suggest that university study most certainly is a "tournament ladder". Why do you think they award a Valedictorian?

 

Competition is what the human race is all about. They don't call it a "race" for nothing. Maybe some universities do want to "weed out" less than spectacular performers. Is that bad? I would submit not. Other schools would like you to "feel" good. I like to "feel" good too. But my $$ doesn't come from "feeling" good. It comes with making the right decisions at the right time. If I make the wrong one and stick with it I pay real $$ immediately.

 

The world did not come from cave men that wanted to bring home less meat and have less women. Nor was ther someone in the forest waiting to make them "feel" good about what they were doing which was killing things.

 

Alan

[josh817]

The whole argument is moot, Tony. This wasn't whining, this was explaining my situation and asking others, is this normal, do I just suck at it and need to look elsewhere, is it the school and not me. I clearly stated that there are so many variables going on right now and I only have so many chances to screw up.

 

Likewise, it seems like lately every thread I make, you come in and you're helpful at first and then you start complaining about how you don't like someones mindset, how someone is mistaken, or how the system is all wrong despite your efforts of being a white night. We can go back and forth all day. I'm not going to be humble to you about this, regardless of the wondrous things you have done in your years. In one thread you said to be humble to your elders because its true they known more than I do. I absolutely agree. Fact is, at this point you aren't helping and despite what you have been saying, I have said thank you for the words that had value to them. I'll admit, that a lot of the threads where you come in, you shut me down, you have a good argument and it makes sense to me and we stop everything and let it die, lesson learned. This is not one of those threads.

 

This was posted on the internet, I get it, its public. I could care less if you read it out loud, read it on the toilet, whatever. My question to you was WHY did you read it, knowing the engineer was behind you. WHAT response were you looking for. If you were looking for "this guy is a big ****** and he needs to get his panties out of a wad [insert laughing here]" then clearly you were making a joke. If you were reading it out loud with the intentions of maybe this guy has some words of advise, like everyone else here has put in; something along the lines of "go to the alumni and see what their job entails", then that's fine and thank you, again. I don't mind being made fun of and poked at. It gave me a little chuckle at my own expense. But if your intentions were to seriously make a joke out of me then not cool. Sure, my fault for posting on the internet but your fault for letting yourself, a man with such high moral values (remember how you taught me that one), do something so uncouth. I may joke about you and we all have a "har har very funny" moment, but if someone were to ask for a referral, I'd say you. I have high regards for you.

 

I don't know what sort of life you lived and how your brain works but we are two different people and we don't have the same mindset. It would be wonderful if you could get off that horse of yours thinking you were sent down from the heavens, and start responding as if you were in my shoes. Put yourself where I am now, so you can go "you need to figure out what you like and if this isn't it then leave" rather than being like "IN MY DAY I JUST KNUCKLED DOWN" <--- Does it pertain to my situation? What's you're degree? In all the wisdom filled years have you been in this situation? Did you pick the right degree for you the first time so when you "knuckled down" you knew you just had to get over it for the best? Or was it like I am where, yah I could knuckle down but it could just be I hate this and don't want my career in it, so knuckling down would just make my situation worse. As you can see, you're tough it out story, is not helpful.

 

Indeed you could be an elder, a wise man, a wizard, whatever you want to call yourself, I'd like to say a man with experience. I could be humble to you and just say Tony you're so right, and just end it there, but that's not how this thread is going to work. I firmly stand on saying, you are not being helpful as of right now, you are now here for the soul purpose of stirring things up. You could sit there and maintain your "I have years of experience" reasoning but lets face it, you're a human, I'm a human, we do some things wrong. Just because you're old and smart doesn't mean you're perfect. You don't hit the age of 45 and say "well I've lived 45 years, I've had 45 years of mistakes and learning. It is now inconceivable for me to be wrong."

 

Would you like to hear a story from me or is it irrelevant because I'm only 20 years old? I'll tell you anyway. I once asked my grandfather, Poppy, if he was a ladies man and how he did it. He proceeded to tell everyone at the dinner table about how he would drive in town and knock up a ton of girls because "all the guys knew they were easy" there. We stopped him midway, so we didn't have to hear more. Were we wrong in doing that? Should we have let him continue because he is our elder and he knows all? There are two main points in that story.

 

-Firstly there is a time and a place for everything, that's an easy concept and we all know this. Your gallivanting doesn't belong in a thread that has to do with someone who is at a confusing point in their life. You wouldn't gallivant in JSM's thread a while ago about how he was having a hard time. You wouldn't say "you're whining too much JSM" and go around talking with your colleagues, making jokes saying he needs some panty protectors because of what he's going through. You could but you wouldn't because you're better than that.

-Secondly, he may have been answering my question and giving me some words of advise in a very crude way, but that doesn't mean in helps me at all. Telling everyone that you had sex with multiple women on the weekends when you went into town with your buddies, does not help. Amusing, but a moot point.

 

You're taking advantage of the "I'm an elder" thing, you're milking that cow to the fullest extent. It wore out its welcome when it wasn't constructive anymore. I may be young and you guys may feel like whatever I say doesn't matter, but old men must be humble to a certain extent themselves. I admire your honesty and bluntness on the situation and I would much rather have that then a load of misleading ****, however I think the line has been crossed. I KNOW that you know the difference between rude context and an honest/blunt context.

Example: I wouldn't say honey you look freaking fat, I'd say honey you look big (I don't recommend that at all lol). Honest and blunt but not rude.

 

So finally, I'm not the boss of things around here so I'm not even going to get into saying stop. I will however ask politely for you to contribute rather than cloud up the thread in back and forth arguments. Considering there is already enough confusion on what I should do and where to start, a clear and concise thread would be very helpful as you can imagine.

 

Thank you for your words of advise Tony. I take the knuckle down thing to heart and I will apply that but first I have to figure out what the right major is for me.

Edited October 28, 2010 by josh817