which engine for the track

[johnc]

Its degrading into a "my engine is better then your engine" thread. We've seen this many time before on HybridZ when a poster asks for opinions on which engine to choose for their swap. The admins have discussed banning this type of discussion before but we've held back.

 

IMHO, an engine choice is an emotional choice and efforts to turn it into a rational/logical choice are foolish, unless you are in some type of competitive race series. Again, IMHO, because its an emotional choice some folks feel the need to defend their own choice of an engine for their HybridZ. Arguments ensue about which engine is more powerful, which is more advanced, which is more "pure", etc. none of which has anything to do with a specific person's emotional response to a particular engine. There's no need for that here.

[flatline]

Thanks guys,

 

I'm not asking which engine is the best of all, just want a engine suitable for the track, so weight distribution is also important.

 

Don't really fancy a RB engine, just not my cup of tea, sorry.

 

I'm also in contact with someone offering a 20B engine from a Mazda.. Could be lots of fun.... choices choices.

 

My top list now is:

 

1. VQ35

2. 20B

3. AJP V8

4. 2JZ-GTE

5. SR20DET

[rsicard]

Its degrading into a "my engine is better then your engine" thread. We've seen this many time before on HybridZ when a poster asks for opinions on which engine to choose for their swap. The admins have discussed banning this type of discussion before but we've held back.

 

IMHO, an engine choice is an emotional choice and efforts to turn it into a rational/logical choice are foolish, unless you are in some type of competitive race series. Again, IMHO, because its an emotional choice some folks feel the need to defend their own choice of an engine for their HybridZ. Arguments ensue about which engine is more powerful, which is more advanced, which is more "pure", etc. none of which has anything to do with a specific person's emotional response to a particular engine. There's no need for that here.

 

John:

 

Emotions, not rational/logical decisions, are going to be involved in discussions. Cost, parts availability, population and least complexity should be the objective for selecting a reliable and powerful engine.

[kiwi303]

I'd switch the 2JZ on your list out for a TVR Speed Six...

[ovenfood]

Personally the 20B would be interesting and if I had 20k to use on my engine I think it would be worth looking into :>

 

http://www.viczcar.com/member-rides/matthew-clemeshas-20b-rotary-powered-73-240z

 

By the way you said you don't like US v8's what about Japanese v8's? VH45 or VK56 "could" work :> they sound nice and are used to power a few Japanese race cars :>

[Gollum]

He said in the first post he has 20k to spend on the car, not the engine. This might just be me, but it looks as though many of you, the OP included, needs a reality check on how much it costs to build some of these motors, especially to the 450+whp levels.

 

Personally, if I had 20k set aside for building a S30, only 5k would be in my budget for the engine. And 5k can get pretty thin when talking power plants. I'd want a motor that didn't need to be opened up to reach those power levels, came with a transmission up to the challenge to save costs. Also, if it were a boosted motor I'd want the longblock + trans to be less than half of my 5k budget to leave room for upgraded fuel system parts, intercooler, maybe larger turbo ect. One could also shoot for a motor that's larger displacement to begin with that can reach the desired power without boost. To do that on a reasonable budget it's going to be at least 5 liters though, which starts really limiting the options.

 

And just so we're clear, 450 wheel hp is nearly 550hp at the crank. That's a lot of power any way you slice it. So you're either going to need a BIG engine, like a large V8 with 350+cubes or you're going to need force induction.

 

The other thing that really complicates things is that the OP is in the netherlands and the engine options there are complete unknown to me, and I'm sure others on the forums. This makes the choice that much more difficult for us here to help with.

 

And as the wise JohnC pointed out. Engine choice is many times an emotional choice first and foremost. So asking for our help isn't usually productive unless we have a real problem to solve or a direction to go with the conversation. If we know we're just helping come up with ideas is one thing. If we're given options and asked to draw a pros and cons list is another. If you're just looking for people to agree with your choice is a completely different discussion entirely. These all revolve around the same topic, but without direction we'll just spiral needlessly.

 

 

But from what I've read in this thread. I think none of us known what the OP is really looking for, and I wonder if the OP does either. I mean no disrespect. I just wonder if we have no clue what we're doing here because the OP doesn't either. I've been in that spot, and in some ways am right now. It's ok not to know what direction you want to take. I have many ideas of what engine choices the OP has to choose from, but I'm going to wait until I actually know what the OP wants from this project, and how much is really going to be spent. Here's a sample list of questions I'd be looking to be answered:

 

1. What's the intended use of the car? (you said track car, but how often? Trailered there? Weekend racer? Once in blue moon, street other times? What class of racing?)

 

2. What's the budget for the driveline? (as I've said, if it were 20k for the car, I'd only spend 5k on the engine/trans. There's lots of other areas to look into for a track car)

 

3. What kind of power band is the person looking for? (some people like huge power under the curve the instant you hit the throttle, others like the mellow nature of an engine off boost)

 

4. Is the person asking doing the work themselves, or paying someone to do it? And what is their experience level?

 

5. The type of person the owner is. (this is something I try very hard to find out reading between the lines. Some people should have a V8, even against their own words, because of the type of person they car. Other personality types will much more enjoyment out of other options. Point being is that everyone is different and we all enjoy our cars for different reasons in different ways. Someone who wants to build a rat rot probably doesn't want a rotary in their rod, while someone building a MR2 probably doesn't want a V8)

 

Moat of these questions have been touched on, but I feel like we've only seen half answers to any of them. More complete knowledge would help some of us out with giving you advice.

[flatline]

^^

Thanks for the reply, know exaclty how hard it is to help me out here.

 

Just to clarify a few things.

 

1. My budget is €20.000, thats roughly $ 28000 (my bad)

2. Power output I'm after is 400-450 FWHP so NOT RWHP

3. Car will be streetlegal, but most of the time to drive it to the track. Some level of comfort would be appreciated... Will also use the stock dash, 2 seats etc

4. I will do most of the work myself, got a garage complete with all the bits and pieces to start a business myself

5. Because I already own a slightly tuned Viper GTS, I prefer a car with a turbo just because I also like the "push"

6. A turbo'd engine is not a must when there is an N/A engine available with better powerband and capable to achieve my power goals., hench the TVR V8

7. I just don't want a american V8 engine, not really liking the sound of it in a Datsun and its been before so many times, I rather take something a little bit more unique.

 

I don't think finding parts will be to difficult, lots of importing companies overhere and prices are OK.

 

Read a lot of info on HybridZ and by the looks of it, a 2JZ-GTE or SR20DET seems to be a "easy" way. Engines are also pretty cheap to buy in England.

 

I also have an broken 13B rx7 engine laying around, will see how that fits the enginebay of the datsun, its roughly the same as a 20B engine...

 

Choices choices choices........

[frank280zx]

Well Kees Seing your list and judging from availability of parts id say SR20 Talk to Dic k (haha if i write his name attached i get **** LOL) in Alphen aan de Rijn he builts nothing but SR's and Evo engines for racing

Since you will be using it in a 240 you can have the weight advantage (another thing that is important next to distribution), it all sits behind the front crossmember making it act allmost like a mid engined car.

With enough FG art you could build a ~1000kg track rocket.

I have to say that my car behaved completly diffrent when i was done with the V8 swap. due to the further back position alone (spring rates where of caster camber etc etc)

I bet that the weight reduction if you go the SR route, will be another thing that will ad some complexity in getting the car to handle right ( as all the known z formulas are out of the window then)

 

Anyhow IF that short list where my list SR20 .... haha or something Beamer

Edited May 3, 2011 by frank280zx

[frank280zx]

BTW rotarys fit the bay very nice and have also been done, you have tons of room to spare.. i just never really got their concept .. i love the sound though

 

I have tried the 'diffrent' approach with m60b40, but i found out there is reason why some swaps seem poular. An SR or 2JZ or V8 for that matter slip in so easy compared to a doubble overhead cam V8 in an s30 you just run out of room.. Not in the lenght but in the width.

So what is your stance on all the skandinavic m50b25 turbo BMW engines ? seems a very willing powerplant not ?

Edited May 3, 2011 by frank280zx

[Gollum]

The SR makes sense and has it's merits. From what I've seen I think it should hold those power levels with lots of stock parts still, which will help cost. The 2JZ will make that power with ease, and certainly makes sense if you want more passing power without changing gears. the RB25DET would fit the bill too. Would hold that power level while being almost completely stock like the 2JZ, it just comes down to cost where you find them, and your personal preference.

 

If you're up for something different, the VQ35DE is a great motor, and they regularly make 450+ to the wheels in 350Z's on the stock high compression pistons. I personally think that many people might find it too risky of a setup for longevity sake, but if you're looking for 450 FWHP the I'd call 400 WHP on a turbo'ed VQ quite "safe" as long as it's tuned well, which goes for ANY force induced motor.

 

350-500hp is right in the range that you have lots of motor options, but you definitely have to choose wisely still if you want to do it without breaking the bank. That being said though, almost any motor will get there with the aid of the turbo, so really it comes down to finding a motor that will hold the power without breaking, is available to you, is priced within reason for what it is, and the biggie - is something you like.

 

Here's a small list of what comes to mind that people have done that could reach your power goals with minimal effort and cost.

 

L28ET

VG30ET

VQ35DE(t)

Buick V6

2JZGTE

1JZGTE

7MGTE

RB25DET

RB26DET

SR20DET

KA24DET (a common alternative here since they're plentiful and next to free. Makes plenty of power still with a turbo)

13B (I'm not a huge fan, but if you like rotaries they're not a bad choice, just different)

 

 

I'm sure there's plenty of other options, but that's just skimming the top of what's popular. I did this just to show how many options there really are, and how easy it is to think of and find them.

[rsicard]

^^

Thanks for the reply, know exaclty how hard it is to help me out here.

 

Just to clarify a few things.

 

1. My budget is €20.000, thats roughly $ 28000 (my bad)

2. Power output I'm after is 400-450 FWHP so NOT RWHP

3. Car will be streetlegal, but most of the time to drive it to the track. Some level of comfort would be appreciated... Will also use the stock dash, 2 seats etc

4. I will do most of the work myself, got a garage complete with all the bits and pieces to start a business myself

5. Because I already own a slightly tuned Viper GTS, I prefer a car with a turbo just because I also like the "push"

6. A turbo'd engine is not a must when there is an N/A engine available with better powerband and capable to achieve my power goals., hench the TVR V8

7. I just don't want a american V8 engine, not really liking the sound of it in a Datsun and its been before so many times, I rather take something a little bit more unique.

 

I don't think finding parts will be to difficult, lots of importing companies overhere and prices are OK.

 

Read a lot of info on HybridZ and by the looks of it, a 2JZ-GTE or SR20DET seems to be a "easy" way. Engines are also pretty cheap to buy in England.

 

I also have an broken 13B rx7 engine laying around, will see how that fits the enginebay of the datsun, its roughly the same as a 20B engine...

 

Choices choices choices........

 

Trying to make 400-450 FWHP on 20K is going to be a real challenge assuming the body is in very good condition.

[Gollum]

Trying to make 400-450 FWHP on 20K is going to be a real challenge assuming the body is in very good condition.

 

Like I said to begin with, if the budget was 20k I'd use 5 of it for the engine/trans budget, which I think is a fair amount. And I think quite a few motors CAN make that much power within that budget. The KA24DET is one of them. We've seen people here make similar power for pretty stupid cheap prices. As long as you get your motor for cheap and do the conversion yourself you'll have plenty of funds to play with on the go fast bits. For example, let's look at a L28ET build up to reach 350 wheel HP, which is in the ballpark the OP is shooting for. People have made this power from these motors a variety of ways, but this should be an easy way to do it within the budget.

 

L28ET Motor ~ $500 (I actually paid just 250 for my last one, and in was in great shape)

Mounts ~ Free!

Trans ~ $100 (if it didn't come with the motor)

Wideband ~ $250 (LC-1+Gauge)

MSII ~ $450

Relay Board + Relay Cable for easy wiring ~ $170

Wiring Bundle ~ $50

Injectors ~ $300 (just found a set of 660cc supra injectors, flow matched, with plugs and new o-rings for $270 buy it now)

Fuel Rail ~ $100

Fuel Pressure Regulator ~ $60

240sx TB ~ $60

GT3076R or similar ~ $1000 (could spend half of this on a used holset or t3/t4 if penny pinching)

FMIC ~ $200 (or less really)

Intercooler Piping ~ $100

BOV ~ $50

Downpipe ~ $150

Exhaust ~ $300 (mandrel not required, but always a good idea)

Manual Boost Control ~ $50

 

That should be most of the list to get one started. That brings me to $3890. Still over 1k left over for tying up odds and ends. I'd bet that if you did this right you'd come in about $500 under my budget above, and you could then spend your $1.5k remaining getting a Z32 manual trans adapted on. You're going to have to add a clutch kit to the above budget anyways, might as well be on a trans that will hold the power reliably.

 

KA24DET is almost the identical budget, just differs a little here and there.

 

1JZ and 2JZ are completely different in than you're spending a lot more for the motor outright, but you can use all the OEM ECU and wiring harness, then just raise the boost and tune it.. Factory turbo is capable on those, and the injectors should be fine, possibly requiring an adjustable FPR or RRFPR.

 

RB25,26 is almost identical store as JZ motors above.

 

VG30ET is similar to L28ET in budget layout. These motors have the option of doing an EPROM emulator for the ECU, but in the end nearly costs what MSII costs. I like this option because it's a compact motor that sits back nice and far, plus it certainly has the bottom end for the power requirements, and comes with a much better tranny than the L28ET. And it's light.

 

 

 

But back onto the topic of the rest of the budget. rsicard - you right in that a 20k budget can be tight. But he stated it'll be a track purpose car that's also used on the street. I can see him easily reaching his budget as long as he's not planning on a full ground up restoration. Bead blasting the chassis on a rotisserie can easily eat money as it reveals more and more areas that need attending. But that being said there's plenty of people out there that have gotten by just fine on non-restored chassis. I'd say that as long as he had a quality cage installed that ties into the strut towers he can pour a good portion of his budget into suspension/brakes/wheels/tires and not worry too much about the chassis holding together as the cage should do it's job and keep a lot of the stress off the chassis.

 

I'd break it down something like this:

 

20k budget:

 

5k engine/trans

3k suspension

2k brakes

2k wheels/Tires

1.5k cage (too much? I don't know)

2k body (fiberglass parts, basic paint prep)

1k Interior (seats, steering wheel, harnesses, dash, etc)

2.5k Rear Diff (I'd go with a subie R180 + axles conversion as it's been seen done here on these forums. Worth every penny as CLSD R200 prices rise)

 

 

That puts us a 19k. Gives you some wiggle room as things go over budget, and if things are kept under control you've got money for odds and ends, like the $30 you'll spend on your throttle arrangement, the $20 you'll spend a 280ZX master cylinder, etc.

[frank280zx]

Trying to make 400-450 FWHP on 20K is going to be a real challenge assuming the body is in very good condition.

 

Eehm im under or arround 10 k and i make 533 RWHP ....and there is nothing wrong with my handling either

 

He will do most work himself that saves allot. the body he has is 95% solid as i have personally loaded it in SoCal it actually is the 260 that used to be Hectors cars ( the guy behind the 240 artwork of the BRE car)

 

See cars move arround the globe And his budget is 28K USD 20K Euro. On the other hand parts are more expensive over here, but i guess for a streetable weekend warrior that should cover it!

[frank280zx]

double post forget it

Edited May 5, 2011 by frank280zx

[Tony D]

What is your objection to cause shredding of this thread? People expressing themselves shows their level of knowledge and experience. So long as their is no nastiness. Please reply John.

 

 

I would disagree with that statement out-of-hand. Because someone has an opinion doesn't mean anything about their level of knowledge or experience. Especially on the interweb!

[frank280zx]

lol BTW Tony can sate for the car aswel

let me dig up some pictures here

[Gollum]

I think another thing about this discussion that can be a bit hard for some to understand as to why it could see the shed, is that HybridZ doesn't follow the typical "freedom of speech" american ideology in a sense. We're to stay off certain topics, and we're also to discuss all topics with a grown up perspective that's respectful of who's "house we're in" which is HybridZ.

 

It might be my opinion that we should all sell our Z cars with those ugly V8's and buy smart cars, but sharing that opinion even in just a mildly rude manner could land me in detention. And rightly so. Reading the rules that we all agreed to it makes perfect sense. We're all guests to a party here, and we want to keep it at civil as possible. If a thread like this gets into a "my opinion is better than yours" thread then it'll get canned. As JohnC touched on, engine choice is largely emotional, with most technical "reasons" really just being justifications for your feelings. It really is a touchy subject.

[bradyzq]

Being involved with Audis more than Datsuns lately, have you considered the 2.7T V6? They are great engines that can make 375HP at (all four of) the wheels with bolt-ons only. If you can find one that already has the upgraded K04 turbos on it, the only thing you would have to worry about is eliminating the DBW throttle body. Everything else is typical engine swap stuff.

 

Anyways, just another option, and a V6 could sit further back than other options (except maybe the 13B).

[rsicard]

Being involved with Audis more than Datsuns lately, have you considered the 2.7T V6? They are great engines that can make 375HP at (all four of) the wheels with bolt-ons only. If you can find one that already has the upgraded K04 turbos on it, the only thing you would have to worry about is eliminating the DBW throttle body. Everything else is typical engine swap stuff.

 

Anyways, just another option, and a V6 could sit further back than other options (except maybe the 13B).

 

There is one big drawback to the Audi V6 engine with Drive By Wire. That is the electronics for the drive-train. If the owner of the Datsun into which the Audi V6 is installed has considerable experience in electronics, embedded computer systems and Controller Area Networks (CAN) and he is a wiring guru then the swap is doable. Otherwise not. Using modern (exotic?) engines, be they made on shore or off shore, the persons swapping them need to be very knowledgeable in three different fields which is extremely rare.

[cockerstar]

My vote definitely goes for the 20B on this one