OldAndyAndTheSea

Yeah, that was initially my plan with keeping the trim piece. That would be a great place to have a seam, that the trim would then cover. Bridging definitely is a concern along that area though. If I changed some geometry then it would be much easier to lay up. I wanted to replicate the original as closely as possible. I'll adapt and change as needed. Again, though, great suggestion. Thank you for that. Another thought was to have the interior portions of the console pockets be colored black, again utilizing the trim ring area as the transition area to visible carbon. If that area's aesthetics were eliminated, the rest would be significantly easier. Like you said, it's not complex, but it certainly isn't an easy part to make either. I'm having fun playing around, that's for sure. I used non continuous pieces for the last remaining plies. I learned a lot about where I could cut and potentially blend. I also have had thoughts of a total redesign, with an open cavity where those pockets are, and various inserts that are separate that can be inserted/bonded/swapped later. Two separate parts would be much easier. Captain Hindsight at work once again. Regardless, gotta push through with the first attempt. Most likely changes will need to happen. But that's composites, isn't it?

Great points. I failed to talk about the initial debulk(s). Thank you. You can't consolidate too much. Ideally, with infusion you are shooting for around 70-75% fiber loading (fiber: resin ratio). However, this varies with the materials being used. Too little resin in the laminate = Dry... bad. Too much resin in the laminate = Resin rich.....bad. You'd like just the right amount. Just got home from work, I brought the carbon and the tool home. I'm probably going to try to lay it up this evening. I'll either update again, or edit with any progress. EDIT: Got the first, and most important layer on. I'll say, this geometry is tricky. Still unsure of how it will come out. I won't be in until Monday to prep it for infusion. But, I'll finish laying up the remaining plies over the weekend. At this point, I'm thinking I'm only going to offer glass consoles at this point, once the time comes.. The carbon ones, at least initially, are far too labor intensive, and they will almost always have some sort of flaw (in the twill) in them. What an ordeal that was...haha

In work, it is just as laborious. However, in different ways than you see here.. Prepregs are much more fun to work with because they have a surface 'tack' to them. Which is actually the catalyzed resin system; a secondary benefit to their design. This helps them stick to the tool surface. Prepreg parts go through multiple, what are known as, "debulks". In between specific amount of layers, a vacuum bag is placed over the laminate, and compressed. The bag is then removed, and more layers go on. Once you add that certain number of layers.... Another bag... (or hopefully you can manage to reuse your previous bag). Rinse and repeat... until desired laminate. Prepregs are also far more energy intensive. You need an oven, of some sorts, to bake the parts at an elevated temperature for a set period. Prepregs also need to be refrigerated when not in use. I remember you mentioning that your guy has access to an autoclave. Heat and pressure in one. That's serious business. Almost too serious for non structural parts. Almost. Those have the potential to be really beautiful laminates. The rules change when you work with prepregs. Nothing crazy, just different. I like prepregs a lot. You can get the utmost engineering potential with prepregs. More so than any other process. It all takes time though. Most of the time is in the tooling, which can vary greatly depending on the process/person/project.

Again, it's no problem. I'm glad to share. Thank you, I'm glad you said that. Not all of my motive is strictly educational... A part of me wanted to document to the process to show the vast amounts of labor and time involved in creating even the simplest of parts. It will be a nice resource to people who want to haggle on my prices, which I have yet to crunch the numbers on. Sorry. I always get a kick out of the "only xx amount of materials" comment. Cool, you build one then. Cool, there's some motivation to actually start laying up my mold then! haha, I'd love to help. I know it's premature, since you haven't seen any finished product yet, but do you know if you'd like carbon fiber or a glass replacement? Any specifics/modifications needed? I'll starting planning now, so I will be ready when the production run happens. I'm planning on laying up the mold tomorrow some time. The last two days, I have been super busy and have not had the time at work required to start laying up the carbon fiber prototype. I'm jumping straight to carbon. Normally you'd NEVER do this, as carbon can be 10 times more expensive than glass (or more). For example: One yard of 3k twill carbon fiber is roughly 40 dollars per yard. One yard of the 12oz glass I use is roughly 5 dollars per yard. <Segway into fiber conversation> 3k twill is some of the most commonly used carbon fiber in the automotive world. 3k refers to the fiber count, per tow. This is one tow. So there are three thousand individual fibers in each of those. You can now begin to see why carbon is so strong. twill refers to the weave of those tows. 'Twill' is what most people think of when they think "carbon fiber" A twill weave pattern has tows going over two, and then under two. Typically in the 0 and 90 degree axises Look closely, you can see the tows weaving over two, and under two. Twill offers EXCELLENT conformity. This is why most complex carbon parts have this aesthetic, since it is the easiest weave to conform to shapes. If strength is designed/required, the subsequent layers under the twill are different directional carbon fiber, depending on the engineering. That was a long drawn out way of saying... I don't have any twill weave fiberglass, so I can not test my mold with a similar acting material, on the cheap. I know that I could make colored glass ones "no problem". But, the questions have always been... "Can I get the twill to behave around all of the complex geometry that the console offers?" And "Will it have an aesthetically pleasing class A finish?" The other thing, specific to my console, is that I designed it to keep the chrome trim piece. Like the ashtray, I'll bond it in place post production. I thought it would be a nice touch....but honestly, in retrospect, that little trim piece is going to make my life a whole hell of a lot harder. In any future molds, this provision will be deleted. Unless you really wanted it. Hindsight is always 20-20. Lets see what tomorrow brings..

I like Firefox.

The updates are no problem, as most of them are simply excerpts from my build thread. No biggie. I'm glad you guys like the progress. Yep, so in order to make modifications to the design you do have to make a new mold, based off a plug with said modifications. Doing that isn't terribly difficult. Now that I have a mold, I can... 1.) Make a new plug. (essentially a really burly, untrimmed finished console, with a slightly smaller flange) 2.) Then make the changes to the new plug. 3.) Pull a new mold off that plug 4.) Make that part. The key is to have a master that remains unchanged for each part you'd like to make. If I were to perpetually modify the same plug, I wouldn't be able to create new molds of that part. Molds get tired over time and must be remade. So you make new plugs with subsequent molds for any alterations one wants to make. Knowing the geometry works is a huge part of the battle though. The first one always takes the longest. * master and plug are synonymous terms.

Trimmed the edge. Applied the sealer (left) and the release (right) The mold is now ready to lay up. Supposedly, we are expecting not one, not two, but three feet of snow this evening into tomorrow. So there may be a chance that I do not go in to work tomorrow. But if I do, I'll begin laying up the part.

News from the shop. Received proof of life this afternoon. The two areas of brown are clay. I made a couple of fillets, to insure release, in some areas with questionable draft. Looks like I'll be sealing, frekoting and planning the layup of console #001 Cool!

Thanks for the encouragement everyone, it means a lot. I'm glad people are enjoying this, I certainly am. Okay, I lied... Today is NOT the day. Apologies.. I have decided to give the epoxy another day or so to fully cure before trying to remove the mold from the plug. We have been tailoring our resin chemistry a bit, and this particular mixture requires a little longer cure time. I hoped it would be ready by the time I worked today, however, no bueno. That said, the laminate looks good, so if it does release I'm fairly certain it should also have vacuum integrity. Again, can't stress vacuum integrity/leak free tooling (molds) enough. Super important. Peel ply, and process stack removed. You can see some print left behind from the resin feed. Evidence of the high cure temperatures. Doesn't look like much on this side, but this is what I wanted. (B side) Hopefully the 'A side' proves to be successful as well. Also, I snapped a better picture of another infusion I was doing today. Much better visual than yesterday's. You can clearly see the tinted black resin front creeping its way, eccentrically, from the resin feed in the center, towards the vacuum line at the perimeter -random jet ski part I won't be going in until Monday, but my business partner says he will attempt to pull the mold tomorrow. So I should at least have news. Good, or bad. Hurry up, and wait.

Slowly 'plugging' away at it. PREFACE: apologies for the long boring update, it's kind of hard to document what I'm doing without explaining it a little first. TL;DR: I successfully infused the mold. So with the release agent on the plug, first, I applied the 'surface coat'. This will be the mold's finished surface, once it's pulled from the plug. Once cured, then comes the fabric. Most of my parts are created via infusion, a slightly more complicated process (briefly explained below). But it allows for much nicer parts. So the dry fabric is lightly tacked to the surface coat. Templates were made, and a kit was cut, prior to this point. A couple layers 6oz glass... or as some know it: "boat cloth". Followed by four layers of 12oz glass. Okay, so now that the dry fabric is in place, it's time to start building the bag. First the 'tacky tape' is secured to the perimeter of the plug. Area shown below. This is what the vacuum bag attaches to. Then, since we want to remove all of the "process stack" (plumbing) from the finished part, I put down some peel ply. This material is specifically designed to release from finished parts. Then, flow media, or as some call it "turkey bag" is affixed to the peel ply surface. This is essentially nylon screen material. Its function is to promote the flow of resin, allowing the material to disperse easily. (less surface area to travel, blah blah yada yada..) Vacuum line is run along the perimeter of the part. In this particular infusion, the flow is known as "Eccentric". Meaning that it resin will feed from the center of the part, and infuse outward, toward the vacuum line, located outboard. It varies in size, but it is just plastic conduit material. Now for the resin feed... Once all that garbage is in place....Then the bag gets built. Under vacuum. With infusion, the vacuum bag must be PERFECT, meaning no leaks ANYWHERE. Leaks equate to pulling air THROUGH your part. Air = (really bad) weak parts So, as you can imagine, there is a lot of room for error in these steps. One stray fiber accidentally under the tacky tape can ruin a bag and drive you nuts in the process. Luckily, I'm The Man, my bag was good. This was also a test of my plug, as I did not know until this point if it too had vacuum integrity. Clearly, it passed. Otherwise, this update would NOT be happening. Haha. Once the bag checks out, it is now time to begin the infusion. For those that are unfamiliar with the process, infusion uses the atmospheric pressure to "push" the resin through the laminate. The atmosphere weights a lot. So when you remove the atmosphere from the vacuum bag, you create a huge pressure differential. All of that weight conforms the bag and laminate to the plug form. Resin is continually moved through the laminate, only keeping what is necessary, until the resin gels. The rest of the resin either makes its way into a trap, to protect the vacuum pump, or gets stuck in the lines of the "process stack". A sacrifice in cost (plumbing, resin waste, etc..) but the benefit is a superior laminate, when compared to most other processes. Highly consolidated, and lightweight (no excess resin). Plus, you never get resin on your hands. I like my hands clean. Here's a picture of what the flow front looks like, wetting out the laminate. It's just finishing up here, as you can see the resin has made its way into the vacuum line. Fully wet out. (took around 20 minutes) And finally, here's an overall view (albeit terrible) of the setup. In the far view, you can see the vacuum pump, hooked into the plumbing. In the foreground, controlled via a valve, is the resin feed. Hopefully this makes sense. That's what you're looking for, clarity in the laminate. All you can see is the fabric's 'binder' That's a good sign. No air, Baby! Now, as long as the draft of the part is acceptable...It should release. Tomorrow is the moment of truth. Time will tell!

No problem. I can go into great depth describing the processes etc if necessary. I love showing people how this stuff works. It's way too awesome NOT to share. Okay, so now that the dry fabric is in place, it's time to start building the bag. First the 'tacky tape' is secured to the perimeter of the plug. Area shown below. This is what the vacuum bag attaches to. Then, since we want to remove all of the "process stack" (plumbing) from the finished part, I put down some peel ply. This material is specifically designed to release from finished parts. Then, flow media, or as some call it "turkey bag" is affixed to the peel ply surface. This is essentially nylon screen material. Its function is to promote the flow of resin, allowing the material to disperse easily. (less surface area to travel, blah blah yada yada..) Vacuum line is run along the perimeter of the part. In this particular infusion, the flow is known as "Eccentric". Meaning that the resin will feed from the center of the part, and infuse outward, toward the vacuum line, located outboard. It varies in size, but it is just plastic conduit material. Now for the resin feed... Once all that garbage is in place....Then the bag gets built. Under vacuum. With infusion, the vacuum bag must be PERFECT, meaning no leaks ANYWHERE. Leaks equate to pulling air THROUGH your part. Air = (really bad) weak parts So, as you can imagine, there is a lot of room for error in these steps. One stray fiber accidentally under the tacky tape can ruin a bag and drive you nuts in the process. Luckily, I'm The Man, my bag was good. This was also a test of my plug, as I did not know until this point if it too had vacuum integrity. Clearly, it passed. Otherwise, this update would NOT be happening. Haha. Once the bag checks out, it is now time to begin the infusion. For those that are unfamiliar with the process, infusion uses the atmospheric pressure to "push" the resin through the laminate. The atmosphere weights a lot. So when you remove the atmosphere from the vacuum bag, you create a huge pressure differential. All of that weight conforms the bag and laminate to the plug form. Resin is continually moved through the laminate, only keeping what is necessary, until the resin gels. The rest of the resin either makes its way into a trap, to protect the vacuum pump, or gets stuck in the lines of the "process stack". A sacrifice in cost (plumbing, resin waste, etc..) but the benefit is a superior laminate, when compared to most other processes. Highly consolidated, and lightweight (no excess resin). Plus, you never get resin on your hands. I like my hands clean. Here's a picture of what the flow front looks like, wetting out the laminate. It's just finishing up here, as you can see the resin has made its way into the vacuum line. Fully wet out. (took around 20 minutes) And finally, here's an overall view (albeit terrible) of the setup. In the far view, you can see the vacuum pump, hooked into the plumbing. In the foreground, controlled via a valve, is the resin feed. Hopefully this makes sense. That's what you're looking for, clarity in the laminate. All you can see is the fabric's 'binder' That's a good sign. No air, Baby! Now, as long as the draft of the part is acceptable...It should release. Tomorrow is the moment of truth. Time will tell!

Sorry I've been slacking on updates....Here's the current progress. And some description of the process. So with the release agent on the plug, first, I applied the 'surface coat'. This will be the molds finished surface, once it's pulled from the plug. Once cured, then comes the fabric. Most of my parts are created via infusion, a slightly more complicated process, that will make more sense after tomorrow's update. But it allows for much nicer parts. So the dry fabric is lightly tacked to the surface coat. Templates were made, and a kit was cut, prior to this point. A couple layers 6oz glass... or as some know it: "boat cloth". Followed by four layers of 12oz glass. So tomorrow I throw a bunch of stuff on it, toss it under a vacuum bag, and infuse some resin through all the laminate at once. Which means, moment of truth comes Friday. Will it pull? I hope so. I'll update after I infuse.

Fiberglass can bend. Should it? no.

My old stomping grounds. Too bad I wasn't still going to Buff State. Elmwood Ave is where any of the night life is. Panos is a great restaurant. And you HAVE to either go to DUFFS or Anchor Bar. Decide who has the better Buffalo wings. It's a pretty heated debate.

Thanks guys! Prototype console plug, as of today, is complete. Applied the sealer, and the release agent. We'll see if a mold comes off of it with no problems. If it does...oh man! I can taste the carbon... Mmmmmm fiber. More to come, as it happens.

Another small progress update. Touched up the block, ignore my engine hoist valve cover, the engine can basically go back in the car any time. Hopefully real soon. Prototype console plug, as of today, is complete. Applied the sealer, and the release agent. We'll see if a mold comes off of it with no problems. If it does...oh man! I can taste the carbon...Mmmmmm fiber. More to come, as it happens

This is one of those things I definitely want, if feasible, down the line. Watching with interest. Getting the car off the ground is one of my least favorite things to do.

Chris Never did I say you were wrong. In fact, I agree with practically everything you said... Other than the aforementioned comment. There are many arguments/counterpoints to each side of the discussion, that's all. I just didn't want this thread to get dragged through the mud as many have in the past. Too late for that now, I guess.... But when discussing bonding. Getting the type of bond correct is kind of a big deal. All it takes is one shred of inaccuracy to completely shatter someone's legitimacy. Unfortunately, this is the internet. And body mechanic is a pretty common term in this region. Surely this isn't the first time you've heard it. Again, no disrespect here. I like a good open debate. In fact, I promote them.

Good points.... However. My post was not intended to come off as a dick measuring contest. I'm a science guy. I like the facts. I was mainly just affirming the fact that there really is no set "best" way to do this. An ideal that HybridZ will often recognize.. It is all so very dependent on a myriad of variables. I mainly responded to your claim that a chemical bond occurs between polyester fillers and epoxy primers. Which simply does not. Anecdotal evidence, or not... That's the science. I honestly wouldn't have responded had you not made (the ironic in my mind) statement about misinformation in this thread. Then go and state your own.... In the thread you provided, which was a good discussion by the way, someone also made this claim.

It's not a dumb question at all. This stuff is pretty confusing, at first. You don't modify the mold. You make a new plug from the mold that I pull off of the piece I'm working on. (A plug is essentially just a part, with a flange on it.) Then you modify THAT new plug, with a slightly smaller flange, to accommodate the changes. The master, what you see me working on now, never changes. I make a mold from this master. I then make a console for myself. I then make a new plug from that same mold (add a flange to the layup) Make necessary modifications to the new plug. Pull new mold from plug once changes have been made. Make new part. Tonight I did a little fairing, and recoated. It's getting smoother.

Wow! awesome! Pm sent.

Thanks, Gents! Once I know the geomerty of the plug works, It'll be easy to make/modify another plug with t-5 shifter updates, and some cupholder research and development. It's still in the cards. I'll update this evening with some decent fairing progress.

It all depends on the composition of the materials you intend on using. I think that's the message you should take away from this thread. Body filler is like cake batter. There are lots of different flavors to choose from. Primers too... Why don't you tell us what materials you plan on using and we could go from there? There are nine ways to skin a cat. Filler before, filler after..if you used the (proper) materials properly, you will not have problems. As mentioned, if you are in doubt, look at the product data sheet. And guys....you're supposed to break through the primer when you block, at least initially. That's all part of the blocking process. Those break throughs are transitioning the worked areas into the good areas of the panel. If you get the car straight without breaking through in the initial blocking stages, you are a freaking wizard....or your car isn't as straight as you think it is. <--- ASE Body Mechanic coming up on 10 years. Also certified in Open molding, Vacuum infusion, and LRTM composites processes. . This is RIGHT up my alley. Also, some good reading. All of the information you are looking for is in the link I provided. Understanding the composition of both polyester and epoxy makes a big difference, as these two materials don't always mate the same way. (Polyester body fillers DO NOT chemically bond with epoxy primers, as they are opposing compositions. Polyester does not like to stick to epoxy, however epoxy WILL stick to polyester.) http://www.roadsters.com/filler/ EDIT: and don't forget the guide coat! That'll take the guess work out of straightness.

No hold downs. The OEM Datsun seals (manifold) accept the 440 pintle. The top O-ring, which goes into the fuel rail and the brackets hold the injectors in place.

Small update Waiting on some parts for the 240... Mainly a new lightweight (12#) steel flywheel for the car. Once that arrives, I can start to prep to put the engine back in the car. That's exciting. While I wait for my parts, I have been slowly making progress in regards to the carbon center console. The plug is now in Duratec. The fairing process can begin. Not much, but that's all for now.