jakeshoe

Plus core charge and shipping.... I told you you get what you pay for... Look at the 200-4R competition parts on Chris's website. If you think Chris is expensive, look at PTS... http://www.ptsxtreme.com/ Go to online catalog, transmissions.

Mike, Let me pick apart BTO's description real quick... LOL "In order to raise performance above the Level Two units, the input shaft/drum and sun shell assembly strength must be addressed. Anyone who has built serious Th-2004R Transmissions has, at some time experienced failure of one or more of these components. Our Level Two Transmissions parts have proven to be reliable to the torque levels described in Level Two and our return rate demonstrates this. We experience less than 1% failure on our Level Two units. Once you get into these engine torque and horsepower levels above the Level Two Transmissions, the input shaft to drum connection point becomes prone to fracture and the spline section will start ripping off the sun shell. Our Level Three Transmissions have the following parts added for increased strength and reliability above 450 hp and 450 ft/lbs. of torque. These components are specifically engineered to help prevent breakage in applications with exceptionally stout motors. Details of these parts can be seen at http://www.extreme-duty.com. While the late model factory sun shells are definitely a big improvement, they are certainly not up to the hard core use that our sun shells are built for. Our Level Three Transmission includes the following upgrades from Level Two: Heavy duty input shaft/drum assembly, the reinforced sun shell package and fourth gear servo. These parts will live at horsepower and torque levels over 60% greater than the stock components are able to tolerate!" OK, First the stock hardened sun shell isn't an issue, it has been proven reliable in the GN's down into the 9 second range. Nothing fancy. It's a $15-20 part... The stock late model input shaft is generally consider good to the 500-600 lb ft mark. There is no 4th gear servo for a 200-4R... LOL There is a 2nd gear servo, but not a fourth servo. I think BTO has the 700 confused with the 200... The input shaft/drum assembly is a 700 issue, not a 200 issue. The 200 input shaft drives a totally self contained overdrive planetary set, that then drives the forward drum. It is nothing like the aluminum input drum on a 700. I bet they simply used their 700 description for the 200 also... That builds lots of confidence...

I wouldn't consider BTO as a major reputable builder for the 200-4R's, just so you know. I'm sure there Stage 1's are pretty normal and comparable to all, but anything above that and I doubt it has the necessary parts.

Mike, It depends on what your power plans are with this trans. I build racing GM automatic transmissions and would say I am probably more informed than most builders on the 200-4R. I am a fan of the 200-4R for several reasons. First and most of all, it is an easy retrofit in place of a short tailshaft TH350, Powerglide, or even most of the GM 3 and 4 speed manuals due to it's length and spline count. It has a better gear spread than a 700R4, and it has aftermarket parts availability that the 700 simply doesn't have. Although that may seem odd, as the 700 is a more popular swap due to it being a more plentiful unit to find cores. The Buick GN crowd has helped the 200-4R market. That said, The 200 has a few weaknesses that must be addressed or it will be short lived in even a mild combo. First these are items I consider mandatory for even a "stock" rebuild. I would not even consider building a trans for a customer without these parts, even for a stock application. All new frictions, steels, seals. 10 or 13 vane pump. Alto Red 2nd gear band. Alto Red direct clutches. 86-87 GN servo, or better yet a billet Super Servo. Hardened sun shell and pump stator (used on stock later model units) Upgraded TV boost valves. Valve body kit. I use a modified Transgo kit, however I have (with input from other builders) refined this method so that it works very well. Deep pan is preferred but it will hang too low in a Z car, so a stock pan with a custom filter/pickup, and some other mods to control oil flow in the pan on hard acceleration. The above build techniques will make the trans live to the 350 HP/TQ level. To make it live at higher power levels, it will need the direct clutches dual fed, a billet forward drum, and a 3 clutch overdrive setup as well as a few other minor internal mods. There are only two vendors who sell a GOOD forward drum, they are Chris at CKPerformance (I buy from him for my builds) and Bruce at PTS. I don't buy Bruce's products. With all the above mods, I feel the 200-4R is pretty safe to the 600-650 HP/TQ level. Some feel it is good to above that level, however I believe for the cost of all the billet internal parts needed above the ~600 hp/tq level, a customer is better served with a different trans. I quoted a guy to build the 350 hp/tq trans about a week ago, $1200. Add about $500 more for the billet drum and other mods. Also of note is that the GN, and Monte SS core trans have a much better valve body and the cores command approximately $400-600 per trans. The valve body and governor combo allows a much better part and WOT shift placement. If you try to use a "generic" valve body, you will have low rpm shifts. The governor can be modded to achieve higher shift RPM but it is a trial and error ordeal and requires alot of patience, trans fluid, and pan removal... Not fun for most guys. So $400 for a core, $1200-1700 for a build, plus converter, and install. Very easy to get $2500 into a decent 200-4R. My best word of advice is to truly understand on the 200-4R, you DO get what you pay for. There are no shortcuts. I use Chris for 200-4R parts and I would also not hesitate to recommend him for a complete unit for someone looking. In TX there is only one other name that comes to mind I would trust for a 200-4R and that is Mike Kurtz.

Les, I'm not up on the MegaSquirt but about a year ago they were working on a MegaShift add on. I think it has become a more universal deal, but soem have used it to control trans. I probably have any PWM info you need to control the trans on hand here (literally less than a foot away) in my tech literature. The MEgaSquirt BB would likely also have it. Anyway, there is a kit to provide full manual shifts for the 4L80E without a controller and it uses a vacuum modulator to control line pressure instead of the Electronic pressure control solenoid. The EPC is removed and replaced with the modulator. This is available for both the 4L80 and 4L60E. The electronics of a trans aren't overly complex, not nearly as complex as the engine control. A trans controller needs RPM signal, throttle position signal, output shaft signal, and Park/N/Drive to operate. Internally they have a switch and temp sensor, that measures the fluid temp, and has small individual pressure switches that let the controller know what circuits have pressure and which don't. They also have the two shift solenoids that actually force the shift, and the EPC solenoid to control line pressure. They then have the torque converter control solenoid which is now pulse width modulated so that it doesn't act so much as an on/off, but can control the apply rate of the converter clutch so it doesn't feel like an additional shift. I actually prefer a more firm TCC engagment and for reliability feel it shouldn't be "slipped", but it should also have a controlled engagement, but this can be controlled through orificing and doesn't have to be done through the controller.

If you are planning on doing alot of downshifting as in roadracing, auto-crossing, then I would use a manual trans. TKO or similar. If you want a bulletproof automatic then the 4L80 is a good option but pretty large in a Z car. You could have a 200-4R built up to about the 600 HP level. Above that and I tend to suggest a 4L80E.

Teekass, I used the JTR kit which is the only kit I have used for this swap. My main reason for using the JTR kit was my experience with their S10 conversion manual several years ago. Mike Knell writes excellent conversion manuals and overall does an excellent job. I tend to agree with his methods usually. However on the Datsun Hybrid I would change the mounting method if doing it over. I would go slightly more forward. Even if only an inch. If I were designing it I would go about 2" forward. It would gain some much needed firewall space, stock hood latch, etc. My biggest issue is the transmission dispstick on the Th350. I "clearanced" the firewall/floorpan area good and the dipstick is a PITA to do. IF you use the JTR kit, just plan on buying a firewall mounted Lokar type dispstick. It will make life way easier. Also be sure you slot the frame mount stands as much as possible. Oil pan clearance isn't an issue on my car, IIRC it is about equal with the crossmember. If I had a customer that wanted a V8 Z tomorrow, I would order the JTR parts, and use the mount plates as a template to make some that place the engine slightly more forward. Either way, have fun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEFGPZP3dK4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TlbhmZZhNw

Grumpy, I believe you can get the IK's with CNC chamber option, I dunno about the Summit version, but the Brodix I am almost certain. The IK is the low budget Brodix head that works good but is very option limited. IIRC they only come in 2 runner sizes, basically 2 configurations and 4 seperate heads with the CNC chamber option. I'm going off memory from a combo about a year ago but can check my notes. The Brodix RaceRites have many more options.

The low/reverse cluthc pack is at the very back of the case and requires complete disassembly to inspect. It sounds like you need to do a complete disassembly to figure out multiple issues.

If the pump is bad, you would have slipping in all ranges. You COULD have an issue with the reverse boost valve and not have reverse or slipping in reverse. However that wouldnt have any affect on low or 4th. You need to pinpoint what area of the trans the noise is coming from first. You need to ensure the trans is properly filled with fluid, the TV cable adjustment and geometry are correct, and then diagnose what gears you do and do not have for sure. Then it will probably be getting removed for repair. It might be helpful to hook up a pressure guage and check pressures before you remove it to help diagnose it completely.

If the sun shell is broken, you will not have 2nd, 4th, and reverse. 1st and 3rd will still function.

No, If you do not have 1st gear engine braking or reverse, you have an issue with the low/reverse clutch pack. This clutch pack can be totally omitted from the transmission and the feed hole plugged and you would still have 1st gear forward range, you just would not have any engine braking in 1st gear. I omit this clutch pack on some applications like a Bonneville Salt Flats car where reverse isn't needed or wanted and it lessens parasitic drag at 200+ mph. The low sprag is the holding element that allows 1st gear. The sun shell, no matter what GM design it is, can spread the tangs out that mate to the revers einput drum. The common failure if the sun shell is the splines stripping on the sun gear. When this happens you have no 2nd gear, 4th gear, or reverse. Some people don't realize they don't have 2nd, the trans will shift from 1st to 3rd at a late rpm with an odd slide-bump shift. If you do take this trans back apart, and I suspect you will be, replace the sun shell with the upgraded aftermarket "Beast sun shell". I suspect you have an issue with one of clutches that holds in reverse, the reverse input or the low/reverse pack. I would suggest getting a pressure guage on the trans to diagnose from this point, but if it is making noise, I would try to pinpoint that first. There are several torrington bearings throughout the trans.

Yes it is the same trans that a 95 PU would use, however ALL ranges must have a functioning pump to drive, an auto trans functions off of hydraulic pressure and without it the trans will not engage any gear. You either misunderstood your trans builder or he 1. doesn't know how they operate, or 2. was filling you full of BS.

Check for 1st gear engine braking by shifting the trans into 1st gear as you are traveling at a reasonable speed in 2nd. Say 15-20 mph downshift to low and you should feel the downshift ,the engine rpm go up, and the car should decelerate. If if just "freewheels" without any engine braking you have a problem in the low reverse clutch. The rubbing sounds could be the sun shell rubbing the case. The sun shell tangs get spread out from being driven by the reverse input drum. IF they are spread out the sun shell needs to be replaced. I ALWAYS replace the sun shell with a "Beast" sun shell on a 700 or 4L60E build. It's a $45 part and well worth the peace of mind. It could also be a torrington bearing. Does it increase with the engine rpm or with the gear changes?

What does it do in reverse? When you rev it up does it act like it is in neutral or does it act like a trans-brake? There are two sets of clutches used in reverse, the low/reverse clutch pack in the back of the case, and the reverse input clutches in the drum just behind the pump. Which seals/clutches did you replace? Do you have engine braking in 1st gear manual?

I have a COMPLETE traditional 350 in my shop to include iron 2 bbl intake and carb, water pump, Delco starter, all accessories, pulleys, brackets, flexplate, and exhaust manifolds. I however only have an iron block LSx motor to compare it to. My only reasonably accurate method to measure would be to weigh my truck unloaded with full tank of gas, with the engine in the back, and again without it at a local grain scale that is calibrated and tested by the Texas Weights and Measures Dept. If someone has an LS1 locally in the North Texas area maybe we can get a good idea of what they weight COMPLETE, as I see this as being more useful. A bare block only tells part of the story. LS1 has a lightweight plastic intake, etc. Gen I doesn't.

It somewhat depends on the specific transmission, but deceleration downshifts while above the converter stall speed or with a locked converter are rough on an automatic transmission. I'm assuming you are looking at using a 4L60E. As mentioned, the over-run or coasting clutches are not used in OD, but are used in 3rd, so if you do a manual downshift from 4th to 3rd under decel, these two very small clutches will not last long. On a 3rd to 2nd downshift can be cause additional wear on the 2nd band, but this shouldn't be a huge issue if it's built right. You would want to be sure the trans was properly accumulated so that the 3-4 clutches released quickly so they aren't dragging as the band applies on the downshift. Then on a 2-1 downshift, the low sprag will lock, this is pretty brutal to the sprag (actually a roller clutch). IMO the 4L60E isn't the unit to use for a hi-perf setup.

Someone fill me in, I don't watch TV and I'm not familiar with what happened on "Pinks".

I tend to agree with this statement. You'd probably get kicked off the track quick running an IRS sub 10's but it woudl be fun for a run or two Most of my drag racing expereince has been dealing with fairly heavy street legal or close to it cars such as Chevelles, Camaros, and occasionally soemthing as light as a Chevy II. Using a solid proven 383-400 combo these cars can fairly easily get well into the 11's. A full bodied ~3500 lb car running mid 11's with a fairly streetable gear with a relatively budget built SBC. When you reduce the weight to early Z specs, that's approx a 1000 lb reduction, that theoreticallyh would reduce ET by 1 full second. So a mid 10 should be a no-brainer on a Z car if the suspension/tire package will hook. My car is very near what Dr Hunt mentioned. A budget 400 SBC with a set of used (new but injured) Trick Flows that were reworked by CFM Performance. A solid flat tappet cam, etc. Total expenditure on the motor is less than $2000 from carb to oil pan. Judging from tonight's test drive, I might make 9's a goal...

Mike, The "stress" on the trans to engine mounting bolts is a non issue. GM (and almost every other OEM) has mounted billions of powertrains this way. Side mounts on the motor and a rear transmission mount. There is no stress to speak of. If it was an issue, there wold be more mounting points on every production vehicle Chevy produced from ~1962 on. I believe Chevy went to the rear mounted trasmissions in the passenger cars in 1962, and around 1967 in their truck, rather than the bellhousing mounts.

Even with the Scarab setup I could use the JTR radiator setup and the large electric fan I have. I think a daily driver wouldn't notice any real difference in even the Scarab position compared to the JTR as far as steering and handling go, especially when using a SBC with alum heads, intake, and headers. This is a pretty light package. I wold much rather reduce expense and trouble by moving the engine forward 1-2". The JTR it IS well engineered, I will attest to that. Anytime you can buy a kit, and mount an engine on the stock frame mounts, and it line up perfectly with the mounting holes, it is engineeered properly. I didn't initially elongate the holes in the frame mounts, I did however do it for additional trans dipstick clearance after the test fit. I've use the JTR stuff on an S10 conversion I did as well. Excellent stuff and info. Just in this case, if I were doing it again, except in specific instances, I would mount it further forward. If it wasn't for the driveshaft, I would modify it now.

Mike, I've been knee deep in my Z for the last couple of days. I was looking at it tonight and to move it forward more than about an inch, it would also have to come up somewhat for oil pan clearance. So the MSA kit may be the way to go. I'll look at it closer tomorrow. I got a tangent to figure out the blower motor wiring tonight. Note: The blower motor relay is grounded through the relay itself, if it isn't attached to the body, you won't have blower motor operation.

Mike, I would just drill a new set of holes in the JTR mounting plates. There is plenty of room for a fan and pump even in the Scarab location i woudl think. I have lots of room in my car. I don't think the weight ratio is a huge deal unless you are after the last ounce of traction in a drag application, or the very best handling in an Auto-X application. Especially with an aluminum headed SBC.

Now that the install is complete and the car is legal to driver as of yesterday I'll post a few thoughts on the swap. The JTR kit is excellent quality and works well, however I don't think I'll mount another one in that position unless the ultimate goal is auto-crossing or drag racing. The average street car won't notice a huge difference I believe in the position and it brings a few problems that the "Scarab" position wouldn't. 1. One of the major PITA parts of this swap is the auto trans dipstick. In the JTR position, even with the floorpan "clearanced", the dispstick is against the bellhousing and floor. I will probably go to a flexible Lokar style dipstick. 2. Distributor clearance. very limited and removal requires pulling the hood latch components loose. Not a real big deal, but if the motor was 1" further forward it would have more options. 3. Balancer to steering clearance. A couple of inches forward would solve this issue also. Overall I think a more forward position would save the average street car alot of hassle on the install. I think maybe a position somewhere in between the Scarab and JTR might be best. I would be tempted to use the JTR mounts and drill a different set of holes to move the motor forward.

Mike, Adjusting guideplates is a simple procedure and a pretty basic part of engine assembly. Considering shaft rockers (which are unnecessary in a street and even many racing applications) just to eliminate a normal engine assembly procedure is very backwards thinking. If you feel that the guideplates are too much trouble, have a machine shop assemble the engine. You have probably spent more time researching the shaft mounted rockers than what adjusting the guideplates would have taken. The KISS method usually works best, especially on a street engine.