BRAAP

REISHOKIN240Z, First off, welcome to Hybrid Z. We are generally warm friendly bunch so if some of what we say comes across as harsh, just let it roll of your back and don’t be afraid to ask what or why. 1) Hmm.. Fuel pressure falling off. Have you verified your fuel pump is keeping up and/or possibly a clogged fuel filter? I know you said that your pulse widths are also falling off, but I still have to ask… 2) The ignition driver could also be dieing or drawing to much current as “trwebb26” pointed out. 3) Also, have you verified that your actual ignition timing on the crank shaft matches what MS is configured for/telling you? 4) As for your MAP discrepancies. Sounds like the config settings for your particular MAP sensor may be off. You might contact Steve or Rodney at RS Autosport to verify your config settings for your MAP sensor within MS/Mega Tune, (My MSnS-E system was built by them. I have nothing but praise for their craftsmanship.) As for Ron’s post, I’m pretty sure he was talking about your use of ALL capital letters, i.e. it looks like your caps lock button on your keyboard is stuck. If you are new to the online forums, “how” we write is viewed the same as “how” we speak in face to face conversation. For example, the use of capitol letters is like yelling or talking “at” someone. There are some people that very sensitive to this and sometimes those people can be quite frank about sharing their feelings. I think Ron was trying let you know this, giving you a little nudge before someone else jumped in harshly, as happens once in awhile on any forum. (Actually I’m surprised no one has spoken up about the use of CAPs in this thread yet)… As for your Data log. If you have the means to take a screen shot of your data log and post it up using hosted picture site such as “photobucket”, or better yet, send that data-log to me directly at the E-mail address below as I have Mega-Log-Viewer on my desktop, and I’d be glad to look it over and even screen shot it and post it up here for you for others to give input, if that is ok with you. What pressure sensor are you using for logging your fuel pressure?

I found the same EXACT thing within the last year while building up the F-prepared car! I was wanting a surge tank and found during that exhaustive research project, that AU is where all the surge tanks, cool EFI systems such as WOLF EMS, (bought a V500 for project Fuzzy…), and some pretty spectacular hybrid cars hail… (Note to self… If we ever move… place Australia at the top of the list…) I planned, researched, and purchased my potential surge tank, but never did install it. I bought a CSR tranny overflow canister, CSR 851, with mounting bracket, (BEAUTIFUL piece of work, CNC aluminum at 4.875” tall, 3” dia, holds one pint, with a nice CNC mounting bracket,) to use as my surge tank on my MS EFI L-28 race car. It is a little pricey at just under $80, but its overall size was pert-neer perfect, maybe a little big, but definitely not too large. Finding a vessel to serve as a surge tank that isn’t overly tall is not easy, (I was trying to use currently available “catch cans” and most are quite tall). Any how, this CSR unit comes filled with yellow fiber material which would work awesome as an anti-slosh device, though being as I was running AV gas, I didn’t want to chance incompatibility. I spent some 90+ minutes with a dental pick removing that material through a ¼” NPT hole!!!! I then placed a sample of that material in a can with the AV gas and let it set for over a month. The material helped up to AV gas just fine, (this little tid bit of knowledge would’ve saved me an hour and half of picking… ). After completely emptying the container of its filler material, I could see that some sort of sealant was used to seal up the canister during manufacturing. This meant that I probably should pressure test this vessel and also be sure the sealant was compatible with AV gas. I hooked up a Schrader valve to the canister, placed the canister in a 5 gallon bucket of water, (my safety device to help absorb the energy IF the canister wasn’t able to handle 125 PSI of air), and pressurized it to 125 PSI! It held just fine with no leaks. Next I filled the canister with AV gas and let it set for a month, right long side the anti slosh material in its can. After that month, the sealant looked just as it did from the beginning, but just to be sure, I pressure tested again with the same results, held 125 PSI with NO leaks. Ok, so this unit would work fine as a surge tank with AV gas. I’ can’t guarantee that will work with auto fuel as auto fuel additives may or may not be compatible with the sealant used to seal this container, but I personally wouldn’t be afraid to try it on my car, and in-fact, I just may if I don’t build a custom fuel cel with an integral surge tank for project FUZZY. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=CSI%2D851&N=700+400179

Boy oh boy… I was hoping in your first thread that we were on the right track, but now, I am really at a loss. Darn it. I wish I had some REAL advice, even if it just allowed you to test something else that was already working just fine… Ok… Based on what you have provided thus far, it seems like it should be something fairly easy to remedy, such as a poor "ground" signal or poor “power” signal. The only thing that changed was that you did some mechanical work, right? That means that you had to disconnect some electrical goodies and reconnect those electrical goodies. That is where I’d start. Things to make absolutely sure of with MS is a GOOD CLEAN positive 12V power source for the injectors AND the ECU, as well as a good positive ground signal, (this is JUST as important as the +12v.) If it works on another car, but not this one, then it has to be in the wiring, or maybe the alternator? Please let us know if you find the issue and if not, keep posting what you have tested and have not tested, to the best of your knowledge…

2 points really stand out in this thread thus far…. 1) Throttle body to manifold alignment…. I do honestly feel that the size of the throttle valve has an impact if/when the transition from the throttle body to the manifold plenum is offset, i.e. there is a step in the transition. It then becomes critical to size the throttle body “to” the plenum entrance, not so much the overall size of the throttle body itself. I guess what I’m trying to say is, “it’s not the size of the thing, but how it’s installed!” 2) Induction velocity…. For an engine that is running and tuned to the ragged edge, velocity should be considered in the design of the entire induction tract from the air filter to the crown of the piston, not just the intake port runners. Good point… This is good stuff. Keep it coming guys…

WOW! Great power numbers from an SR, nice work. Thanks for sharing. There really hasn’t been any claim to overly large throttle bodies being a hindrance to engine output, at least in reference to being too big… not sure your point with this one?

So that wood be one of dem thar non english speakin web forums?... Too bad us Hybriders speak only da english...

Did you select a different download place or do anything special for it to work? Any help would be greatly appreciated. The You-tube preview is awesome. Thanks in advance.

Okie dokie.. That helps a bit. 1) The rise in fuel pressure… Your rise in fuel pressure previously was due to the fact the engine started to run like crap and as result, manifold pressure went way up, i.e. loss of vacuum, hence the fuel pressure regulator not getting a vacuum signal and allowing the fuel pressure to come up to full. 2) In reference to Okimotos question, are you using the stock OE injectors? If so, without the resistor pack, "maybe" there is a chance the high current draw of the stock Datsun injectors is to much for the MS drivers?!? (This is more Mobythevan and Z-ya Pete’s territory, maybe they’ll chime in on that one…) 3) You mentioned a voltage drop in the electrical system. MS does have an adjustment for voltage variations which is there to help keep the “actual” injector pulse width consistent with varying vehicle voltages. It could be that your voltage compensation is either over or under compensating when this voltage drop happens? Of course, the fact that the voltage drop is taking place in the first place needs to be address as well. After you confirm your injector situation, I’d work on fixing that voltage issue. Hope that helps…

I downloaded all 3 of them, no go. They are AutoCAD scripts, installed into the windows directory. Windows XP doesn’t recognize them as screensavers nor can you open them without AutoCAD. The demo on You-tube looked great. Too bad the screensavers are only for machines with AutoCAD installed…

Eric, Looking forward to hearing how it runs… Keep us posted..

OMG!!! Check out that same 4 rotor Turbonic monster vs .. uh.. some other friggin quick rotary monster... 7.87 @ 183

What method are you using to check your AFR's? Try disconnecting the vacuum source to the regulator, repeat and report.

AMEN!!

FWIW, the stock EFI manifold port runners have only 53% the area of the L-28 intake valve!… Spend all the money, time, and effort you want on big throat throttle valves, but until you open those restrictive runners, open the exhaust system, optimize your ignition system, you will NOT be realizing the engines full potential with ANY over size of throttle valve. Just a little food for thought. Do a search for L-6 dyno figures. You’ll find quite a few for the Turbo guys, and a handful for the N/A guys. Now ALL of the Turbo guys running the OE EFI intake manifold are making great torque numbers, but their HP numbers are pretty low compared to what they should be for the amount torque they are producing. Their dyno numbers are VERY much like turbo diesel HP and torque numbers. Others that are running similar set ups but the only difference is a different intake, the HP numbers fall in line with the torque numbers respectively, i.e. if they are making 500 ft lbs of torque, they are also making in the neighborhood of 500+ HP. The OE intake guys making similar torque figures are typically making mid 300 to low 400 HP figures… For the N/A EFI crowd, a similar situation holds true. You will find that the only fast EFI N/A guys are running some intake other than the OE intake! (hmm… seems to be trend here… ) The throttle valve being used, whether it be OE or the monster 90mm Q-45 unit is irrelevant. If you want more power from and EFI L-6 engine, these are the items I would concentrate on in order of priority… 1) Exhaust, Ignition, (quality spark and “tuned” mech curve), Induction, (including getting rid of that AFM!) 2) Cam, (but ONLY after exhaust, ignition, induction upgrades including an aftermarket standalone EFI) 3) Light weight flywheel. 4) Head work. In regards to HUGE throttle valves, here is a post I finally thought was time to post…. http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?p=746418 Hope that helps...

(This is a cut and paste, with some editing, from another thread. The topic of big throttle valves came up again and my gut reaction was to go public with my point of view…) Ok, I’ve been reading a lot lately on this forum about the desire to install "huge by large" throttle bodies on little engines and have been biting tongue every time. I have to know as my curiosity is killing me here. Why is there SO much interest in these huge by large throttle bodies lately? For the L28 it use to be the 60mm, which, I can’t argue with. Then it was the 70 MM. Now it seems to be the HUGE by LARGE 90MM, (3.54”) from the Q-45?! Please don’t take this offensively, I am trying to keep an open mind about this though I am struggling with my knee jerk reaction to view those huge throttle valves on an L-series, (or any engine under 6 liters of displacement) as “rice”, on the same playing field as the coffee can exhaust tips on a 4 cylinder fad. I feel that pretty much anything larger than 60mm on an L-6, N/A, or even pushing CRAZY radical boost levels, isn’t going to free up any more power, but only make it harder to modulate what power it does produce, as full power will be in by 25% throttle opening... (Of course the throttle actuation could be “cammed” to offset that issue…) In the L-6 crowd, there has always been an interest in installing a bigger throttle valve on the OE EFI intake manifold. The stock EFI L-28 intake manifold port runners have only 53% the area of the L-28 intake valve! Being as the port runner wont breathe what the valve is capable of breathing, why are we spending money, time, and effort on bigger throttle valves that are not restricting the air flow like the individual runners are? My philosophy in regards the EFI L-28 is to fix the runner size issue, THEN address the throttle valve. Why do I feel this way towards the huge throttle bodies in genreal, you guys are thinking? Here is one boosted example that we built back in the late ‘90’s. It is a Twin Turbo MPFI Big Block 540 CID Chev with 10:1 compression, drinking 100LL AV gas, for an endurance white water Jet boat, for Justin Boice of Boice Jet. The engine was running an Autronic MPFI system on a tunnel ram modified to accept fuel injectors, a water to air intercooler, custom turbos built by Garret, (Garret was a sponsor and donated these custom Turbos which at the time utilized Indy car exhaust housings. That was all the info they would give us about the Turbos and made it very clear to us that we were not to dissemble the turbos under any circumstances, and that the Turbos were to be sent back to Garret if they needed ANYTHING at all). We ran the engine on the dyno at Sunset Engine Development, (jgkurz is familiar with this shop). The engine produced 1167 corrected HP, (1134 HP measured), at 5800 RPM with only 12 lbs. of boost! Now get this guys. This engine was breathing enough air to produce this 1100+ HP and was doing so through only TWO 2” ID throttle valves, EXACTLY like the 2” ID OE L-28 EFI throttle valves with full diameter throttle shafts etc. That is over 575 HP worth of air flow through just ONE stock L-28 EFI throttle valve with only 12 PSI of boost helping to shove that much air through that small throttle valve! More boost under similar conditions is even more air in terms of density, which is more power, (most of you are running considerably more boost than that). Could this particular 540 CID TT BBC engine be more efficient with larger throttle valves? Maybe. Having machined and built this engine myself, ran it on the dyno, and spent many trips on the rogue River watching this boat run 125+ MPH UP the rapids, I’m a firm believer that a super large Throttle body isn’t going to gain anything other than questions from tuners as to why it was installed. So as you can see, I don’t see what all the hype is about installing a throttle valve that the engine will never make use of, (at least that I can see from my personal experience), N/A or boosted, just like those huge 5” exhaust tips. I can see it on a show car, but for performance reasons, I just don’t get it…. If I am missing something here guys, please enlighten me. I am all about wanting to make big power... Maybe I'm just suffering from Throttle Valve envy?.. Here are some pics of the engine just prior to dyno tuning and while on the dyno as it was producing the numbers shown on the dyno sheet below, and the boat that it powered on the Rogue River in Southern Oregon… Note how well the water to air intercooler worked by looking at the inlet air temp and air temp after the I/C..

Please elaborate/decipher. Paul

DavidK, Maybe I posted the Tractor in the wrong thread…. Sorry for going off topic. FWIW, I don’t have one these gnarly articulating 4 wheeling monsters, boy that looks like LOTS of fun… This is a great thread, even for those of us that don’t have a true wheelin machine… I’m sorry to hear about your father. Your trip sounds like it was a blast and also incentive for another Hybrid Nissan in your driveway… Hmm.. 4.3 in a pathfinder.. I say DO IT!!!!

Here is my 4WD. Wife bought it for me new a few years back. John Deere 4310 E-hydro, push button 4 wheel drive, manual locking differential, heavy duty bucket, front forks, 60” brush hog and 60” Box Scraper. This is by far my favorite tool I own… Great for moving parts cars around behind the shop, pulling engines, dragging fallen 60+ foot tall trees, hauling firewood up to the house, etc… Here I am on the J.D while building the Rusch Motorsports Shop.. Two oldest daughters and the dog bringing fire wood to the house during the Pacific NW Ice Storm of ‘04 Oh, and my wife has her own 4wd, an all stock ’01 Chev Suburban, dark forest green aptly named SHREK! She has been eyeballing the ’07 Suburban lately...

You already covered the major issue, compression ratio. Outside of that, the N-42 will work just fine. For what its worth, the N-42 ports are VERY similar to the P-90 Turbo head ports. My the torque be with you..

I removed the foam from the inside of the cel and used a wrench inside. That was the ONLY way to get mine tight enough…

Thank you for clarifying guys. I have a customers ’76 factory A/C car in the shop and it is also a vacuum actuated water valve. I apologize for my misleading post. I am “pretty darn sure" that the ’75 factory A/C cars are sure cable actuated, (both of the ’75 factory A/C cars that I have owned with 4 speed fans are cable actuated heater valves). Again, I apologize for the misinformation. Paul

YEEUP! I had the same issue. Summit 8 gallon plastic fuel cel, both outlet fittings leaked profusely. They were both only snug from SUMMIT, (I should’ve verified fitting tightness from the get go). I Tightened them both up and they stopped leaking. The Blow molded plastic of the cel itself and the nylon washers on the AN fittings have to conform to each other to seal 100%, and both are medium hard so you’ll be pushing the limits of the aluminum AN fittings threads for a positive seal… I’m sure there are other alternatives to a positive seal, I just didn’t take the time to research it when I installed mine… Good luck…

You need a video converter. Once you run the vids through the converter program, they go right onto your iPod for viewing. On my 80 Gig iPod, I have quite a few Rally Vids, the Gixxer Kart, and of course Darius car, and the entire Pirates of the Caribbean, curse of the Black Pearl movie… Here-ye go.. http://www.google.com/search?q=Ipod+Video+converter&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8

I’ll reply the burnout further down.. As for the All Nissan V-8 Z,… Yeah, I toss the ideer around a lot and have always said in the past aloud that if the Q ever gets totaled I’ll be pulling the engine to install in a Z car… Well, that time has come, but if I can find the spare time, I would still LOVE to do that. This particular VH45DE runs great, definitely worthy of stuffing under the hood of a Z, though if someone steps up and wants the engine/power train, it is definitely for sale, but only as a complete running package. I wont be selling parts off the engine such as the TB... Speaking of which….. That is my question as well, why? Especially for a little 2.8L, or even a 3.1L, why? I personally feel it is oversized for the 4.5L it comes on! Ok, I’ve been reading a lot lately on this forum about the desire to install huge by large throttle bodies and have been biting tongue every time. I have to know as my curiosity is killing me here. Why is there SO much interest in these huge by large throttle bodies lately? Please don’t take this offensively, I am trying to keep an open mind about this though I am struggling with my knee jerk reaction to view those huge throttle valves on an L-series as “rice”, on the same playing field as the coffee can exhaust tip on a 4 cylinder fad. I feel that pretty much anything larger than 60mm on an L-6, N/A or even pushing CRAZY radical boost levels isn’t going to free up any more power, just make it harder to modulate what power it does produce, as full power will be in by 25% throttle opening... Why do I feel this way towards the huge throttle bodies, you guys are thinking? Here is one boosted example that we built back in the late ‘90’s. It is a Twin Turbo MPFI Big Block 540 CID Chev with 10:1 compression, drinking 100LL AV gas, for an endurance white water Jet boat, for Justin Boice of Boice Jet. The engine was running an Autronic MPFI system on a tunnel ram modified to accept fuel injectors, a water to air intercooler, custom turbos built by Garret, (Garret was a sponsor and donated these custom Turbos which at the time utilized Indy car exhaust housings. That was all the info they would give us about the Turbos and made it very clear to us that we were not to dissemble the turbos under any circumstances, and that the Turbos were to be sent back to Garret if they needed ANYTHING at all). We ran the engine on the dyno at Sunset Engine Development, (jgkurz is familiar with this shop). The engine produced 1167 corrected HP, (1134 HP measured), at 5800 RPM with only 12 lbs. of boost! Now get this guys. This engine was breathing enough air to produce this 1100+ HP and was doing so through only TWO 2” ID throttle valves, EXACTLY like the 2” ID OE L-28 EFI throttle valves with full diameter throttle shafts etc. That is over 575 HP worth of air flow through just ONE stock L-28 EFI throttle valve with only 12 PSI of boost helping to shove that much air through that small throttle valve! More boost under similar conditions is even more air in terms of density, which is more power, (most of you are running considerably more boost than that). Could this particular 540 CID TT BBC engine be more efficient with larger throttle valves? Maybe. Having machined and built this engine myself, ran it on the dyno, and spent many trips on the rogue River watching this boat run 125+ MPH UP the rapids, I’m a firm believer that a super large Throttle body isn’t going to gain anything other than questions from tuners as to why it was installed. So as you can see, I don’t see what all the hype is about installing a throttle valve that the engine will never make use of, (at least that I can see from my personal experience), N/A or boosted, just like those huge 5” exhaust tips. I can see it on a show car, but for performance reasons, I just don’t get it…. If I am missing something here guys, please enlighten me. I am all about wanting to make big power... Maybe I'm just suffering from Throttle Valve envy?.. Here are some pics of the engine just prior to dyno tuning and while on the dyno as it was producing the numbers shown on the dyno sheet below, and the boat that it powered on the Rogue River in Southern Oregon… Note how well the water to air intercooler worked by looking at the inlet air temp and air temp after the I/C.. Absolutely.. We just need some decent weather and dry pavement.. Stay tuned.. this weekend looks promising…

DUSTIN!!! WOOHOO.. Finally a member of Hybrid… (I like the name of your race track in your profile… ) For those who don’t know “burrl”, this is Dustin Rinehart. Savage42, Ron Tyler and myself have mentioned Dustin and his VERY nice 400 SBC Hybrid Z over the years here, but until now hasn’t been a member. Back in the late ‘80’s and early ‘90’s when we were running around in our L-series Z cars, Dustin was the FAST one in our Datsun group with his aptly named “BURRL”, a 400 SBC powered 240Z! His car prompted us to do our own V-8 conversions. Dustin has been to Shasta a few times as well. We both drove down in our Z cars back in ’92 and last year he went down and posted some impressive times drifting the entire course at the Shasta autocross in Dave Lums Twin turbo VG30DETT powered 510 … http://www.datsuns.com/red/index.htm Welcome aboard Dustin. It’s about darn time...